#2533 - Diana Pasulka

The Joe Rogan Experience

This episode of The Joe Rogan Experience features a deep dive into the world of UFOs, extraterrestrial encounters, and the theological and scientific

Key takeaways

• Travis Walton's abduction story has been corroborated by others and he has consistently passed polygraph tests.
• Catholic theology categorizes supernatural experiences into three types: supernatural (miracles), natural (explainable events), and preternatural (unexplained but not necessarily supernatural).
• J.D. Vance's claim that UFOs are demons is based on theological categories but lacks definitive proof.

Main topics

• UFO sightings and abduction experiences
• Catholic theology and the preternatural category

Notable quotes

"The preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this because not all preternatural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative, right?"

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of UFO phenomena, blending theology, history, and speculation about the

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. You know who he is, right? Of course I know who he is. Yeah, yeah, and I believe him. I do too. I mean, he certainly seems believable. I'm, you know, people that tell the same story for decades and decades without any variation to it, it's hard, I mean, you know, I don't know what happened, but all the people that were with him during the time we're talking about for people just listening now, talking about Travis Walton, who was a man who in the 1970s was a logger in Arizona, and he was allegedly, or according to him, abducted by aliens. And the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light. They freaked out, took off. They were driving away, and they were like, we got to go back and get him. We got to go back and get him. They turned around, went back and got him, tried to get him. He was gone. The craft was gone. and he disappeared for five days and then turned up and had this insane story. Yeah, and then he's taken those tests, like... Polygraph tests? Yeah, polygraph tests, like every year or something like that. He takes them regularly, and he always passes them. Well, so do the people that were with him. Yeah, yeah, and I've seen people interview the people that were with him even just recently, and they're like, well, well, whatever, regardless of what I think about, Travis as a person, yeah, that happened. Yeah, one of the guys actually got in a fistfight with him the day of the abduction. The guy did not like him. Like, they hated each other. And then, you know, there were young guys. Yeah. And then he had to testify. And he was like, it happened. Yeah, yeah. Whatever it was. So, yeah, I believe him. And his interpretation has changed a lot, too, through the years. And not the facts. The facts are all the same. but his interpretation of them, like, you know, were they, because he thought they were pretty maligned, like bad, right? He didn't enjoy being abducted, let's put it that way. But then over the years he said, well, maybe something spiritual happened, but I don't know where he's at right now. I haven't seen a recent interview. There's an interesting one that's out now with him and Bob Lazar, sitting across from each other. Oh, wow. Yeah, in a diner. It's very weird. And they're sitting there eating pie talking about, you know, what they think this whole thing is. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. So what's new in the world of all this? Well, a lot, right? Yeah. So the government has been releasing UFO files since May, 2006. And this is something that a lot of people think is really important. And, you know, it's a form of disclosure. They're pushing the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening. They're also wanting. the president to come out and say, yeah, there are these things. I saw J.D. Vance on your show the other day. That was really interesting. He's, of course, I was interested in what he had to say. You kind of pushed back on what he was talking about in terms of calling. I don't want to use that word, the D word, right? Demons? Why don't you want to use that word? Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual and I don't represent my university talking about this, okay? So, I mean, seriously, look what happened to him. So he basically, you know, was honest and said, yeah, I think that these are, you know, demons. Well, you know, that was the headline, Joe. But when you actually listened to what he had to say, it was more complicated. And so I thought that he did a good job of talking about it with you. And if you want, we can talk about that, why he would think that. He is Catholic. I'm Catholic. I do history of Catholicism is part of what I do. By the way, I'm a professor of religious studies at university. So, yeah, so I've been like looking at that. I've been doing Catholic history my whole life. So I started looking into UFO experiences in 2012. And, yeah, so lots of stuff is new, okay? I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say, I think they are demons. Yeah, I can fill that out. Okay. Okay, or fill that in. All right. So he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology. So in Catholic theology, there are generally, if you're looking at anomalous phenomena, which they do, supernatural anomalous phenomena. A lot of weird stuff happens within the history of religions. Okay. So they have categories for understanding this stuff. and the categories include three different categories, basically, three different types of things, supernatural things, which they think can't be explained and that they're like miracles. You know, someone terminally ill prays for a saint's intercession, and then they become healed, and doctors say we can't figure that out. That's supernatural. That's a miracle from God. Okay. That's one category. The other category is the natural. So things that are within nature, we can explain them, you know, everybody knows what a natural kind of event is, hurricanes and things like that. But there are events that cannot be explained but don't merit supernatural, the supernatural category. And those events, by the way, there's a word for it, and they call it the preter natural, okay, the preter natural. And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period. And because they're trying to figure out, you know, if, let's just talk about UFOs. If UFOs are here now, most likely they've been around for a long time. And so whatever cassocks were seeing in the medieval time period, they were, they had categories for trying to understand it, just like we were trying to have too. And so they say, the theologians at the time said, like Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas. He said, okay, the preternatural, these are events that happen, and they're either angelic, like, you know, good things like that or demonic, which are fallen angels, or other things because God has created other things other than, you know, he's created the unseen and the scenes, some things that we can't see. So in the preternatural, there happens to be experiences that people have with things that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted by UFOs. Beings that that, that, appear and disappear, beings that can seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the Preeternatural. And I think that's what J.D. Vance was trying to get at. But why would you call that a demon? Okay. So this is a good question. And that's where I'm going to kind of like help push back on you. And then you could push back on me again. All right. So the fact is, is that we don't know. Okay. We don't know. So there's analogous experiences that people have. Now that I've been doing this since 2012, a long time, it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't prove that they're identical. When you say pattern match, what do you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm talking about what people actually experience. So when people have these experiences, what happens to them? they report things like things appearing and disappearing, luminous lights, okay, lights showing up, aerial phenomena. They also report beings, beings that can somehow read their minds. They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds, okay? These are all things that Catholics who know the history would say, wow, that sounds like this kind of situation. Does that mean it is that situation? There's no, no, we can't say that it is. And that's where your point is relevant. Your point is that how do we know that they're demons? We don't know that they're demons. But it warrants an investigation, I think, into the similarities. The city moves fast, but your vibe, that's different. Sharper, smoother, more alive. The new Honda City isn't just a wild night A pill to My boy The new Honda City Isn't just made to drive It's made to feel The New Honda City All New vibe Okay but when you think about demons Most people think about evil They think about something That does horrible things to you Possession You know Something that causes you to murder people Or something that wants to murder you or something wants to steal your soul, that doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences. What it seems like is you're encountering something that is a superior intelligence of superior technology, something that's very different that communicates telepathically, but they don't seem to have vicious intentions. So I don't understand the distinction. I understand why you would call that a demon. Unless you just using that, in this old school term because the people that were experiencing this supposedly or assumedly when we're talking about ancient times and they didn't have words for it and they didn't know what they were experiencing. They would call that a demon. Yeah. Okay. So this is a really good comment. And this is something that I'd agree with you like before 2016. I'd say, yeah, you're right. What changed? Okay. I did a lot of research. And And what I found was that, let's take an example, because examples are good, a Skin Walker Ranch. So there are a lot of people who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well-known to UFO people who work at Skin Walker Ranch. Okay. So I learned about Skin Walker Ranch pretty early on 2013 or so. And I learned it about it from Gary, Gary Nolan. All right. So he said, he was talking to me about it. He said, yeah, a lot of my friends were working out there and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena. They think it's associated with UFOs because UFOs show up and this and that. And I said, oh, are you going to go out there? And he said, no, I'm not going out there. And so I was like, well, okay, why? And he said, because it's really negative. The things that happen to people, they get something called the hitchhiker. effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with like a haunted place follows you home. Right. I've heard of that before. Yeah, the hitchhiker effect. I think it's called the hitchhiker syndrome or something. And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them who had had UFO experiences. So I would say that no, not all UFO experiences are like that, but enough of them are like that for me not to ever have one. And also to associate the preternatural, that's what I started to understand that, well, the preternatural is still the best category that we have for looking at this because not all preternatural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative, right? Some of this is actually really positive. But the thing, the problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring out. Like, you know, it could be deceptive. This is another thing where Gary Nolan comes in. He was on Tucker Carlson. I don't know, like four years ago or something. And he said, and I've talked to him about this too. Tucker asked him about, well, what do these things, you know, what do they say? And he goes, oh, they lie. They're deceptive. And he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion. Like he's not affiliated with any religion. So, you know. When he said they lie, like what specific? examples as you have of them lying. Okay, so listen, when we start to look at this type of situation with, you know, these experiences and so forth, what a Catholic would do, like what a Catholic priest say would do, would be to identify if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are negative effects, and, you know, because there's criteria for looking at the preternatural. And so So a lot of things that happen are when you have, you know, these abductions, which some people view as positive, but some people don't. They don't like these abductions. So, yeah, they'll say things that aren't true. Like what? I don't know. They'll say, like, okay, I'll take an example. I'm not going to out any experiences that I know, but I know a lot. So at this point I've had like, I don't know, about a thousand people talk to me about their experiences. So one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true. Okay. That means when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous, you know, being or whatnot. And it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right? oh, this is, you know, this is telling me good information. But then they start not to come true. And then if that person makes this public, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit. And that's not a positive thing. Okay, but have you taken any consideration that this person might be mentally ill? Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah. So this idea that they're getting all of these. like whatever it is, visions. I mean, how are they receiving this information? Are they receiving it telepathically? Like when you say prophetic? Yeah, yeah. So the, so they're different. So you ask me what kinds of people, like what they would say, right? Well, if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions, right? How are these visions manifesting themselves in their mind? Yeah, yeah. Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing an event happen? Okay, so there are a variety of ways in which people receive this type of information, like prophetic information. I would say that some people actually see things, and the beings, like, in part telepathically, like mind-to-mind transmission, something, this is going to happen. And then they believe it. Okay, this happens within, like, angel events, like Marian apparitions. It happens to, you know, people. It happens to people in abductions as well. And, you know, I mean, that's what happens to them. They see things. They sometimes have visions in their dreams. So there are a variety of ways that people can get this information. Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams. Like how can they make a distinction between just dreams like, oh, Godzilla was chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran into my cousin. We hid in his basement. And then I woke up. Like that's just a dream. That's not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by some entity, how are they making the distinction between the two of them if both of them exist at the same time in the same person's mind? Yeah, yeah. So within the culture of, within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same, right? They're either bad dreams or good dreams or new. Within, there are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams. And within the Western culture, there have been times when people have distinguished different types of dreams. Like, say, you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's going to be big, he's a prophet, and he has dreams where he's able to tell the future. And he's able to distinguish between those dreams. So within certain cultures, even cultures today, like different religious cultures, they have distinctions. The Martu in Australia, they have, you know, they talk about the dream time. So we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category. And granted, that's true. In terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walton's not mentally ill. Right, but Travis Walton is not having prophecies. No, I know, but he's one that doesn't. And there are others who do. I understand, but we got to this place because you were talking about beings that deceive. Yes, so I'm saying that not all of them deceive, but I'm saying that I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to ask you, how are they deceiving? Well, I just told you. So they'll be giving people information about the future, some of which is correct and some of which is not. Okay. So how are they giving them this information? They're giving it to them telepathically? or is it coming to them in a vision and a dream? It's very different things, right? Yeah, but it could be both depending on the instance. Right, but if it's in a dream, how do they know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream? That's my point. No, I know that, yeah. They're being deceived. Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction. And so that's where you need a... The abductees won't make that distinction. Because they've never had this happen to them before. So, of course, they're going to think, this is true. But my position is that be careful because we don't know if it's true or if it's not. Right. But I mean, how are you making the distinction between what is just their imagination and them being deceived? This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. I'm sure you've heard of Blue Chew by now. But let me tell you what they've been up to. They've been on a mission to get you bricked up for years and now the number one brand for better sex. Over five million happy men have bought Blue Chew for Borked up. better sex, and you know what? Girls love the results, too. Their new four-and-one chewable blue-chew gold is for performance and passion. Two ingredients maximize blood flow for stronger, longer-lasting boners, and two, get you in the mood. It's designed to dissolve under your tongue for fast results. They are number one for a reason, and we have a special deal for our listeners right now buy two months of blue-chew gold and get the third free with My Code Rogan. You'll also receive free overnight shipping. Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. This ad and the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. Right. That's the good question. I don't know. So how is Gary Nolan saying they lie? Well, he's taking data and he's saying that they're saying this information, you know, they're telling these people this information and it's wrong information. And so he's not making, you know, he's not trying to make a big claim. He's just basically saying, you know, Tucker asks him why, you know, what kind of things are they saying? And he said, well, they're being deceived, right? They say deceitful things. And my point, by the way, getting back to the original. But it would be, wait, wait, wait. Go ahead. No, no, I know you're frustrated. But the original question here is what is J.D. Vance talking about when he's saying these are demons. And I'm trying to explain that he's. referencing this theological category that has been around for a long time. And that is actually quite useful in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences now. I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that these are like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't want them to happen to me. And I don't wish them upon anyone. But some people... You wouldn't want to meet an alien? Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting. Which one would you like to meet? Well, I don't know. I mean, hypothetically, like I'm not sure. I like to put it out there. I'm down. If they want to meet me, I'm down. Okay. I'd love to meet one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not scared. They don't seem to steal you. They don't take you away and never bring you back. They just interact with you. I'm down with that. I mean, we have to distinguish between, yeah, go for it. You don't want that? You wouldn't want that? Look, if you are. A person who writes books about aliens. Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat about aliens. I write about the religion about aliens. Yes, but a lot of the subject matter has to do with extraterrestrial intelligence or whatever it is. Yeah, we don't know what it is. It might not be extraterrestrial. It might be interdimensional. Yeah, yeah. Or it might be here, something that's of a superior intellect that's been here all along. And it might be something within the category of the. preternatural. Right. Yeah. So my point is that if it is, whatever it is, you're right. I've been studying it. And I can say that if those are the aliens, no, I don't want to meet them. If they're the ones that like people have come and told me about and said, I wish this never happened to me, you know, then no, I don't want to meet those aliens. Right. But that's, it's different people, right? And different people have different tolerances for experiences. And when someone says, I wish this didn't happen to me, it's because they can't handle it. And whereas other people might be able to handle it. Maybe. But like look at the things that the fighter pilots, like David Fravor and... They don't seem to have a problem with it. Like they're not saying, I wish this never happened to me. No, but they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous. I wouldn't want it to... First, I hope that this isn't an enemy technology. Yes. They're like, if that's our, if our enemies have this technology, it's done. It's game over. Yeah, yeah. So that's scary. And if it's not, then it's definitely something that we should take notice of, right? So if that's what's in our skies. And there have been reports of people. There is an Australian report of pilots who have passed away because of this type of thing, like they died and so forth. So. How so? I can't actually remember what it is, but it's a report of an Australian young guy who was, who encountered something in the sky. And he was never found again. He was just, you know, what happened? I don't know. And there are. He disappeared in the sky? Yeah. And there are. With a jet? I don't know if he disappeared with the jet. I wish you knew more about this story. I know, I know. Maybe someone could get it up for us and we can look at it. It's a really famous. It's a really famous Australian report. Here it is. It's 1978, 20-year-old Australian pilot, Frederick Valentike. Valentique. I think it's Valentic. Valentic. Took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait. Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valentique reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights and metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds. Then came his final chilling words. it's not an aircraft. After that, he vanished completely. His Cessna was never found, despite extensive searches and no trace of him was ever recovered. Radar had detected another object in the area but never interacted with other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valentique crashed, got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious. Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances, and the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them. So there's one guy. I don't know. You can go meet that. one, Joe. And you know what? I think that... Maybe he's like in a cool place right now. All right. Just chilling. Having a good time in another dimension hanging out with these creatures and they're explaining to him the future of the universe. But you know that the thing about what I do is I have a lot of information that people impart to me that is that I can't actually talk about. Right? And that sadly that happens to people in... Because they ask you not to? Yeah. They say I need help with this or this is my experience. and I don't want it public and so forth. I mean, even without disclosing their name? No, no. I know who they are. And so I've had people who are pilots talk to me. Is this, by the way, coffee? This is ice cold coffee. How is it cold? It's ice cold. I boiled it twice. This coffee. I'll try to make it again. I mean, I made it today. It's boiled the water. That's crazy. It's literally ice cold. That's weird. Are you sure? Yeah, I hit the button twice. It definitely didn't work. It banged and everything. It must be broken. I mean, it's crazy cold. It's like cold water. I'll start it over. How weird. Here, I got more information. A couple more descriptions from that pilot. Maybe it's aliens. They're deceiving us. They fuck with Jamie's cold water. 7.06 p.m. Valentique contacted the Melbourne air traffic controller, Steve Robie, reporting an unidentified aircraft, trailing him at about 4,500 feet. For the next several minutes, he described a long, shiny, metallic object with a green light. the craft appeared to be orbiting above him, who was moving at high speed and playing some sort of game, in quotes. His engine became rough idling and coughing, his final words, that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It's hovering and it's not an aircraft. The transmission ended with 17 seconds of metallic scraping or keying sounds, then silence. So, yeah, so this isn't, so pilots and families of pilots have told me things. similar to this, not as dramatic maybe. Can you get another cup too? I poured a cold coffee in this. So, similar. And so I guess I just, you know, it looks pretty grim. That guy. That one. Yeah. Yeah. And there are others. That's like the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I've always wondered, like, how much of that movie was, there's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters. And even figures like Jacques Valet. Jacques Valet plays the French scientist in that movie is based on Jacques Filet. Yes. And so, and there's scenes where these pilots show up that from like World War I, you know, and they've been gone forever and now they're back and they haven't lost any time. I've always wondered, like, how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore or whatever the government knew. Yeah, I think that it's based on stories and things that they, like Jacques has heard and so forth. And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive too. So his, you know, his idea, he spent, of course, his whole life studying this. And he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception. Yeah. I think I read that one. Yeah. So, you know, once you do... I read a bunch of his books. John Keel. John Keel, it doesn't have a good idea about these things at all. Thinks they're pretty nasty. doesn't want them in you know the mothman prophecy yeah so he wrote that and that movie is based on his life um and he's he's down on it he's a dumer with respect to aliens how so what is his perspective okay i'm going to give it to you right now all right okay give it right now all right so he calls this it it reminds me of catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it It's called basically the super spectrum. Okay? And it's here with us now, just like you said. It's around us. But you and I can't see it. But some people do see it. And some people interact with it and have, like, it breaks into their reality. And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky because all the things that happen to them, like men in black show up. He thinks things like the beginning of all religions is basically about someone. who had an interface with a para being, like one of these para humans, in the super spectrum. So it's kind of like an invisible reality all around us, according to John Keel. John Keel was a pal of Jacques Valais. He's passed away. But his books are really amazing. And if you want to get an idea about the super spectrum and the phenomena, you should watch that movie of his called Mothman prophecies. It's really good. And so this super spectrum? Yeah. Like what does he think that is? So he thinks that it's a, it's like a space all around us. It's been here forever. It controls us. It controls humanity because it sends things like he thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks Virgin Mary apparitions are part of it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So any kind of woo thing is there in the super spectrum. And sometimes some people have the ability to see what's in the super spectrum. And he thinks they're cursed. Now, he thinks angels are part of the super spectrum. So he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it and the bad things. He said they're all bad. If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad. So again, he started, you know, he was kind of like a Charles Ford type guy. So he started to get a lot of these, you know, these events. and you study them and everything like that. And over years, he developed a theory that these were nasty things and that they were, like, even if they appeared good and that they were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come from the super spectrum. Obviously not that part about how it's like Catholicism. But, you know, religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the super spectrum. So what Jacques talks about in his books, it sounds very similar to. you know, his control mechanism and is very similar to John Keel's idea. Well, it seems like just speculating, but it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in. That we as human beings operate. Do you want to take this, Jamie? Do you need this? Okay. That we operate in this world of the senses that we possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all that, you know, smell. we have these senses for understanding what's around us, but only those. And it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet. That's all around us all the time. And so if there is the potential for other realms or other dimensions and these things, exist in some sort of a space where they can interact and traverse in between these dimensions and interact with us at will whenever we can. We're kind of left in this speculation space where when people have these very novel and unique experiences like Travis Walton and then we're supposed to go, okay, did that happen? It didn't happen to me, but is he telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If he is, well, let's see if he lies about other things. Well, he doesn't seem to lie. He's been around a long time. Travis has been around for a long time telling that story, like almost 50 years now. Right? Like, when was his experience? I thought it, yeah, a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. You would think he would have a few other fibs. I agree. I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah, yeah. If it was a lie, and I don't think it is. But if it was, that's a big lie to have. only one? Yeah. Only one crazy cockamamie lie from 1970, whatever it was. See, what you're doing is your, this is part of their criteria for assessing these kinds of events. Okay? It's called, you know, taking time. Right. So over time. So when an anomalous event happens within like, say, Christian culture or whatnot. Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate it. The cold was all right, but it's like, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's cold. That is weird. Thank you. Yeah. Dude, something's going on. Put your finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's cold like cold water. I understand what happened. Oh, do you? What happened? You just hit the start button and make it boil? I didn't hit the start button. Oh. User error. But it beeped. I thought you said. I did. I did. I beeped because it was turning off. Okay, this is hot. Here we go. My bad. Where were we? categories. Oh yeah, yeah. You were basically just making a move. Once a minute. A strategy. Yeah, sure. Thank you. Yeah, like looking at something. Like, I mean, that's my perspective on Bob Lazard. You know, Bob Lazard has been telling the exact same story forever. I've had many conversations with Bob. I've had dinner with him. I've hung out with him a few times. I've dinner with him several times. I hung out with him in the studio. He showed us that most recent documentary before it was released with Luigi, the guy who made it with him. I don't, you know, I know a lot of people that are full of shit. I mean, a lot of people that are full shit. I've had people sit here in front of me and then somewhere in the conversation, I'm like, oh, this person's not being honest. This is, this is some, they've got an agenda, they're pushing something. Or they're pretending they know some things because it sounds good, but they don't really know some things. I get real suspicious to people. I'm not suspicious of him. It's weird, you know. He's obviously incredibly intelligent and very well studied when it comes to, science when it comes to, you know, whatever it is, whether it's elements, particles, when, you know, he understands what he's talking about in a very deep way. And when he's explaining these experiences, when he talks about this craft and his experiences at S4, he seems to be telling the truth. And then, since then, we know, first of all, that no one knew about S4 back then. But he did. He knew where it was. He knew exactly where it was. And he knew about the flights that take people out there. He had a total understanding of Los Alamos Labs. He mean, he went there. He knew the people that worked there. He knew how to get around the building. When George Knapp took him there, he knew everything about the facility. Yet they claimed that he never worked there. And then they found him on the employee roster. So he did work there. So they lied. and they tried to cover up. Why would they lie and say that he didn't work there? Yeah. Well, probably because he was involved in some shit that they wanted to keep secret. Yeah, yeah, that's right. There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob Lazar story. And then when you see some of the footage that was released, particularly after the New York Times story of 2017, the footage that's released mirrors the way he describes this craft operating. Yeah. And so what do he guess? correctly in 1989? Those are all good points. So, yeah, I told you last time I was on here that Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book, told me that he was the real deal. Even though I had people who, you know, Eric Davis, you know, telling me, no, Diana, this guy's, no, no, I believe Tyler. So everything that you say, I agree with, yeah. I don't know. I mean. You're always going to have people when you have a fantastic story like Bob Lazar story. You're always going to have people that want to say that the guy's full of shit, that there's something wrong. He's lying. It's not true. It's fake. But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who might know, right? So he's a physicist who studies this and even briefs Congress on. But no. So I don't know. I tend to when Tyler tells me things and now that he's, everything he said kind of has come true, I believe him. You know, I believe that is true. But if Bob Lazar is telling the truth, it's so disturbing the idea that there's a group of humans that operate in our government that have information that the general public does not have and that they're the gatekeepers of this information. And they've determined for whatever reason that either it's not wise to tell people or it wouldn't benefit them to tell people, like whatever it is. I think it's a crime against humanity. I think if you're a person that knows for a fact that there's something here other than us that either visits us or exists amongst us or travels here from another dimension, I think you have an obligation to tell people. But what if it's not that? What if it's actually something we've created and we don't want anybody to know about it? And Lazar happened to find out. And that's why we don't want, you know, I mean, think about it from the perspective of people who are trying to keep American citizens. safe. So just to push back a bit. Okay. Go ahead. You know, what if that's it? So if that's the case, why would they bring a guy in to tell them, how does this work? Show us how this works. Because that was his job. Oh, yeah. They brought him in and said, tell us how this works. And he was like, what are you talking about? This is ours. It has an American flag sticker on it. Like, don't you know how it works? Why are you asking me how it works? This seems kind of crazy. That's not what you did. do if you have super advanced technology, what you do is you bring in people to improve it and make it better. You don't bring in people and say, how does it work? Yeah. Okay. Wait. I have a couple of comments about that. Okay. So when I