How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Entitled Ft. Dr. Becky

The Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Dr. Becky Kennedy joins Jefferson Fisher to discuss how parents can raise resilient, non-entitled children by embracing 'supported struggle'

Key takeaways

• Resilience is built through supported struggle, not avoidance or shame.
• The key to effective parenting isn't perfection—it's repair after missteps.

Main topics

• Building resilience in children
• Setting healthy boundaries without permission-seeking

Notable quotes

You cannot go through a life of a road being paved for you and expect when you're older to know how to navigate twists and turns.

The best feeling in the world is when you think you can't do something and then watch yourself make progress on it.

Conclusion

Raising capable, resilient children means embracing struggle with supp

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) How do you like to communicate boundaries to kids? Speaker 1 (0:03) People really misunderstand boundaries because boundary is something you tell your kid you will do and it requires your kid to do nothing. But most parents say I've overcorrected. We think we say no, but we actually ask our kids permission. Speaker 2 (0:15) We do this weird okay Speaker 1 (0:16) at the end. Can I watch another show? Look, it's not good for you, okay? Can I watch another show? No, sweetie, TV is over. Then stop talking. Speaker 2 (0:25) How do we build capable, resilient humans? You Speaker 1 (0:29) cannot go through a life of a road being paved for you and expect when you're older to know how to navigate twists and turns. So the hardest moments when your kid is struggling are the moments where resilience gets built. And I think supported struggle comes from two things. The first is I believe you, but we have dropped the second piece, which is the... Speaker 2 (0:50) What is one of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to parenthood? That Speaker 1 (0:54) you have to get it right all the time. Repair is really the most important part of good parenting. And you can't repair if you don't mess up. Speaker 2 (1:01) How do you know if you're spoiling your kid? What do you say to your kid when they say, I can't? What can a parent do to make sure that their kid is not entitled? Speaker 1 (1:09) The best way to not have an entitled kid, and I could be concrete about this, is to... Speaker 2 (1:15) How do we build Speaker 1 (1:17) capable, Speaker 2 (1:18) resilient... Humans. Anti Speaker 1 (1:23) -fragile children. Yeah, yeah. 100%. Speaker 2 (1:26) Capable, resilient. Speaker 1 (1:27) Good. Speaker 2 (1:28) Not just kids, humans. Speaker 1 (1:29) Yep. Speaker 2 (1:30) Because I have two, you have three. And I am, it keeps me up. Speaker 1 (1:36) Yep. Speaker 2 (1:36) All the time. Thinking of, am I ruining everything? And it doesn't take but a few therapy sessions of my own to go, okay, am I doing everything the right way? So I, the question I have for you is, Is there a line between building capacity and sturdiness, is your word, and just letting them struggle? In other words, where's the line between letting that balance fall? Speaker 1 (2:10) Yep. So do you want me to just answer that? Okay. My one-liner for how we do that? No. Speaker 2 (2:16) Yeah, no, no, no. I don't need, I'm not worried about one-liners, by the way. Speaker 1 (2:19) Yeah, no. So I actually, a story came to mind. Like, I actually think I tend to think about my biggest ideas in these very specific moments where then I kind of from there back out like a bigger principle. So I think about a moment when my oldest, who's now almost 15, was, I'm going to say he's three, and he was very into puzzles when he was younger. He was doing a puzzle. And it was hard, right? And he then broke down at some point, melting down. And I don't know if you've had this, one of your kids, just do it. Do it for me. I can't do it. It's too hard. That Speaker 2 (2:52) was this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (2:53) All the time. Good. That was just a check to make sure. Right. Yeah. Are you really a parent? Speaker 2 (2:58) Yeah. Okay. Speaker 1 (2:59) Okay. And so, look, there are some times we don't have the energy reserves. And I just want to start with that. Me too, as a parent, there are days, whatever the... equivalent is. Yeah, I'll do that puzzle for you. Fine. Have an extra show. Like that's fine once in a while. But if we think about what builds resilience and capability, you cannot go. through a life of a road being paved for you and expect when you're older to know how to navigate twists and turns. Like it just, the math doesn't even math. It doesn't make sense. And so there's fixing the issue with the puzzle. And then I think sometimes, and you kind of said this, we go to the other extreme where I say to my kid, this isn't a big deal. Stop being such a baby. Do the puzzle or don't. I don't care. Speaker 2 (3:43) I Speaker 1 (3:44) mean. I guess my kid is left with a struggle. I have never found that particularly helpful in my own life to inspire more hard work. I find it shameful. I find myself alone. So I just want to share something I said to him because it kind of did form a foundation for me of how I think about resilience. I said, look, first of all, this is a hard puzzle. Like you're 100 % this is hard. You're 100 % right. This is hard. But I want to tell you why I'm not going to do a piece for you. Speaker 1 (4:12) I think the best feeling in the world is when you think you can't do something and then you watch yourself make progress on it. And I'm not going to take that feeling away from you. And you can take a break. You can take a breath. I know at some point that feeling is going to come and it's going to be amazing. So let's take a moment together. I'll watch. I'll step out. At some point, you're going to finish this. And what I think is kind of a bigger principle there. is kind of this idea of what I would call supported struggle, not exit from struggle, not shame. And support is not solutions. They're two very different things. And I think supported struggle comes from two things. And I think we've overcorrected to just the first. The first is I believe you. I believe you this is hard. I believe you this puzzle is hard. I believe you going to soccer practice is hard. I believe you it's hard to do the bonus problem on your math homework when you don't know if you're going to get it right. I believe you. But we have dropped the second piece, which is the I believe in you. That if you can't see a more capable version of your kid than they can access in themselves, you've collapsed into their sense of their own fragility with them. And then that has kind of profound consequences for the rest of their life. Speaker 2 (5:28) I have so many of my own flashbacks recently of how quickly my kids sometimes can just give up on something. Or you hear, I know yours is a puzzle. My daughter, who's six, she's really into creating these like rubber band bracelets. They're everywhere. She's made the little ones, the little ones. And she's made. gobs of them at our house for everybody. Anybody she can think of, she's making this bracelet. But she was trying to do this really intricate design. And of course I hear her upstairs. Oh, this is her. She's going, oh, come on. Like that's her upstairs. Like you can hear she'd go, oh. And of course I go up there and I wanted to in that moment, just go, okay, this is hard. Let me, let me help you with this. Speaker 2 (6:25) And long story short, I didn't. The question is, is there ever an okay time when your kid's going through a hard moment to rescue them? Speaker 1 (6:35) Yes, because I think there's, if you think about struggle, let's just say, or frustration as a bell curve. Resilience, this isn't truly scientific, but my guess is resilience is built in the two to eight zone. When you're at a 10 out Speaker 2 (6:51) of Speaker 1 (6:51) 10, no, sorry, like a level two. to a level 10. When you're feeling, let's say, frustration or overwhelm at any age at a level 10, and you're frozen in fear, and you're having a panic attack, you're in survival mode. Often in that situation, and this can happen. I was actually just talking to, you know, a couple about this. Their kid right now is young and likes to play soccer, but going to soccer practice and joining the team finds it intimidating. And they're like, we're not going to give into this. We're not one of those parents who's like, okay, fine. We'll just get you private lessons forever. No, it's not us. And by the way, two called soccer players. So there's history, right? Okay. So they're like, we're going, right? And they had a little difference of opinion. The mom was saying, we're going to go. And the truth is, what am I going to do? Make my kid play. We're going to go. We're going to sit. I feel like over time. And that was like that. No. My kid is going to practice and it's like, if you don't go today, no dessert tonight, no screens tonight, no this. By the way, this has been tried and actually the kid just freezes more because now that kid feels like a huge failure at soccer and a huge failure in their home. Is that rescuing to not make them go to soccer? But I think the difference is rescuing in that situation is probably. If you have the means, we'll just give you private soccer lessons forever so you never have to deal with the kind of anxiety of what if I'm not the best one. I don't think rescuing is saying, as an example, we're going to go to soccer. Look, I don't know if you're going to join, but we're going to go and we're going to sit there because when we sign up for something in this family, we work toward doing it. kind of think you're the type of kid who takes a little bit longer to warm up and that's fine. And I feel like maybe at one of the practices, you might feel ready. That was my daughter for years, for years, a slow to warm up kid. And I think what we take away in the rescuing is we remove kids from the situations that would build resilience. It's just that some kids have a longer timeline. And frankly, we find it inconvenient. I'm like, is that really how I'm going to spend? every birthday party with my kids sitting on my lap into the last five minutes and then they cry that the birthday party was too short. I spent two years like that. Speaker 2 (9:09) But Speaker 1 (9:10) I know my kid wouldn't have gotten to the place of being able to join and function if I just said, you know what? She's not a kid who can go to birthday parties. Speaker 2 (9:20) You Speaker 1 (9:21) know, you can't skip that step. Speaker 2 (9:23) I like what you said a minute ago. And that was, I'm not going to take the progress away from you. Yes. I think that was really. I think every time there's been that little, that puzzle that was really probably a little bit too hard. Or maybe the Legos, it was a little bit outside of the age range. And I know they can do it. Speaker 1 (9:42) I Speaker 2 (9:42) know he can. I know she can. And if I just. And the miracle that I have found that's worked in my life is I want you to put it down and pick it up tomorrow and watch. You'll do it even better. And there's something about me telling them that. And it comes from musical instruments I teach them to play or little bitty things that if I say, okay, then let's put it down tomorrow. I bet you'll do it even better. Speaker 1 (10:07) Exactly. Sometimes you need a break. That is legitimate. Right? And also, I think what you're doing so beautifully, Jefferson, is you're doing that I believe in you part. You're sharing. a version of them, the kid who can do it better tomorrow, Speaker 2 (10:20) that Speaker 1 (10:20) honestly, they cannot access in themselves. This is the same in adulthood. If you're in a job and, oh my goodness, I'm being asked to do this presentation and I've never done that in front of a group. And your boss says, look, you're right. By the way, when you go, you're going to be nervous. Let's just get that out of the way. I gave this to you because I actually know you're going to be able to crush it. That feels so helpful versus the boss who says, oh, you're nervous. You know what? Speaker 2 (10:45) Yeah. I'll Speaker 1 (10:45) give it to that other person. You're like, oh, now I'm going to be more nervous the next time. Speaker 2 (10:51) They're absolutely going to be more nervous the next time. Before we keep going, a quick word from Factor. One thing that I have truly loved over the past six months or so is eating these Factor. meals. These meals are microwavable. They are chef-inspired. They are dietitian-designed, easy meals that are anywhere from 30 to 40 grams of protein, which is awesome for me. And I always know they have a really good protein and vegetable that comes with it. They're easy. I pop them in. I've been eating them for lunch, I kid you not, probably for the past five weeks every day. And I look forward to every time I get a new shipment of them. They're fast, they're easy, and they really genuinely taste good. Better than any other microwavable meal I've certainly ever had. They are fantastic and I cannot get enough of them. And so I am, they get a big thumbs up from Jefferson. They have at least a hundred different nutrient dense menu items that you can choose from. They come right to your door, easy to put in your fridge and just pop in and two minutes, they're ready. Go to factormeals.com slash Jefferson 50 off. That's Jefferson 5-0. Speaker 1 (12:13) I Speaker 2 (12:14) am curious of your thoughts on, I'm going to set the stage. Okay. In the South, where I was raised, Speaker 2 (12:26) The select baseball teams are insane-o. They are nuts, okay? It's fall ball and seasons. It's all year round, and most of these boys don't want to be doing it. They want to be playing with friends, and they have parents that are, no, you will, and I know some that are, if you don't perform or you don't hit, there's no... you know, call it iPad. There's no, there's always like a, we'll take you out. There's ice cream. There's always some kind of. No Speaker 1 (12:57) clothes, no dinner. Speaker 2 (12:58) Yeah. Something like that. No bath. There's always a Speaker 1 (13:03) carrot Speaker 2 (13:04) on the stick. And I am curious. I'm sure I could package this differently, but I want to know to the kids who don't want to go to, to the ball practice, who don't want to show up and. practice the sport that they're in. How do these parents handle that? Speaker 1 (13:22) You know, I have a nuanced opinion of this. I think if I talked to you a year ago, I would have felt really confident in my opinion. And then I actually did this series of interviews on my pod with athletes, right? Like Tony Finau, Russell Wilson. And Speaker 2 (13:37) I Speaker 1 (13:38) kind of expected, to be honest, I don't know why, them all to say, yeah, it was that kid at the gym. I was this. Across the board, they had a parent, okay, who was like, Speaker 1 (13:48) Let's go, you know, get up, because one of my kids sometimes I'm like, hello, go practice like you could be better. And that should come from you. And it was just interesting. Not like my any of my kids have the raw talent of any of those humans. Let's just be perfectly clear. But I was thinking they had raw talent. And I guess they also. didn't have that. And I remember one of them saying it was probably not until age 13, 14, after honestly that habit of waking up in the morning, then I started doing that on my own. I was like, oh, 13, 14. Okay. Speaker 2 (14:19) Now. Speaker 1 (14:21) If I zoom out from that, I think we're really asking, like, what are we doing today? And is that in line with a goal that's going to matter? Or is this going to even be in line with helping that goal happen in the Speaker 2 (14:33) future? Speaker 1 (14:34) If anything, overtime is more of our goal for our kid than our kid's goal for themselves. Speaker 2 (14:41) The Speaker 1 (14:41) gig usually gets up at some point. Because at some point, a kid gets old enough and they realize... I'm not scared of you. You can't put me in timeouts. I can kind of get my own food from the pantry. You've helped me get so strong at the sport. I actually could arm wrestle you and win. What are you going to do? The only kids that doesn't happen for are extreme people pleasers who seem perfectly in line until they're about 20 something and then usually are the ones who do like have a kind of early midlife crisis, right? Of massive anxiety. So I think where I'm landing is there's a balance. Kids often don't inherently want to do hard things that are going to be helpful in the long term. They want to do fun things that are easy today. By the way, probably me and you do too. It's not a Speaker 2 (15:35) kid Speaker 1 (15:35) thing. It's Speaker 2 (15:36) a Speaker 1 (15:36) human thing. Right. And so I just think there's a dance. Like, I don't love lording. I definitely don't like rewards or consequences for something that to some degree your home run is a little out of your control. Like I remember when my one of my kids played baseball. One of the things I tried to say at the end was I love the way, honestly, when one of your friends dropped a pop fly. I know that's frustrating because it's true. You probably would have caught it. I watched you turn away and not say anything. I watched you say, nice try. That was amazing. That feels more. in control than whether my kid, you know, Speaker 2 (16:12) hits Speaker 1 (16:12) a home run. But I think you're talking about there's a lot of pressure. Who is this for? Is this our unlived dreams playing out in our child as the pawn? Is this at all coming from a child? And what I know is if it's 100 % parent and 0 % child or anything near that ratio, that usually ends up blowing up in a big way when the stakes are higher. Speaker 2 (16:35) And definitely comes out later. That's Speaker 1 (16:36) what I'm saying. Right, exactly. And the stakes being higher usually aren't about baseball. Yeah, I don't want to, I'm at college and it's, you know, whatever Christmas break, I don't want to go home to my parents' house. I'm going to go home with my friend because I just feel kind of like a performance monkey in that house and I don't have to do that. And next thing Speaker 2 (16:53) you know, they're 40 in a therapist chair talking about when it all started at that practice. Now, I do know what it's like when my son, who's, he's great naturally. great at soccer yeah Speaker 1 (17:04) he Speaker 2 (17:04) just didn't want to practice i get that yeah Speaker 1 (17:06) i Speaker 2 (17:07) don't blame you practice not all that fun uh you want the immediate win yeah Speaker 1 (17:11) and Speaker 2 (17:12) it got to where it was okay i can set all this up Speaker 2 (17:17) we're not going to be some pro athlete at soccer. So I just want this to be fun. So if that means we get outside and we're just moving our bodies. Speaker 1 (17:24) That's right. Speaker 2 (17:24) That's great. But I had some friends that he wanted to motivate his son to go after the ball in basketball. His son was really timid. He wants him to go touch the ball. And if he shot it, he was going to get a new video game. And that really bothered me. Speaker 1 (17:41) Yeah. Speaker 2 (17:42) I was like, I don't. I don't, that feels misaligned to me. Speaker 1 (17:46) I, yeah, look, and I, I don't love that either because I think it, again, confuses, like we're getting in each other's lanes. I'm kind of, as a parent, really getting in my kid's lane. Again, so for most kids, youth sports are about building character traits. Speaker 2 (18:01) Most. Speaker 1 (18:02) But most kids are not going to beat Russell Wilson and Tony Finau, no matter what. There's just very few people. So it's about learning sportsmanship. It's about learning how to work hard. It's about bouncing back from failure. It's about sticking with the basketball game when you're down by 12 points. It's about going to the game when you know you're going to get crushed. I love that. When you know you're going to get crushed by a team by 40 points, there are kids who are sick every time. Speaker 2 (18:25) Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:26) not my kids. Again, they're going with that cough because you've got to learn, you've got to show up even when you know something's going to be hard, you know? And so I've never Speaker 2 (18:34) heard it explained that way. And I think that's, I think that's wonderful that, that, that those kinds of team sports, they're about building character traits. Speaker 1 (18:41) That's it. Speaker 2 (18:42) And that's it. And Speaker 1 (18:43) by the way. I hear one of my friends in my ear being like, Becky, you talk a good game. When you watch your kid not be aggressive at a sport, it is the most triggering thing. So I'm Speaker 2 (18:53) just saying it's so Speaker 1 (18:55) hard. And sometimes it's just framing it in a different way and giving yourself something to look for that's a little different. It stops us from, you know, moving too far in that direction. Yeah. Speaker 2 (19:06) Having to. Yeah. Well, they have, you know, baseball dads. They have soccer moms. They have all these the little leagues of the world that. I think what you said is exactly right of who are we doing this for? Is it your unlived dreams? Are you driving your kid's car? Or are you allowing them to do it? And I Speaker 1 (19:27) have two more things to say about you sports because it's actually one of my favorite things. So number one, what you're saying about your son with soccer, where I think the mismatch comes and then both the resentment and aggression is, okay, my kid doesn't really want to practice on their own. Speaker 2 (19:38) But Speaker 1 (19:39) I am paying for two private lessons for them. But they practice 0%. besides those lessons. I am putting in, as a parent, so much more effort to my kids' sports than they are. And then I end up yelling, you don't care. I think it's okay to set up a system. And I'm just using private lessons as an example. It could not be private lessons.