#205: Training For Victory - Did Special Forces Really Win In Iraq & Afghanistan? Retired Colonel Frank Sobchak

The Jedburgh Podcast

In Episode #205 of The Jedburgh Podcast, retired Green Beret Colonel Frank Sobchak discusses the principles behind successful special operations missions in Iraq and Afghanistan,

Key takeaways

• Success in combat is determined more by trust, relationships, and leadership than by technological superiority or firepower.
• Language proficiency is valuable but not always essential; speaking a language enables cultural understanding and effective advising even without perfect fluency.

Main topics

• The role of language and cultural understanding in Special Forces effectiveness
• Building partner forces as a long-term strategy for sustainable victory

Notable quotes

"Success is rarely determined by firepower alone, but by trust, relationships, and leaders willing to invest in others."

Conclusion

Colonel Sobchak's insights underscore that true victory in modern warfare lies not in overwhelming force but in building enduring partnerships

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:02) How do we define success on the battlefield? While many have labeled America's efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan as failures, that narrative ignores some of the most remarkable successes ever achieved by U.S. Army Special Forces. In this episode, I sat down with retired Green Beret Colonel Frank Sobchak, professor at the U.S. Naval War College and author of Training for Victory, to discuss the principles behind one of Special Forces' most enduring missions, building partner forces capable of securing their own future. Drawing on decades of operational experience and extensive historical research, Frank explains why success is rarely determined by firepower alone, but by trust, relationships, and leaders willing to invest in others. We explore why language, cultural understanding, consistency, and strategic empathy are far more than soft skills. They're combat multipliers that determine whether an advisory mission succeeds or fails. Frank breaks down why partnering alongside allied forces in combat remains the... gold standard for developing capable militaries, how advisor continuity builds the trust required for honest conversations, and why empowering local leaders from the very beginning creates lasting successes long after American forces have departed. Our conversation also challenges the conventional narrative surrounding Iraq and Afghanistan by highlighting overlooked success stories like the Iraqi Special Operations Forces, an organization built through years of patient advising and partnership. Speaker 2 (1:29) Finally, we examine what Frank calls Cold War 2.0 and how the changing character of warfare, from drones and artificial intelligence to digital surveillance, only reinforces the enduring concept of the human domain. Training for victory reminds us that while the tools of war will continue to evolve, trust, leadership, and strong alliances will always remain the decisive advantage for Korean parades and U.S. special operations. The Dead Bird Podcast is brought to you by OneBree, enabling military leaders to make innovative, informed, and deliberate decisions faster than ever before. Superhuman Command wins wars. Special thanks to the Sailing Museum and National Sailing Hall of Fame in Newport, Rhode Island for hosting this conversation. Follow the Jedberg Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform, read on our website, and watch the full video version on YouTube as we show you why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge. Speaker 1 (2:28) Frank, welcome to the Jedberg Podcast. Franz, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Well, we're going to talk about history. Speaker 2 (2:37) We're going to talk about your book, Training for Victory, which was recently released, where you chronicle some very well-known special forces missions over the last couple of decades. But to set the scene, we had to start here and come down to, or up really for me, but down for you. to Newport, Rhode Island. So a special place for you, a special place for me. We're really honored to be here in the Sailing Museum and the Sailing Hall of Fame, who have very graciously given us their deck today. But, I mean, what a cool place. I really appreciate them allowing us the opportunity to sit over here because, I mean, this is where I grew up. So I learned how to sail out here in this harbor many, many, I guess, decades ago. But, you know, still come here. A lot of my family is still here. And this is one of my favorite places on earth. And you're here now at the Naval War College after your career as a Green Beret and Special Forces. And you are educating the current, I would say the next generation, but the current generation of leaders serving among our ranks at the War College on what it takes to truly win in combat today. So great setting, Speaker 1 (3:47) great book. We're going to talk about it all. Thanks. Yeah, it is an amazing setting. So it's just like. You know, you got to pinch yourself being here. Speaker 2 (3:54) And Speaker 1 (3:55) I need one of these yachts. One Speaker 2 (3:56) day, one day I need a bigger boat. But let's talk about training for victory though. So, and a little bit about yourself. You spent early days of your career in 5th Special Forces Group, spent time at SOCOM, worked in legislative affairs, helped write the history of the Iraq war, which I definitely want to ask you about. And when you look at what it takes to be successful, How special operations, primarily special forces, green berets, task organize themselves in order to be successful on a variety of different combat and non-combat related activities. You laid out a couple of different principles, language importance, security force assistance, the importance of J-sets or joint combined exercise for training, what makes advisors effective, and then you define success and combat effectiveness. But I want to start with Language. Language, as long as you've been in Special Forces, as long as I was in Special Forces, the guys today and the guys before us all have had the, let's call it, vigorous discussion that never ends about the importance of language. How come for you, language kind of sits at the core of the principles that lead to victory for Special Forces? Speaker 1 (5:13) Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's such an important factor because A core component, I think, of Special Operations and particularly Special Forces identity really comes from language. It comes from being able to work by, with, and through host nation forces. And so if you don't speak the language, it really complicates things. And in particular, I found that in the missions that were within the South Com AOR, language was absolutely essential. In other places... It became kind of more of a complicated conclusion. I don't know how detailed you want to go into it, but I'm happy to go as deep as you'd like. Speaker 2 (5:52) When I think about language, Special Forces puts a lot of investment into our Green Berets when they're going through the Special Forces qualification course. So depending on what your language is, it's like three months, four months, six months. I mean, I studied Russian. I went to 10th group. My core language was Russian. Other guys who got Arabic. Spent six months in Arabic. And then I went to 10th group and never spoke Russian one single time because we deployed to the, which will bring up a later point and principle that you have, but we deployed to the Middle East and there wasn't a whole lot of Russian being spoken in, in Iraq. And then I went and spent a lot of time in Africa and we don't speak Swahili or I didn't speak French and I don't speak Arabic. And so. There were times where I felt like I'm at a disadvantage because I'm speaking through an interpreter or I'm reliant on my, the person across from me's ability to speak English. So I don't know if I'm getting the full context of the conversation. Now, that being said, was I proficient in Russian enough to gain the full context? If I was having a one-on-one conversation, I'll probably not. Would I have gotten better if I spoke it every day? Yes. But I think. When we look at language, it is critical because if we don't know what is being interpreted and the context behind it, we miss a lot. Speaker 1 (7:19) Yeah, for sure. So I did Arabic. I was two plus three in modern standard Arabic. I went back to Georgetown. So you're the one. I was. The one guy who Speaker 2 (7:29) scored that. Speaker 1 (7:30) Literally, there were like three of Speaker 2 (7:32) us in fifth group with Speaker 1 (7:33) like that Speaker 2 (7:33) skill level. Speaker 1 (7:35) Yeah. And then I actually I went back to Georgetown to the School of Foreign Service, Master's of Arts, Arab Studies. And we literally had five and a half hours of Arabic a day where we were hazed by the instructor. They would like throw chalk and, you know, erasers at us if we made like grammatical errors. It was an experience. But at the same point, one of the challenges is really kind of what you hit the nail on the head is that. In so many places that we deploy to, either that one country has 60, 70, 100 languages spoken in that one country, or across the AOR, for example, Indo-Pakom, there are thousands of languages spoken. And so trying to pick exactly the right language is really difficult, like almost impossible, I would even argue. And so one of the things that I actually kind of concluded through two and a half years of research was if your aim is to build a partner force that is a tactical battalion or below unit that is designed just to fight in insurgencies, really the focus should be more on making sure you have the right advisors and not stressing as much about making sure you have the right exact language. And so to a degree, it's speaking a language and not the language. Because speaking a language gives you a lot of the key traits that enables you to be an effective advisor, to be an effective by, with, and through Green Beret. Speaker 2 (9:13) And how does that tie into the cultural aspect? Because if you don't know or understand, and you don't have to be a... three, three, but you've got to have some understanding of a language to start understanding their culture. And I think SF does a great job of instilling in special operators, the importance of cultural astuteness, understanding your environment. You know, one of those core principles of SF, right? Understand our operational environment. But as Americans, we're not good historically as understanding that. There is the rest of the world out there who does things differently than we do. And just because they don't do it the same way we do doesn't mean it's worse. It's just different. All right. And it works for them. But we have to be very conscious of how other countries do things. So why is that so critical for a special forces operation? Speaker 1 (10:12) Yeah. I mean, so to me, language and culture are intertwined to a degree because they kind of, they form each other. The cultural experience and kind of understanding other cultures allows you to have strategic empathy, to understand kind of like how your partner is thinking, like what are their objectives? What are their goals? And how can you help align those to kind of meet your goals? So I think that cultural awareness is absolutely critical in that. It also enables you to be a better trainer, a better partner. It gives you patience. It gives you the ability to kind of understand how they see things, which when you have that, it kind of unlocks the key to achieving a really objective. I remember having, Speaker 2 (10:59) as so many of us did in Iraq and Afghanistan and wherever you deploy as a special operator, you have opportunities to really sit down and get to know your partner force. And Speaker 1 (11:09) I was able, being the detachment commander, to sit down with the battalion commander of the ISAF. Speaker 2 (11:15) And every night, it was every night, you know, I was there in the office. We had a standing meeting, 8 o'clock. If Speaker 1 (11:20) we Speaker 2 (11:20) didn't have an operation, 8 o'clock at night, I was in his office. And we were there until sometimes it was 30 minutes. Other times it was four hours. But every night you're there and you learn about them and you learn about their families and you learn about, you know, okay, why do you have this Sunni-Shia divide? Why you operate down here in Basra, but you live up in the north. And so you... How does, what's the drive like? What are you enduring? You know, you have four wives, you know, like one's enough. How do you do four? So there's all these things that you learn that I think make you better at your job