Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.

The Interview

In this intimate interview, Sylvester Stallone discusses his new memoir, 'The Steps,' revealing the deep-seated traumas of an abusive childhood

Key takeaways

• Stallone reveals he suffered from bulimia due to an obsession with achieving a 'jagured' body for action roles.
• He details a traumatic upbringing marked by parental abandonment and physical abuse from his father.

Main topics

• Childhood trauma and parental abuse
• The making of Rocky and sudden fame

Notable quotes

I live on regrets. I can make a single castle out of regrets.

Conclusion

A raw and vulnerable exploration of how early trauma shaped one of Hol

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) I'm John Caramonica, a critic at The New Speaker 2 (0:02) York Times. And I'm Joe Cascarelli, a culture reporter at The Speaker 3 (0:04) Times. Together we host PopCast, a weekly pop culture chat show where we speak to the biggest musicians, actors, internet celebrities, and more. Speaker 2 (0:12) We've had Bad Bunny, Olivia Rodrigo, and Anne Speaker 3 (0:14) Hathaway. We've also hosted live performances with Andre 3000 and Erykah Badu. Plus, we end every conversation with a snack. Catch new episodes of PopCast every week on YouTube. And anywhere you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (0:28) I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets. I'm Speaker 1 (0:37) Lulu Garcia Navarro, and today I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone. At 80 years old, the star of Rocky is telling his own against-all-odds story in a new memoir, The Steps, an allusion to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes. Speaker 1 (0:57) In the book, Stallone details an abusive and tortured childhood and how that fueled his success in some of Hollywood's most well-known franchises. Speaker 4 (1:06) It's over, Johnny. It's over. Nothing is over! Speaker 1 (1:12) What became clear in our conversation is that behind that tough guy exterior he became famous for, there were deep struggles with his emotions, his body, and his family. It's a Sylvester Stallone you've never seen before. Speaker 4 (1:25) I became bulimic. You didn't know that. Okay, who heard it here first? Speaker 1 (1:30) But first... A quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore The Times for free without paywalls during your first month in The New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview. Speaker 1 (1:47) It has been 50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure. Since the movie that started it all, Rocky, came out. You're now 80 years old, which I'm sure is also hard to believe. It is. You know, in reading this memoir, one of the things that struck me is that, you know, some of these memories are quite painful for you. And you wrote in the book that... At difficult moments in your life, you told yourself to, quote, put those memories away in a box and avoid them, just move forward. Speaker 2 (2:17) What Speaker 1 (2:18) was it like to go back and revisit some of these things for this book? Speaker 4 (2:23) You know, it was mixed emotion. There used to be some, like, you know, tears. There'd be some laughter. There'd be some anger and bitterness. And then I thought, you know, maybe in one way that was the motivation. to do something extraordinary as opposed to, you know, just being very languid and, oh, I had a nice relationship growing up, but I have no angst inside of me. That fuel? So I've always been on that cusp, like, you know, the guy punched you in your mouth, but did he do you a favor? Because now you go to the gym and you become a tough guy. You know, those things, I truly believe that... The parents are the mold makers. They're sculptors. They don't realize it, but they're sculptors. They're Rodin's. And they're sculpting their masterpiece or their disaster. Speaker 1 (3:15) Yeah. I want to start actually at the very beginning because. Speaker 1 (3:20) You came into the world, in many ways, how you have inhabited it, which is, well, you know, with a lot of turmoil, a lot of drama. It was a rough entry. Can you tell me about the day you were born? Speaker 4 (3:34) Well, it was, my mother really, she also came from a lot of turmoil, and she really wasn't mother material. And she had grandiose plans for her life. So her pregnancy with me was a big-time interruption. And I don't think she wanted to really believe it was happening, even though it was in the ninth month, and she was finally on a bus, and she goes into labor. And she said, I want to have it here. It was bad. And then we just happened to be near a... A medical center, you might call it, like a charity award. There weren't even doctors there. It was just mainly interns and one doctor. And that's my first breath on earth. Speaker 1 (4:20) Yeah. I mean, here in New York City, it was a bus right here. Speaker 4 (4:24) And Speaker 1 (4:24) the people who delivered you used forceps, and they partially paralyzed your face, right? Could have been Speaker 4 (4:32) worse. Because sometimes you get brain damage from it. Maybe that happened too. I don't know. It was a terrible thing growing up because I slurred and I mumbled and I was like 10 times worse than Rocky. It was rough. Speaker 1 (4:46) Did you see yourself back then as having a disability when you were young? Yeah, it Speaker 4 (4:51) was. You're not aware of it. Even if you have a lisp or a stutter, you're so familiar with it. Speaker 1 (4:59) But Speaker 4 (4:59) other people, what? What? Jesus. Say anything. What language is that? Oh, God. Speaker 1 (5:08) You know, in the book, you seem to suggest that both your parents saw your arrival as having ruined their ambitions in some way. You wrote, can you really make people proud who never wanted you in the first place? And when you were very little, you were sent to go live in a boarding house. I mean, you were very little. Speaker 4 (5:29) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (5:30) your parents only visited you once a month. I've got to say, this is, by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff. Speaker 1 (5:42) And, you know, it's very clear that when you were young, you never got the love, you never got the support that most children need. I mean, how did you understand that as a kid? How did it make you feel? I Speaker 4 (5:55) don't know if there was some preventative thing or something. Speaker 4 (6:01) blockage of being kind of completely abandoned or forlorn or whatever. I just was raised by strangers, you know, in a boarding house, and it became sort of a natural environment. And my parents really were never nurturing, so this was actually a bonus compared to where I was living. Speaker 1 (6:21) I think... If you are emotionally deprived when you're younger, Speaker 4 (6:26) you Speaker 1 (6:27) learn to lock things away, which is why I started with that quote about you locking things away. Do you think it made you, like, tough? Speaker 4 (6:36) In the wrong way, yeah. It made me very tough. And I literally haven't figured out real, real, real, real true love until, you know, like 70. It really was, you know, because you have different... Speaker 4 (6:49) incarnations of love. You think this is it or this or that, but to really have unequivocally true love, and I love my wife and my kids. I mean, that total abandonment, that reckless love that you would jump into a volcano for them, that came late, and that's a big pity. It really is, because I was so consumed with not being another bum from the neighborhood. I was very, very competitive, like a pit bull. Like, it's just, that's what got me going. It's not healthy. And I would have conversation with my wife and my brother or anyone at the time about why I was so competitive. It really was, it was, but then again. Speaker 1 (7:32) Made you who you are. Yeah. And you've had quite a life. Your parents had this very hostile and. violent marriage in many ways. And they divorced when you were about 11 years old. Is that right? Speaker 4 (7:47) Yeah, 10, 10 and a half, 11 years. Speaker 1 (7:49) Yeah. I mean, what do you remember about that separation? And how did they decide to split you and your brother up? It Speaker 4 (7:57) was traumatic. I'm not sure about how my brother reacted, but when she goes... I'm leaving. I won't be living here anymore. And I go, where are you going? Because I'm just, I'm going to live somewhere else. I'm moving out. I remember holding onto her leg and like being literally dragged to the, yeah, it was like, you know what I mean? Like, hey, mom, come back. And this is when you guys were all living together. Yeah, and she pulled the leg away out the door and that was it. And my brother came home a little bit after that and there was nobody there. You know, I guess my father took me to the shop or something, so he was abandoned, and he never got over that, ever. Speaker 1 (8:38) That scene, I'm so sorry, I just want to linger on it, of just you holding... It Speaker 4 (8:42) was rough. I'm telling you, it was one of those things where your legs buckle, you drop down, you grab around like a leg, try to tackle her. What was Speaker 1 (8:52) going on, do you think? I don't Speaker 4 (8:53) know, because she never was a loving person. I know I'm not alone in this, that there's a connection at birth that some people have that's so... Speaker 4 (9:09) palpable, that no matter what, you cannot break away from this ability or need to have this person's attention. It's like electric and then being deprived and put into the dark. It's a terrible syndrome. It really is. It's 100 Speaker 1 (9:25) % true. You can never Speaker 4 (9:26) get rid of the connection to your parents. So is it blood thicker than water? I used to say, no, it's just stickier. But it is thicker. I mean, there's something there that... That is quite painful, really it is. Speaker 1 (9:44) You go to Maryland and you end up living with your dad. He loved horses. He played polo. But what was it like living alone with your dad? Because we've talked a little bit about your mom, but that didn't sound like a great time either. Speaker 4 (10:01) It would be, I Speaker 1 (10:05) guess, these Speaker 4 (10:06) constant. Speaker 4 (10:09) bombastic explosions and then total silence because if he were talking and then he said, you know, I don't know if I agree with that. He starts spinning his fork and suck his teeth. and you knew what was coming. The next thing you know, wham, he had very big hands. You just learn to duck a little bit, but there are some times I'll never forget. God, you know, I don't know. Poor Sly. No, this is what made you. I didn't put a lot of stuff in the book because I didn't want a pity party, but it was insane. For example, it's church. Speaker 4 (10:51) Before we go to church, go to the store, which is a block away, buy some bread. Okay, I go down there. I see a couple of my friends. Oh, I got to get back. And I bring home sandwich spread. Nut bread. Speaker 1 (11:05) And Speaker 4 (11:05) he kicked me in the stomach and laid me out, got in the car and went to church. I'm there in the street, Thai, this kind of thing, with mayonnaise. It really is. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Speaker 1 (11:23) Did you ever fight back? Speaker 4 (11:30) This is going to sound very, I guess, Greek tragedy kind of thing. Speaker 4 (11:37) When I was, say, 43, 44, and he was 25 years older than me, he goes, yeah, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that. Is there anything left in your life that you'd like to do? I said, I wish you and I could be the same age three minutes. And he goes, well, I said, because I'd like to give you some of your own medicine. And you would know what it'd be like to have your ass kicked. He goes, takes off his jacket. He goes, don't wait. Let's bring it on right now. This is on Sunset Boulevard. Pull the car over. You don't have to wait. Come on. He was ready to go at, you know, 68 years old. So when people go, where do you get the ferocity to play Rambo? Kinetic. Speaker 1 (12:37) I mean, your dad was not only abusive, but he was competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean, he often tried to one-up you, sort of humiliate you. You talk about what you've just discussed, you know, him beating you up in front of church. But also, you know, you became a very good polo player and at a polo match in front of everyone, he dragged you off the horse and beat you up in front of everyone. Why do you think he was that way with you? I don't. Speaker 4 (13:07) No. You Speaker 1 (13:08) never asked him? I don't know. Speaker 4 (13:09) You know, you keep, well, his father was like, his father was a very stoic barber with a mustache and, you know, they say like a... fly sitting on a ton of cow shit thinks himself a king. So he was like, yeah, so I'm the king of the street. And so he had this sort of imperiousness. And I think he was cold as hell. So my father was very, very cold and tough. For example, there was a cat. Speaker 4 (13:45) just making noise outside the house. He went inside and went out, got the cat, took it into the laundry room, shot it, and left it in the wash tub. Now, I think he did that to impress me, like, holy, you'll never be as tough as your old man, and I won't. There is no chance. That's a whole other league. Speaker 1 (14:09) It's funny, though. You keep on using the word tough. Speaker 4 (14:12) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:13) And I don't hear tough. I hear messed up. Speaker 4 (14:16) You know, you're right. Because I'm using tough as a masculine banner for something much more perverse and weird. And dark. Dark. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. With Speaker 1 (14:25) all that drama and all that violence, was there any love between you two? Did you feel any love? Speaker 4 (14:31) Only on his deathbed. That's about it. I never, you know, it's so weird. My mother never, and my brother will attest, hugged me ever, ever. There was never like, oh, hold you to the breast kind of a thing. Kissing, forget it. Like, nothing. It was always an air thing. And my father wasn't. And while he wasn't any better at all, but I'll never forget, we were, I was maybe nine years old, and he would always have me, like, take care of his horses, feed his horses, but never ride his horses. And so we were coming back from the barn. He's driving, and I kind of fell asleep. So he put my head on his knee and his hand on my head. I never got over that. That was... That was the epitome. Like, I went, wow. That's what it feels like. Speaker 1 (15:30) Oh. Speaker 4 (15:30) You know what I mean? I do. It's Speaker 1 (15:32) just like, Speaker 4 (15:32) wow. Like, you know, just a simple stroking of your child's hair. But that was it. It was one and done. Speaker 1 (15:39) So much so that you remember it. Speaker 4 (15:41) One and done. Speaker 1 (15:44) You know, you went to many different schools during this period. I did. Speaker 1 (15:52) One of the ones that you talk about is for kids that needed discipline. You got sent to sort of reform school, it sounds like. Speaker 4 (16:01) Devereaux. Speaker 1 (16:02) Yeah. And you talk about being put in a psych ward. Speaker 1 (16:13) And I have to tell you that this was one of the most chilling things that I have read. Can you tell me that story and why you included it? Speaker 4 (16:25) You know, as an adult, I saw one film with a cuckoo's nest. Speaker 1 (16:30) And Speaker 4 (16:30) it looks like a bunch of like. Speaker 1 (16:32) Kind of Speaker 4 (16:33) eccentric old guys. You know what I mean? Speaker 1 (16:36) Mm-hmm. Speaker 4 (16:37) No. At this school, there were five different departments for different ages. And in my age, it would be like the teenagers. If you ever snuck out to see a girl or do something like that, you'd be reprimanded by taking to a place called Park Lodge or the Snake Pit, which... On the outside, it looked like a Tudor-type bag, old Tudor home from the 20s. And then you walked inside, and you now entered the heart of insanity. The smell, the filth, people running around naked and clawing, hands tied, drooling. And this is what they thought would impress you never to break the rules again. And then... They marched me, and I mean, they're corn. And this is called the lifers, where these people, there's no going home ever. Everyone had straps. They'd be tied down at night. The windows were covered with bars or grills. And they took me to a cell. And it was a padded cell. And I'll never forget, it was that high. So you could never get off your knees. And inside, I'd look up right here, and you'd have these elements like dust constantly falling down. And you see the real, it's been clawed at, clawed at by the predecessors of this particular dungeon. And clawed at. Speaker 1 (18:16) And they left you here how long? Speaker 4 (18:19) I was there for a couple weeks. It was wild. But this, to me, was one of the better things that happened, too. I said, I know they're going to try to break me. I was attacked there. They always tried to rip my groin off. It was bad. Speaker 1 (18:36) What do you mean tried to break your groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah, Speaker 4 (18:40) there was a guy named Jay Bird. He was a, actually he was the son of an actor named Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there. He was big, had no hair, always naked, just a rotten teeth. Because, you know, I never brushed teeth. And he made sounds. And they call him Jay Bird because he's always naked as a Jay Bird. Speaker 2 (19:00) And Speaker 4 (19:01) I go into the bathroom on the