Kai Bird, Author: Roy Cohn, the man who shaped Trump?

The Interview

Author Kai Bird joins Paddy O'Connell to discuss the profound influence of lawyer Roy Cohn on Donald Trump's political identity. The episode

Key takeaways

• Roy Cohn's 'rules' of engagement, including attacking criticism and refusing to apologize, directly shaped Donald Trump's political playbook.
• Cohn rose to prominence as chief counsel for Senator Joe McCarthy during the anti-communist era of the 1950s.

Main topics

• Roy Cohn's mentorship of Donald Trump
• The legacy of McCarthyism

Notable quotes

He told Donald Trump, you know, when criticised, attack, attack, attack, deny, deny, deny, always go on the offensive, never apologise.

Conclusion

The episode provides a historical lens to understand modern American p

Transcript preview

Speaker 7 (0:00) This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Speaker 6 (0:06) So, quick summer recap? Speaker 4 (0:08) Heat waves, data leaks, AI hacks, folding phones, and a viral, spinally challenged raccoon. Yeah, Speaker 6 (0:13) I think that covers it, right? I'm Thomas Germain. I'm Speaker 4 (0:17) Jess Maddox, and The Interface is back from its summer break. Speaker 6 (0:19) New season, new co-host, same deep dives into the tech that's shaping our world and our lives. So Speaker 4 (0:26) before AI wipes out all of humanity, Speaker 6 (0:28) allegedly, join Speaker 4 (0:30) us for The Interface. Listen Speaker 6 (0:31) on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (0:37) Hi, I'm Marie Kooi from Asia Specific, where we bring you Asia-Pacific stories, unpacked by those who know them best. Indonesia is considering allowing dual citizenship for the first time to try to stop the country's best and brightest permanently leaving the country. But only a limited pool of people would be eligible. Most countries in Asia don't allow citizens to hold another passport, so is Indonesia's move smart? Join us twice a week. Search for Asia Specific wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Speaker 7 (1:08) Hello, I'm Paddy O'Connell and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Speaker 7 (1:22) I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. Speaker 5 (1:25) A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this as fire. We need healing. We need trust. These Speaker 1 (1:32) companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. Speaker 7 (1:35) This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. Speaker 7 (1:44) For this episode, I speak to author Kai Bird about Roy Cohn, the lawyer who helped drive McCarthyism and later became a mentor to Donald Trump. Kai argues that understanding Cohn is key to understanding Trump's political playbook. Cohn rose to prominence in the early 1950s as Senator Joe McCarthy's chief counsel, helping lead the campaign against those said to be communists in the United States system. In the 1970s and 80s, he became Trump's lawyer and mentor, helping shape the young property developer's approach to power. Kai describes how Trump began to copy Cohn, from the way he spoke to the personalised number plates on his car. He writes that Cohn taught Donald Trump how to respond to criticism by attacking, denying and never apologising. Lessons, he says, provided a blueprint for Trump's future political life. Speaker 3 (2:42) He had no guardrails. He had no rules. He told Donald Trump, you know, when criticised, attack, attack, attack. Deny, deny, deny. Always go on the offensive. Never apologise. Speaker 3 (2:59) And the early Trump, when he met Roy Cohn, he began mimicking Roy. And we read about Donald Trump every day in the newspapers. We hear him talking on the radio and TV. But no one really understands where he came from. And I would argue you can only do so by looking at the life of Roy Cohn. Speaker 7 (3:26) Welcome to The Interview from the BBC World Service with Kai Bird. Speaker 3 (3:32) Oh, it's absolutely a New York story. You know, Donald Trump is from New York. To understand Donald Trump, you really have to understand Roy Cohn. He's the key to understanding the last 10 years of the Trump era. Donald Trump is Roy Cohn, I would argue. Speaker 7 (3:50) I Speaker 3 (3:51) mean, I suppose Speaker 7 (3:51) what we've got to get to for people who don't live in New York and don't really know it very well is the bare fist. tribalism of this city. Yes, it's got some quaint old ladies. Yes, it's got some fabulous fashionistas. But it's a place where if I want your job, Kai, I come for it. I go through your front door and I smash you in the face. Speaker 3 (4:16) New Yorkers can be ruthless and driven. And that's particularly true of the young real estate developer who at the age of 27 met Roy Cohn, at a New York private dinner club in October of 1973. And they bonded because Roy was someone that Donald Trump knew had already been indicted three times in the 1960s for bribery and fraud. and he'd gotten off in jury trials all three times. So Trump admired this. He wanted a ruthless lawyer, a fearsome lawyer, and that was Roy Cohn, who taught him how to deal with the press, how to deal with the courts, taught him that the rules were for the small man, and he could break them. He broke all the rules. You know, he was under audit for two decades. This sounds very much like our current president. He was the kind of guy who would never pay his bills, his dry cleaning bills, his liquor bills all over Manhattan. Speaker 7 (5:25) And Speaker 3 (5:25) he got away with it. Speaker 7 (5:27) Just in terms of people who get off with things, they're found innocent, aren't they? So let's just talk a bit about how Roy Cohn made his name. Is it correct that he had been involved? in the trials of spies, Americans, people accused of spying against America? Had he made his name as a lawyer in some of the biggest Cold War cases? Speaker 3 (5:49) Yes, exactly. No, he graduated from Columbia Law School in the late 40s and at the age of 21