Estelle Brachlianoff, Veolia CEO: We need to re-think waste

The Interview

BBC Climate Editor Justin Rowlatt interviews Veolia CEO Estelle Bracharlioff about the evolving landscape of environmental services. The dis

Key takeaways

• Veolia has evolved from a 19th-century French water company into a global leader with a $45 billion turnover.
• Brachlianoff argues that environmental security is a core component of national security, citing targeted desalination infrastructure in the Middle East.

Main topics

• Environmental Security
• Waste Mining and Circular Economy

Notable quotes

Instead of mining the planet, what about mining our waste?

Conclusion

The episode highlights how viewing waste as a resource rather than a l

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Speaker 6 (0:05) For many of us, going further isn't a choice. It's a feeling we can't ignore. Because ambition has a way of outgrowing where it began. Turning dreams into direction. Every journey brings us closer to the life we imagine. So, where will your journey take you? Etihad. Beyond Borders. Speaker 5 (0:36) What do Beyonce, Steven Spielberg and Cristiano Ronaldo, as Speaker 2 (0:40) well as Paul McCartney, Mr Beast and Roger Federer all have in common? Speaker 5 (0:44) They've all joined one of the world's most exclusive clubs, becoming billionaires. But how did they manage Speaker 2 (0:50) to build such vast fortunes? Speaker 5 (0:52) Find out in Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Speaker 2 (0:55) The podcast that explores how some of the wealthiest people on the planet made their money. And Speaker 5 (0:59) asks whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. That's Speaker 2 (1:02) Good Bad Billionaire. Listen Speaker 5 (1:04) now wherever you get your BBC podcast. Hello, Speaker 4 (1:12) I'm Justin Roller, the BBC's climate editor, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service. The best conversations coming out of the BBC. People shaping our world from all over the world. Speaker 2 (1:27) I want to get freedom. I like that freedom. Speaker 5 (1:30) A gender equal world would be a better world for men too. We need this as fire. We need healing. We need trust. Speaker 2 (1:37) These companies don't really, they don't care what governments do. Speaker 4 (1:40) This is a war. The first thing that we want is the war to end. Speaker 4 (1:46) For this interview, I met Estelle Bracklinoff, chief executive of environmental firm Veolia at the BBC's London headquarters. The corporation's origins can be traced all the way back to 19th century France, when it was established as a water company during the country's industrial revolution. More than a century and a half later, it has grown to become one of the world's leading operators of environmental services, working across five continents, providing water supplies, waste management and energy services. In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, Bracklianoff reveals how a multi-billion dollar corporation operates, as well as how Veolia adapts to the various challenges posed by climate change and the opportunities offered by technological advances. Speaker 1 (2:36) Why is it important that we increase the recycling rate? It's not just for the CO2 emission, although it's important. as well because it's a source of materials as opposed to imported from elsewhere. So in a way, instead of mining the planet, what about mining our waste? Instead of importing paper and oil and plastic, because plastic, of course, is traditionally made out of oil, and lithium to make batteries, what about mine our waste? Speaker 4 (3:10) Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service with Estelle Bracklinoff. Originally, it was a French water company, wasn't it? And how did it evolve into this kind of environmental security company? Speaker 1 (3:23) You're right. Originally means more than 170 years ago. You're right. We were born in France in water, but it developed into now, you know, a company which is 80 % outside France and actually 40 % outside Europe even. We are number one in the US. We are number one in Australia. This Speaker 4 (3:40) is Speaker 1 (3:40) for water? Speaker 4 (3:41) The Speaker 1 (3:41) US is for hazardous waste and for water. And in Australia, it's about waste as well. So we are really present in many, many different countries. And how did it evolve from this originally French company into a worldwide one? Actually, the customer's need has evolved from providing essential service, such as water at your tap, developed into developing technologies and innovation to treat various pollutants. And then, you know, recycling as in a social service as well. And we've acquired as well a few companies over the years. And that's how we became this, you know, 45 billion turnover, 220,000 employees worldwide now. Speaker 4 (4:22) You've talked about kind of environmental security as a kind of organizing principle to how you see the company developing. You've also talked about... Viola is a defence company. Now, you supply water, you deal with waste. How is that national defence? Speaker 1 (4:38) Actually, I think environmental security is part of, you know, national security. And probably we haven't realised it yet, but some other countries have. When I say some other countries have, if you were to come with me in the Middle East now. Probably you wouldn't understand very much what I mean by that. Desalination units in the Middle East are targeted, as we speak, because they are a critical infrastructure to provide water, not only to cities, but to industries, to refineries, and to pretty much everything, and of course agriculture. So they are considered an essential service, a critical need. When you Speaker 4 (5:14) say targeted, you mean literally targeted by Iran in the conflict around the Straits of Hormuz? Speaker 1 (5:19) Actually, desalination units are in the list of the top. targets. And actually, some of them have been bombarded as we speak. So we have therefore Veolia for cities in the Middle East surrounded by Patriot missiles. So literally, we're talking about, you know, security as in national security. Of course, you know, this is an extreme example that you can see in the Middle East. But when you look at the summer that we've had through Europe, and including in this country in the UK, you can think of, you know, when water becomes scarce, when you have droughts, and you have to think of water as something as critical as many other national securities items. Water irrigates pretty much everything. Without water, you cannot have food, you cannot produce anything. Of course, you know, you cannot, you know, drink. So it's critical resource. And this is one of the first consequence of global warming and climate change is on water. So it's one of the first victim of climate change is water. And Speaker 4 (6:24) you've talked about water bankruptcy. It's Speaker 1 (6:26) a Speaker 4 (6:26) phrase the UN also uses, the idea that we're kind of effectively using up, running out of water faster than nature. can provide it? How can, you know, this is, you know, you're a commercial company, how can you step in and kind of address this, these kind of really big national and environmental issues? Speaker 1 (6:43) So Veolia is the largest water company in the world. We operate on the five continents, including in very water scarce areas such as Jordan, Chile, Australia, just to name a few. And we've, over the years, developed technologies and know-how to be able to ensure you have safe water, resilient water at the tap every single day. Water is a key critical infrastructure that we have to think of as we should protect it. That's why I call it security as much as any other critical infrastructure. Speaker 4 (7:17) Let's move on to another business area that I know is... It's something you think is a potential opportunity for Veolia. Data centres, and you're talking about supplying water, naturally grows out of your core business, but also energy to data centres. Now, data centres, as you know, are very controversial. I'm the climate editor of the BBC. I get asked about data centres practically every day. What do you think you can bring to these issues about the incredible appetite for both energy and water that data centres have? Speaker 1 (7:48) So data center and micro E and everything to do with AI, I call it the AI industries because it's really a supply chain. It's two sides of a coin. One is exactly what you said. They're consuming enormous amount of water and energy. And we have