Doing Whatever You Want, Is Keeping Your Business Small (Here's Why) | Mark C Winters

The Home Service Expert Podcast

In this episode of The Home Service Expert Podcast, Tommy sits down with Mark C. Winters, co-author of Rocket Fuel and author of the new book Visionary, to explore the critical role of the 'integrator' in entrepreneurial success. They discuss why most founders struggle to

Key takeaways

• The visionary-integrator dynamic is essential for scaling; most successful companies have both roles in place.
• Visionaries are naturally wired for big ideas and external relationships but struggle with detail-oriented execution.

Main topics

• The visionary-integrator role in entrepreneurship
• Why most businesses stay small

Notable quotes

"It's not that you can't do it. It's just that if you spend all your time and energy doing stuff like that, you don't get to spend it flying over the wetlands and seeing the vision of what a Walt Disney World could be."

Conclusion

Mark C. Winters emphasizes that true entrepreneurial success comes not from doing everything yourself but from building systems,

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Unfortunately, sometimes our characteristics and our personality are tied to business. And you wake up one day and you say, okay, I mean, for a guy like me, okay, you get to go golfing every day and fishing. That's good for about two weeks. But I talked to a guy that said, I'd rather give back the $3 billion to have my business back. I was in Colorado with my wife and we were hiking. And we were having the conversation of would you rather be rich or would you rather be king? On that day, for whatever reason, when she asked me the question, Speaker 1 (0:28) My answer was, it depends. It depends on which one of those is going to give me more of the freedom that I want. Today, I got Mark Winters with me. When I read his book, it changed my life. Rocket Fuel and most recently, The Visionary. That's what we're going to be talking about. He's the co-founder of Rocket Fuel Ventures. He's a seasoned entrepreneur, advisor, best-selling author of the books Rocket Fuel and Visionary, with over 25 years of experience working at global enterprises like Procter & Gamble and BP. Mark specializes in identifying patterns that drive business success. Mark, it's a pleasure to have you on today, brother. Nice to see you, Tommy. So this will be our second podcast. Let's just talk a little bit about your origin story, where you're at today, what you're really looking forward to in the future. Speaker 1 (1:16) Yeah, so my origin story starts in big corporate, right? So back with Procter & Gamble and kind of doing the traditional corporate thing, I thought that was the company I was going to be with for the rest of my life. And then you end up catching the entrepreneurial bug while I was away in business school. And that sort of changed everything. You know, I thought, man, this sounds a lot more interesting than what I'm doing every day. And so I made the leap. Burn my boats, if you will. And that led to a series of ventures. I'm up to 15 different companies now that I've either started myself, bought from somebody else, shut down, put out of business or sold off for some kind of a win in all different kinds of industries. And along the way, just sort of fell in love with what it means to be an entrepreneur and the science that makes it work. Speaker 1 (2:05) and the challenges that show up for all of us along the way and started moving into more of an advisory mode. Gosh, that's been almost 15 years ago now when I sort of made that shift and did a lot of peer group work with a CEO peer group, started a bunch of here in Dallas. I'm in Dallas for work. And that's how I met a fellow named Gino Wickman, who wrote the book Traction and created the entrepreneurial operating system. And Gino and I became. fast friends had some some history in common knew some of the same people and that led to he and i writing the book rocket fuel together where we really unpacked the visionary integrator structure and and a set of five rules and five tools really to make that thing work and make it powerful and then uh most recently now i've really turned my my focus to the visionary in particular and and diving deep on on what it looks like what it takes for Speaker 1 (2:58) visionary to be truly great if they really want to excel in that role. So that's where we are. That's where we are now. I had, this is so funny. This was like this past week. So today's Tuesday. So it was probably last Wednesday or Thursday. I had a fellow reach out and I get probably 20 or 30 messages a day. And this guy had said, do you still believe in the visionary? And I'm like 110%. Like, that is my life. Like, I am like the epitome of what you wrote in the book. Like, I'm Walt. Roy keeps track of everything else. He knows what's going on with the construction of Walt Disney. He understands what's happening in the background, making sure all the contractors are paid. But Walt, he saw Disney World way before it was even. He was flying over Orlando looking down at a bunch of, you know, wetlands. Speaker 1 (3:53) And he saw it. And it's really hard to explain until you live it, because it almost feels like like I was telling you earlier, like it almost feels like sometimes I should be running the project and I should be in in the weeds. But then I realized every time I do that, it doesn't help the business. Yeah, and it's not that you can't do it, right? So you've had to learn how to do all that stuff as you've kind of come along a lot of times just out of a sheer place of how to survive, right? So it's not that you can't do it. It's just that if you spend all your time and energy doing stuff like that, you don't get to spend it, you know, flying over the wetlands and seeing the vision of what, you know, a Walt Disney World could be, right? And so that's what it's all about is finding out where that sweet spot is for you. Speaker 1 (4:38) And then building a structure that lets you focus there and do the things that, frankly, only you can do. We're going to dive into a lot of this stuff on the visionary side. You said that most entrepreneurial struggles are predictable and can be easily mitigated with the right skills. Can you dive into that? Yeah, so visionary patterns are very predictable. I mean, you're living and it resonates strongly with you because you are one. But even if someone is not one, they have all seen one, worked with one, worked for one, been a partner with one, you name it. And so the same patterns pop up over and over again where it's this, it's not necessarily an inability, but it's a... Speaker 1 (5:23) a resistance to focus on the details and to focus on the follow through and to be able to kind of stay locked in on something for an extended period of time. That's just not how visionaries are wired, right? Visionaries are wired to be thinking about the future. I call it seeing the future, looking out down the road and going, all right, this is where things are headed. We can kind of see that. So if that's where things are headed, what's the best place for us to position this thing along that track to take full advantage of the opportunities that are going to come with it? And then along with that comes all the ideation, all the possibilities, the different things that we could try to do or we could tap into that are going to make this thing go, make this thing pop. So it's that stuff. It's solving the big, interesting problems. Speaker 1 (6:14) big relationships, usually big external relationships, whether that's in the community, you know, the industry trade group, you know, some key vendor, some key customer, you know, but the big external relationships, visionaries are great at that. They're energized for that. And then they're also sometimes sort of, I call it the big gun that you bring in at the end to maybe close the big deal. That's the stuff that they're naturally wired for. And that's easy for them. That's fun for them. They're going to stay focused and locked in on that. But all this other stuff, it's just the day-to-day minutia, the detailed things that have to happen if we're going to make this thing a machine. They're just not wired for that. So the same patterns show up. You know, people don't get developed. Speaker 1 (6:58) We hop from one thing to another. The organization feels this thing we call whiplash where the visionary looks over here. Everybody starts looking that direction. And about the time all eyes are looking that direction, the visionary is looking back over here. And then half of them are turned this way. Half of them are turned that way. And then the visionary turns their head back again. And we just kind of get this back and forth thing that goes on that it causes a lot of unnecessary friction and really leakage of energy. throughout the rest of the organization. And you're talking, this isn't just, a lot of the listeners might be mom and pops, 20, 30, 40 people under 10 million. There's also bigger companies. You know, this year we're pacing to do north of 400 million. But you're talking these big companies, same deal, like the massive, massive companies. Speaker 1 (7:48) Yeah. So the way that we see it, Tommy, is all of those big companies started as small companies. Yep. And so when we go deep in the history and we talk about Walt Disney, we talk about McDonald's, we talk about Standard Oil or Honda, right? We look at the history and the roots of the patterns that happened there, and they had this visionary integrator combo. They had this visionary that was kind of the wild and crazy idea person. And then they had the integrator that was the execution and follow through and get it done focused person. So visionary makes it up. The integrator makes it real. And so we see that as they climb the entrepreneurial arc. And so if you look around in some big companies today, you know, you look at like like like Elon Musk and Gwynne Shotwell, for example. Right. So so that looks like a visionary integrator combination. Speaker 1 (8:41) And so you can see it in big companies if they're truly entrepreneurial. If they truly have that kind of leader combination at the helm, the pattern even exists there. You know, that's a really funny word, entrepreneurial. And so many people, when we went through our first deal, they said, you're very entrepreneurial. You're a founder. And I said, is that a bad thing? And they said, it just really depends. Speaker 1 (9:09) Because we don't know if we could tame the beast. Can you work well with private equity? Do you like to call the shots or do you like to listen in and make cumulative decisions? And now I'm three and a half years through and they're like, wow, you do work well. Because I like to bounce ideas off and really sit in a forum. And if I feel strongly, I'll throw out my card and I'll say, no, no, no, this is what we need to do. I know this business. But sometimes I think people are like, they almost look down upon entrepreneurial businesses. But I think private equity. And some larger companies now are starting to realize that you need that. You need that entrepreneurial spirit to run freely within the business. Or some of the magic dies. Speaker 1 (9:48) Yeah. So I see it. Some people see it that way. I think it depends on who you're working with. Right. So some people don't. Some people see it as a risk. And that's kind of I think what you certainly heard in the past is the founder is a risk factor to be mitigated. Yeah. Right. Because they think, one, you know, you're crazy. They're not sure how to manage you. They're not sure how to deal with you. Two, there's there's a pretty good history of founders that have done some kind of a. Speaker 1 (10:16) a deal for an acquisition or something that had you know had a contract to stay and you know you talk to most of these folks and it's like well how long did you make it and you know on a three-year deal i think the average is probably less than a year right because one of the sides gets sideways with the other so in in one sense the visionary integrator structure is a great way to mitigate that risk because you know neither party wants to be trapped Speaker 1 (10:45) the, the, the, the investor, the buyer, the acquirer, whatever you want to call it, they don't want to be stuck with somebody that they're not sure how to deal with. If it, if it doesn't end up being a healthy relationship and to the, the, the founder of the entrepreneur, they don't want to be stuck in a deal that sucks, right? That's no fun where they, they can't do the stuff that they have been doing the whole time. And now they're in, you know, a job where, you know, They're not calling the shots. They're not able to kind of run the show. And so I've had private equity people in the room that say, you know, the integrator, when it's strong, it solves that problem for us because it's sort of, you know, it's the connection. It's the solid, predictable piece of the puzzle. Speaker 1 (11:31) that gives us some certainty to where we don't have to be concerned about the risk of the founder if they're bringing them into a bigger organization. But now you're starting to see some people, it's kind of like what you described, where they want that energy. They want that future, that visionary, creative energy in the mix because of what they're trying to do in a certain space. You know, if that's something that they're trying to grow and expand in a different way, if you take that voice out of the mix, Speaker 1 (11:57) you've lost something. Like you said, you've lost the magic. I think that's absolutely true. So it really depends on which way they're coming from. And are they trying to minimize risk or they're going to plug it into something that's sort of stable? Or are they really trying to do something unique and let's get a bunch of, you know, crazy people in a room and come up with something that no one has ever thought about before. Speaker 1 (12:17) I think you need a little bit of both. You need to minimize your downside, but you also need to think like if you talk to most founders slash entrepreneurs and you say, we're looking for a two and a half X over the next five years, that's pretty boring. That's like that. We just keep doing what we're doing. No innovation, no testing, no thinking outside of the box. But at the same time, let's not stop what we're doing. Great. Let's allow us to test, put some guardrails around it. But we built it this far. Speaker 1 (12:44) Because when the founder leaves a lot of these businesses, especially private equity backed, you watch them kind of deteriorate. A lot of the other people leave. They're the glue. And the integrator is super important. I think the integrator, usually the COO, probably the CFO, depending on how the business is run and what type of business you're in. If you're in a SaaS product or potentially something to do more with processing fees and other things like fintech, might be the CFO. But I think there's a... Speaker 1 (13:14) The COO is really the guy doing a lot of the work to make the operational side happen. Is that usually who the number two? I guess it depends on the business. Who do you normally see as the integrator? Yeah, so I see it come through all of those paths. It depends a little bit on the industry and kind of what the selection set looks like at the leadership team level. But, you know, the finance path is an obvious one because they've got, you know. detail orientation. The ops path is another one because they're great at execution. And so they sort of bring all that. It's less often that we see somebody that comes up through kind of the sales and marketing function, but I've seen it, right? It happens. So I think it totally is dependent on the space and the particular business. Speaker 1 (14:01) and the team that's already in place. You know, one of the interesting things about the integrator role, a question I'll get a lot, Tommy, is, well, do they need to have deep experience in my space, in my vertical? What do you think? Do you know the answer to that question? I would say no. Why would you say no? because they're good at tasks, they're good at seeing things through. I would say that a great integrator could go almost anywhere because they know how to manage a team and get to the finish line, but that's my point of view. Speaker 1 (14:35) Yeah, I think that's right. That's what I see in my experience is it's a, you know, in some sense, it's just another function like a financial function would be where we're kind of managing widgets in some form or fashion. But the caveat is you got to have deep vertical experience somewhere on that leadership team, right? So whether the visionary has it or the sales and marketing person, whoever. It's got to be there somewhere. But if you've got it right, if the rest of the leadership team is super strong and they've been in this business for a long, long time, then they've got that. The integrator doesn't need that. And you can find somebody who is a rock star at the function of integrating and bring them in and plug them right in. You're going to do fine. Speaker 1 (15:15) Hey guys, I got some big news. Donald Trump Jr. is coming back to freedom in 2026. He spent his career inside one of the biggest family businesses in this country. And just like Eric Trump, he's sitting down with me for a fireside chat so we can really get into where he sees things heading for owners like us. Right now, we're taking questions for Freedom 2026 ticket holders for a chance to have them read to Eric and Don Jr. live on stage during the event. It's the opportunity of a lifetime to hear practical answers of how operators like us need to be approaching our businesses in 2027. One more thing before I let you go. Since it's Labor Day week, we just launched group packages for Freedom 2026 so you could bring your GM, your lead tech, your whole crew, and save a buck while doing it. This one's live today, September 3rd. Speaker 1 (16:01) through Wednesday the 9th only. Freedom 2026 is October 26th through the 28th at Mandalay Bay. I'm telling you guys, I put so much time and effort into my presentation, I'm going to blow your socks off. Go to freedomevent.com, grab your seat today, check out the group packages, and get your question in. Or you can call us or text us at 602-581-7563. Can't wait to see you guys there. How do you feel about, who is it? Speaker 1 (16:32) Sir, what's his name? Virgin. Richard Branson. Richard Branson. He says, I go out and I find the CEO of companies and make them the CEO of my new companies. And that's how he starts businesses. Basically going out and getting an integrator and saying, now you're the entrepreneur. Is that valid or is that something? What is your take on that? Well, so I haven't. taking a deep dive into his stuff lately to kind of see what he's going on and how he's approaching that. But conceptually, if I think about what I see other visionaries doing that are involved in a lot of different businesses, sort of the new model that's starting to show up more and more is you've got a visionary that has a lot of disconnected businesses. So they're not necessarily intertwined or necessarily even synergistic. Speaker 1 (17:30) And they have