#500: Lin-Manuel Miranda Returns! // Part Two

The Hamilcast: A Hamilton Podcast

In this milestone 500th episode of The Hamilcast, host Jillian is joined by Lin-Manuel Miranda for a reflective farewell to this chapter of

Key takeaways

• Lin-Manuel Miranda discusses his book, 'The Education of an Artist' by Daniel Pollack Pelsner, and how oral histories helped him process his career.
• Miranda recounts a childhood memory of having his high school camcorder stolen while filming with Meredith.

Main topics

• Reflecting on the Hamilton legacy
• The songwriting process and inspiration

Notable quotes

Empathy is your superpower.

Conclusion

A poignant and celebratory conclusion to a decade-long journey, emphas

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Hi, I'm Stage and Stage's Lin-Manuel Miranda, and you're listening to The Hamilcast. Boots and cuts and boots and cuts. Hello, Speaker 2 (0:18) friends. Welcome to the 500th episode of The Hamilcast. I'm Jillian, and Lin-Manuel Miranda is here to really and sincerely teach me how to say goodbye to this fantastic chapter. And I'm sure right now it sounds like I'm just using like a cheap throwaway reference, but I'm really not, because that's actually what he ends up doing. So just a few quick notes before we dive in. Hi. Welcome to all of the new people who have just discovered the podcast. So the bad news is that this is the last episode, at least for the foreseeable future. But the really great news is that you have 499 episodes to check out. Seven of those include Lynn's earlier appearances from 2017 and 2020, and all of those are linked in the show notes. Lynn's first episodes from 2017 are where that stage and stages intro comes from that I used in every episode since, as well as the Patreon peeps intro that you'll hear about halfway through Speaker 1 (1:04) this episode. That Speaker 2 (1:05) was just me and Mike and Lynn messing around. It's there organically on the episodes in 2017, but I thought it was really fun and cute and the Patreon peeps are legendary. And so I just wanted to give them a little special something moving forward. So that's what I played right before I started. asking the questions that the Patreon peeps had submitted. But I'm sure those two things sound very strange out of context if this is your first time listening to the pod. So I just wanted to bring you in on some of the lore, as they say. Oh, and the intro and outro music is done by none other than Alex Lacamoire long before the official instrumentals came out. I was using, let's just call them unofficial instrumentals that I found online. And when Alex and I were working on his original episodes together, he was like, oh, here, I just made these for you. Here's the intro. Here's the opening number. Here's Yorktown on a piano. It sounds like an orchestra. And he thought that I was using them just on his episodes. But no, I decided to use them forever because why wouldn't you? Isn't that crazy? Amazing, right? And I promise we're going to get to the episode in a second. But as I'm sitting here saying all this to you, talking into this microphone, it's really hitting me that there have been countless and I mean countless incredible experiences over these last 10 years. It's been a decade of stories and friendships and memories and sketch. How did we get here? Moments. That's for my that thing you do people. And in all of the emotion and feeling proud of the journey and being in my feelings about it, I just got to tell you, I'm beaming because it was. fun. You know, like most of all, it was fun. I've had the time of my life making this podcast for you. And each and every one of you have really made me feel like the richest girl in town. There's another reference for you. But especially as we've been celebrating the end of the show and this journey that we've all been on together, because that's what it feels like to me that we've all been doing this together. It's just been the best. This podcast has absolutely changed my life. And like I've said to Lynn and all the guys in the cabinet, you know, Hamilton could have said, could you not? And they really embraced me. Everyone at Hamilton really did. So anyway, I've just got inspired to tell you that. All right. So I will hop on again real quick at the end and I promise I will keep it quick. But for now, let's jump back in. We're talking about a book called Lin-Manuel Miranda, The Education of an Artist by Daniel Pollack Pelsner. It's excellent. I highly recommend it. And I'm going to link the book and my episodes with Daniel in the show notes as well. So without further ado, please enjoy the remainder of my most recent recording with Lin-Manuel Miranda. And I'll see you on the other side of the pod. Speaker 2 (3:31) And I loved that book, I think. Speaker 1 (3:33) Daniel's book. Yeah, Daniel's book. Was it Speaker 2 (3:34) crazy for you to just have a book written about you like that? I Speaker 1 (3:38) think Speaker 2 (3:38) he Speaker 1 (3:38) mentioned this in his conversation with you, but what made me really feel at ease, in addition to just like everyone I ever met saying like, hey, is this guy cool? Speaker 2 (3:49) Right, yeah. The Speaker 1 (3:50) first thing he did before he sent me any chapters to look at was oral histories. You know, I'm a big sucker for an oral history of a thing I love article, like the oral history of the 40-year-old virgin. You should read the Freaks and Geeks one. Yeah, the Freaks and Geeks. I've read it. Speaker 2 (4:05) Because it talks so much about the music, which is like the big... And Speaker 1 (4:08) so, but now I'm getting these emails and it's the oral history of Clayton's Friends, a movie I made in 10th grade on VHS with my friends. And it's my friends talking about the making of this movie that lives... on VHS in Paul's basement. Right, right, Speaker 2 (4:22) right. Speaker 1 (4:22) You know? And so that was thrilling and moving and to see people reminiscing about, again, like, I don't, I'm just as proud of Vasquez Case as I am of Hamilton. Sure. I'm just as proud of Demon Barber Sweeney Todd that I wrote for the, you know, Easter bonnet ceremony as I am, like, this song. Like, if it's something I made and I can stand by it, like, They're all equal in my eyes. Speaker 4 (4:50) And Speaker 1 (4:50) so to see people, you know, to see my classmates talking about like rehearsing. In the Heights production in college and was like very, and like as seriously as if we were reading the history of some great piece of art was like very moving to me. Why Speaker 2 (5:06) is it different? Like why, how is it not some great piece of art? Speaker 1 (5:08) Well, cause it's not. If I have my way, you'll never see the college version of In the Heights, but like to, to see the way people talked about it and the way people talked about that. Process in us figuring out who we were and what kind of artists we wanted to be was really moving. Like, that was Daniel's thing was like, how did you become you? And I see a lot of trial and error along the way. Speaker 2 (5:31) I think what's really cool about the things that you do, and I think why people are so drawn, not just to the things that you do, but to you, is that you give a shit. You know, like you give a shit about what you're doing. You give a shit about why you're doing it, the people involved. And I think that's why everyone he called was like, yeah. And they wanted to make sure that they were doing right by you before speaking with him. I think that speaks volumes. Speaker 1 (5:53) Yeah. When I read it, I always get choked up at whatever Kiara has to say. Speaker 2 (6:00) She's really good at this. Well, Speaker 1 (6:02) yeah. I mean, she's just, I think her... Turn a phrase is always my favorite turn a phrase. And she just would say these things where you're like, you Speaker 4 (6:10) think? Speaker 4 (6:11) Because Speaker 1 (6:12) that's also like my friend who lives on my block. Speaker 4 (6:14) You know, Speaker 1 (6:15) that's Speaker 4 (6:15) the Speaker 1 (6:15) other funny part of it. And so to ask your friends to wax nostalgic about you or philosophical about you is a very surreal exercise. And this was my first time dealing with that, really. And so it was surreal and at times uncomfortable, but it was, I'm really proud of what he made and I'm really proud of what people are. taking away from it. He's Speaker 2 (6:39) also just great to talk to. Yeah, he's Speaker 1 (6:40) a Speaker 2 (6:40) mensch. Yeah, so I'm sure that was part of it too where it was like, oh no, I can do another hour of this. Yeah, it's funny and it's like Speaker 1 (6:46) the thing I kept saying to him was like, A plus B does not equal song. Speaker 2 (6:51) Yeah. Yes. You know, in the same Speaker 1 (6:53) way that like when I was investigating what Jonathan Larson was writing, it's not like every lyric makes sense because he asked a question first. Like there's stuff that he got from all different parts of his life to make the music that he made. And so like, because Daniel was, he loves a puzzle and he loves like, and he drew on this and he drew on this and out came wait for it. I was like, not exactly. So I just kept saying like, yes, these things are all true. They don't equal this thing that happened. There's this other mysterious thing that happens. Speaker 2 (7:26) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (7:26) Like it doesn't, there isn't a formula for this song existing. There are things I can point to. I can tell you that. Speaker 1 (7:34) I experienced loss at an early age, so death feels like a memory is a very personal thing to me. But it doesn't equal, like, it's not like, because this happened to me, this lyric exists. There's a third thing that is inspiration and is I'm catching something and these characters are saying something that I didn't know before and I'm writing it down that is a little ineffable. So when it feels like A plus B equals song, it doesn't feel true. Right, Speaker 2 (8:01) because there are all these other variables. Like, Speaker 1 (8:03) yes, that's a detail from my life that ended up in this, but that detail's not the reason the song exists. Sure. Causation is not correlation or whatever. Sure, yeah, Speaker 2 (8:11) whatever that thing is. I Speaker 1 (8:12) got a 67 in physics, I don't know. Speaker 2 (8:15) What was I going to, I was going to ask you. Oh, I loved the story of the most New York version of My Dog Ate My Homework, which was when you were making your short film in high school about the Hamilton bird duel and then... Someone ran up and stole the camera. It was Speaker 1 (8:29) very scary. It was Speaker 2 (8:30) terrifying. Speaker 1 (8:31) It was also the only time I've ever experienced, it was the only time I ever experienced any kind of crime in my neighborhood. Like truly, like I, you know, when I talk about like, I was walking with Meredith and she was holding the camera and a guy out of nowhere snatched it and was in the car and off before we even knew what happened. Like there was no conflict. It was just gone. And we were like. And that was my camcorder. Like I got that for Christmas. Like I don't have money for another one. Speaker 2 (9:00) Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:01) It was like a heartbreak in my life. Yeah. And I got a B minus on the paper. Although Mr. Steinfink says I got an A. I know. He told me Speaker 2 (9:08) that too. Speaker 1 (9:08) That's, everyone has a Rosie. I'll tell you something that's really interesting. Everyone has a story of what are you working on? I'm working on this thing called Hamilton. Oh Speaker 2 (9:17) my Speaker 1 (9:17) God. It'll never work. What did I know? Oh, Speaker 2 (9:20) give me a break. Speaker 1 (9:21) Countless people I've met have said, you remember I asked you about it? And I was like, that did not happen. You have invented that with hindsight. That's Speaker 2 (9:28) okay. Is it okay? Speaker 4 (9:30) Oh, Speaker 2 (9:30) whatever. I guess it doesn't matter. Everyone who Speaker 1 (9:32) lives, who dies, who tells their story. Everyone can tell themselves the stories they need. Speaker 2 (9:37) Yeah. As long as you know the truth. Speaker 1 (9:39) Yeah. I was like, that didn't happen, but Speaker 2 (9:40) okay. You can tell people at cocktail parties that it did. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (9:44) You Speaker 2 (9:44) need a story for the dinner party. That's okay. Speaker 1 (9:45) You can do that. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:48) Before we get to the Patreon peeps, you know, Mike has a few questions, but Ashley also has a question. My best friend, Ashley. He's asking you, can you give him three bangers for his running playlist? Because he just ran the New York City Marathon for the second time. And he's always looking for songs to run to. Do you have recommendations for that? I Speaker 1 (10:04) mean, you're catching me at a moment where I am like only listening to the new Rosalia album. Great. Speaker 2 (10:08) You and Lack. Oh my God, it's really Speaker 1 (10:10) extraordinary. But I'll tell you, because I was working out this morning and I listened to that a little. I like Squabble Up on Kendrick. I like Pretty and Petty on the new Cardi B album. I'm pretty and petty as fuck. I like, I mean, I would say Bodega Batty, but it's like two minutes long. It's not good for a running playlist. It's like a good for like a sugar high. Speaker 1 (10:38) New Ace of Brock came out a few weeks ago. Nice. There's a song called In the Cut on there. That's like a nice runner's pace. Yeah. Did I get three? You Speaker 2 (10:45) got like four. Okay, great. If you had to start a beef with another rapper, who would it be? Clarence from 8 Mile. You went to Cranbrook. That's a Speaker 1 (10:54) private school. I was laughing when I was listening to your Renee podcast because she did go to Cranbrook. Speaker 2 (10:59) Yeah. Can I also tell you something? That's Speaker 1 (11:00) a Speaker 2 (11:00) private school. Yeah. Clarence's parents have a real big family. I don't Speaker 1 (11:03) have any rappers I want to start a beef with. That's Speaker 2 (11:05) fair enough. I was so mortifying at the Delacorte at the premiere of the Hamill film because we had just recorded Renee and I like a few days before and I as you heard was talking about co-op a lot and then I Speaker 1 (11:18) saw Speaker 2 (11:18) the Speaker 1 (11:19) beige and the brown of the bitch yes Speaker 2 (11:20) and then I saw her in person and I just kept talking about it to Speaker 1 (11:24) her Speaker 2 (11:25) and and there was a moment where I turned to Mike and I was like I think I just said ruined like four times and I hi Speaker 1 (11:31) Judy Speaker 2 (11:33) You've been doing something that's annoying me. I'm going to talk to you about it right now. When you said I want song before, that's immediately what I went to. Speaker 1 (11:39) Well, she's used to it because I, when that came out, I bothered her constantly. And same with Girls 5 Ever. Like I'll text her screen caps from when I'm watching it at home. Speaker 2 (11:49) She's like, why are you still watching this? So good. Because it's good. I'm Speaker 1 (11:53) always perpetually on a rewatch. And Speaker 2 (11:56) it's just really nice to have around, to have on. You know, it's like good to be in that world. Speaker 1 (12:01) It's a lovely place to be. It Speaker 2 (12:02) really is, right? Yeah. Speaker 1 (12:04) Oh, Speaker 2 (12:04) my God. They're all so good and so funny. Ashley. Well, OK, here's what Ashley wants to know. You know that whole thing where it's like if you would cast a movie where it's all Muppets and one human? We could do. I had two movies maybe we could do it with. Either The Warriors or your version of The Warriors or Almost Famous. If you want to do all Muppets, one human. Oh, Speaker 1 (12:20) that's great. I thought you were going to ask about Hamilton because I was discussing that with Pippa and Jasmine. We Speaker 2 (12:24) could also do that. We could do any number of things. Which is, I think Speaker 1 (12:27) it's Leslie. I think Leslie's the human and everyone else is Muppets because, again, Leslie's in purgatory as per being like, why? Why did I shoot Kermit? The Speaker 2 (12:35) Michael Caine of... Speaker 1 (12:36) He's the Michael Caine. Okay. And almost famous, I think the human has to be William Miller. Yeah. Yeah, you always want it to be kind of the central protagonist. And in Warriors, that's tricky because it's an ensemble piece. Like you want the Warriors to all be Muppets. Maybe I'd make Luther the human. And it's still David Patrick Kelly of dislike. No Speaker 2 (13:00) reason. I like doing stuff Speaker 1 (13:03) like that. Speaker 2 (13:05) Those poor Muppets. They shouldn't be in the world of the Warriors. I mean, he scared the shit out of the Muppets. All of them. I guess Electric Mayhem we could use in Almost Famous very well. Absolutely. Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:16) Just Janice. Like, that is the fucking buzz. Yeah, Speaker 2 (13:19) right? Oh, yes. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Because I was going to say, I don't think she'd be Penny Lane. She could be Sapphire. Janice would make a good Sapphire, I think. Speaker 1 (13:27) Uh-huh. It's all happening. Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:29) Oh, my God. So good. I just Speaker 1 (13:30) finished reading Cameron Crowe's. Speaker 2 (13:32) book. I'm so excited about it. You were like, it's just basically... It's Speaker 1 (13:36) like the true stories. Here is the actual rock star who wouldn't let him print the truth. Here is the actual rock star who he couldn't get. He kept running from on tour. Oh my God. It's the real stories. I can't wait. It's what Lester Bangs really said to him. It's what Jan Wenner really said to him. And it's really close to the movie. It's actually amazing how accurate the movie is. He just kind of made a fictional band. Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:58) I'm so excited. I love, you know, how I feel about that movie. All right, Lynn, are you ready to take some questions from the Patreon peeps? I am. Speaker 1 (14:05) Do your worst to do your best. Speaker 2 (14:08) They're so sweet. Speaker 1 (14:08) Patreon peeps, wonder powers, activate. Perfect. Speaker 2 (14:16) If Speaker 1 (14:16) I were Shockwave, this would be much more impressive. Speaker 3 (14:18) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:20) And Speaker 2 (14:21) Patreon peeps. Speaker 2 (14:35) So just, you know, my disclaimer, we can't get to everyone. Because you have a relationship with them, too, in a lot of ways. I am one of you. I Speaker 1 (14:42) have submitted questions. Yes. Speaker 2 (14:45) I, too, know Speaker 1 (14:45) the sting of not being called. Speaker 2 (14:47) I know. Speaker 2 (14:49) They just love you so much. I'll send you all the love if you ever like want to have it. Rob says, all right, deep cut in the Hamilcast lore. In Tommy's first appearance, I used one of Rob's questions, which was in the spirit of chestnut checkers. Is there anything in the show that gets credited with a deeper meaning that you, Tommy, think? Really? That's just a happy coincidence. And he immediately replied, Lynn, next question. Speaker 1 (15:12) I had forgotten that. Speaker 2 (15:14) And Rob says, Secretary Miranda, your response? Because everyone loves, people love saying there are no coincidences in this show. What's a coincidence in this show? Speaker 1 (15:22) Oh, I mean, I may have said this. Have I been asked this question? 96,000. Speaker 2 (15:26) Yeah. We talked about it in 2020, I think. Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:29) Yeah. 32, 332 thousands is just a weird byproduct of editing that added up to 96,000. Right. There's the Heights reference I took out, which was the real Eliza Schuyler Hamilton. founded a school in Washington Heights. And in my first draft of the finale, I had them sing in Washington Heights. But you can't help but smile when you hear that. And we're in the orphanage. It's too late. And it's just like, he's referencing his own show in the 98 yard line. Fuck off. Speaker 2 (16:05) But Speaker 1 (16:05) it's true. He founded it in Washington Heights. So that's one I took out. That was the only Heights reference I ever made and it got taken out. like immediately, never even made it to music stands. I think the greatest one is