How memory changes you

The Gray Area with Sean Illing - Vox

In this episode of The Gray Area with Sean Illing, neuroscientist Sharan Ranganath explores the nature of memory, challenging the common bel

Key takeaways

• Memory is not a recording device but an act of creation, constantly reshaping past events into stories that shape our identity.
• The idea of 'better' or 'worse' memory is misleading; some people with exceptional autobiographical memories report being burdened by intrusive recollections rather than empowered.

Main topics

• The reconstructive nature of memory
• Episodic vs. semantic memory

Notable quotes

Remembering is also an act of creation. And it's possible that the next time you remember taking a walk on a sunny day, you'll also remember that you were listening to this podcast episode, even though that's definitely not the case.

Conclusion

Memory is not about perfect recall but about crafting meaningful narratives that

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:04) The Speaker 2 (0:05) city moves fast, but your vibe, that's different. Sharper, smoother, more alive. Speaker 3 (0:15) The new Speaker 2 (0:20) Honda City isn't just made to drive, it's made to feel. The new Honda City, all new vibe. Speaker 1 (0:29) When the world keeps shifting, we're there to help you act with confidence. At HSBC, we bring together the people, ideas, and capital that drive growth, backing your ambitions at every stage. So when you're preparing for the next generation, strengthening your portfolio, or you're entering new markets, we're there, bringing 160 years of experience to help you move forward. HSBC. Opening up a world of opportunity. Speaker 7 (0:58) Hey, it's me, Sean. If you're a close listener to the show, you've maybe noticed me mentioning that we just had a second kid. I'm pretty excited about that, of course, but it means that I'm going to take a bit of time off to be with my son. I'll be out for a while, but listen, twice a week, we will still continue to bring you the thoughtful, ideas-focused interviews you've come to know and love. You'll be hearing from some familiar Vox voices in the host chair while I'm out. Jacqueline Hill, who is the host of Vox's Explain It To Me podcast, and Miles Bryan, a reporter on Today Explained. And there will be a couple new guest hosts I'm excited for you to meet. And I'll also be popping in now and then with some conversations we're pre-recording before I take off, so you won't have to miss me too much. So stay put. I'll be back better than ever before you know it. Speaker 7 (1:47) Hey, it's Sean. Today, we're rerunning a conversation I had with neuroscientist Sharan Ranganath about memory. It's an episode that I frequently return to because in our culture, issues of truth often feel unsettled. This conversation forces me to reflect on why that is. Sharan and I discuss how memory works and why the stories we tell ourselves end up changing us. Close your eyes. Speaker 7 (2:21) Think of the first voice you ever loved. The smell of a room you can't quite place. Or think of something much simpler, like the last time you took a walk on a sunny day. Or that last company Christmas party where you're absolutely positive your dumb joke offended the CEO. Sit with those memories for a moment. The feelings they evoke. The sensations they bring back. Are you actually remembering all that? Or are you inventing it? We think of memory as a record of the past, but remembering is also an act of creation. And it's possible that the next time you remember taking a walk on a sunny day, you'll also remember that you were listening to this podcast episode, even though that's definitely not the case. Speaker 7 (3:18) Memory doesn't keep the past. It remakes it. It stitches fragments into stories. And those stories, true or not, are what we end up calling our life. And on a group level, it's what we end up calling our history. I'm Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area. My guest today is Sharan Ranganath, a neuroscientist and author of a book called Why We Remember. I asked him to join me for a conversation about the strange alchemy of remembering and how the stories our minds create end up creating us. Speaker 7 (4:05) Dr. Sharan Raghunath, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Sean. It's a pleasure. It's been too long since we had a legit, full-blown scientist on the show. Speaker 6 (4:17) Lots of pressure there. Yeah, Speaker 7 (4:19) you got to carry the banner. Let's get into this wonderful book you wrote. I learned a lot. And one of the things you say very early on is that Speaker 7 (4:32) The most important message to come out of the whole science of memory isn't that we should remember more, which is what everyone just naturally wants to do. You say that we actually have the wrong expectation about what memory is actually for. So I just wanted to start there. What is memory for? Speaker 6 (4:53) Well, I could tell you what it's not for, and this is where the wrong expectation comes in. It's not for storing and hoarding every experience from the past. It's about really giving us a resource that we can draw upon to understand what's happening right here and now, and to plan ahead and to anticipate what could happen in the future. Speaker 7 (5:14) So when... People say, I have a bad memory. My memory sucks. My memory is spotty. What do you think they're actually misunderstanding about how memory functions? Speaker 6 (5:27) Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I have that voice in my head, too, that says I have a terrible memory, right? But I've been saying that for a long time, and I never struggled in school. I could always remember things. that I needed to for work, for instance. And it wasn't so much that I had a bad memory as much as I couldn't always remember what I felt was important in the moment when I needed it. And I think that's what sometimes people feel. If somebody really has a bad memory, like a bad memory, they couldn't function in life. They couldn't work. They couldn't live independently. And I know because I've tested people and I've interviewed patients with bad, really bad, clinically bad memories, and they just can't function. So I think often when I see people complain about their memory, There are often hyper-functioning people who just feel like they should be remembering everything. And so that's what I'm talking about is I'm really addressing those people. Speaker 7 (6:32) If a truly bad memory means you can't function as an adult in the world, fair enough. But clearly some memories are better than others, right? Or is the mistake, my mistake, insisting on using words like better? or worse. That's Speaker 6 (6:48) exactly the mistake is using words like better or worse, right? So it's often, and I say that meaning that people often conflate more with better. So here's a good example of this, right? So there's people who have what's called highly superior autobiographical memory. So these are people who can go back. years into the past and recall from a particular date, like what they did for what they had for breakfast or, you know, who won a baseball game that day and what the score was, the weather that day, all of these details that most neurotypical people would not remember. Right. And so you think, OK, these people have a great memory. But for one, they don't in the sense that if you ask them to learn a new language, they will probably learn at the same speed as anyone who doesn't have highly superior autobiographical memory. Based on the research that's out there so far, there doesn't seem to be some kind of a benefit that makes them just better at everything. The second thing is we know if you look at reports from people with highly superior autobiographical memory, it's not like they're like Bradley Cooper on Limitless. They're not like controlling the world. They're not any more happy or successful than other people as far as we can tell. And if anything, they're a little bit plagued by this memory because they often will ruminate about things that happen, even very minor things that happen that were negative. And so is that a better memory? I mean, some people online I've seen have described it as a curse that they wouldn't wish on anyone. Speaker 7 (8:33) Yeah, I mean, look, I don't want to be Rain Man or Bradley Cooper here. But I'm sure I'm not alone. I wouldn't Speaker 6 (8:42) mind being Bradley Cooper for a day. I'm sure he has his own issues. Everybody does, right? Fair. Speaker 7 (8:49) It would be fun to be more handsome for a day. But setting that aside, my question would be, why is it that I can have near photographic memories about certain things, certain books, certain events, other mostly random, stupid, trivial stuff, and have so little capacity? so often to remember things like faces and names even though i'd very much like to remember faces and names and i think there are very good reasons moral uh social whatever to remember faces and names and yet i just consistently botch it why is that well Speaker 6 (9:32) there's a whole lot of reasons But if we talk about the problem of faces and names, this is something that everyone who complains about memory, this is the first thing that comes up. So you're not alone. Essentially, when we're trying to pull information from memory, we have a challenge, which is that memories compete with each other. So any experience that we have. there's all sorts of competition for it. And just as an analogy, you know, my desk right now, I'm trying to gather information for my taxes because I postponed them. And so there's just papers all over my desk. And I spend a good amount of time trying to find things all the time, right? And so memory can be thought of in a very similar way, that when you have a lot of similar things cluttered around and not organized, you're going to have a lot of competition, a lot of trouble finding it. But if there was one thing that truly stood out here, like if I had a violin amidst all these other things, I would be able to find that pretty easily, right? So here's the problem now, getting back to faces and names, is we hear many, many similar names, sometimes the same name attached to multiple faces, right? And faces are exceptionally similar to one another. Obviously, your face is different from mine, but... We both have two eyes, we have a nose, we have mouths. And even amongst people we know well, there's often a lot of similarity. So now we have a real problem is that we have a bunch of faces that kind of are similar to each other. There's a number of names that are similar to one another that we've seen in the past. And the association between a name and a face is just utterly ridiculous, right? I mean, how do you, there's nothing meaningful. linking a name to a face. So if you met somebody whose name was Baker, you know, hundreds of years ago, that would be easier because at least they were probably baking bread, you know, or Smith would be the guy who's making your suit of armor or your swords or whatever, right? And so now there's just no link between names and faces. There's nothing meaningful there. So that's why it's so hard. Speaker 7 (11:46) How differently does memory function? at different stages of life. I think we all understand that memory declines as we get older, but there are certain kinds of memory that seem to hold up better than others as we age, right? What is the reason for that? Speaker 6 (12:06) Let's get into the different kinds of memory, first of all. So, there's many different kinds of memory. Memory researchers love to slice them and dice them in different ways, but One that I think is meaningful, especially when we talk about development, is the distinction between what's called semantic memory and episodic memory. So semantic memory might be like, you know, remembering something about, let's say, like, you know, a history lesson that you took when you were in high school and remembering the facts about World War II or... being able to build knowledge about computers or something like that, and that kind of expertise that you can build up. But episodic memory is the ability to link something to one particular moment in time, like a movie that you saw about World War II when you were on a strange date when you were in college or something, and for some reason you decided to see an old showing of Midway or whatever it is, right? And those particular events that are unique to a place and a time are called episodic memories. And so when people say their memory gets worse as they get older, they're almost always talking about episodic memory. When you get older, you find yourself more forgetful, misplacing things and not being able to remember where they were or not being able to remember faces and names or the details from a conversation. semantic memory actually remains solid and even kind of improves a little bit as people get older. That knowledge about the world, it's not like when you're 70, you lose knowledge about all the things that you've learned, all that wisdom, so to speak, right? So what you do lose, though, is the ability to pull up those facts sometimes. And so you'll end up being like, I know the name of that actor, but I can't. get it. It's that guy who's in that thing. And that happens a lot too. And that's not an issue of losing the memory or not being able to form semantic memories as much as it is a problem of not being able to pull up that information. And that has to do with something else altogether, which we call executive function. And in fact, that's actually probably one of the biggest reasons why episodic memory gets worse as you get older. you lose that ability to regulate your attention, that ability to pull up strategies, that ability to kind of like not just make memories, but make memories useful. And that's related to the functions of an area called the prefrontal cortex. And the prefrontal cortex's function starts to decline pretty much from the age of 30, and it's a gradual decline in most people that continues throughout the lifespan. Speaker 7 (14:54) I'm on the wrong side of that. Speaker 6 (14:56) Yeah, me too. Unfortunately. I always tell people the biggest memory hack I can give is to tell people, what do