Likeability Expert: Stop Doing This, It’s Why People Quietly Avoid You! | Vanessa Van Edwards

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

In this episode of The Diary Of A CEO, Steven Bartlett sits down with behavioral researcher and author Vanessa Van Edwards to explore the science of conversation and human connection.

Key takeaways

• Conversation is a learnable skill that acts as a vehicle for achieving personal and professional goals such as promotions, relationships, and emotional well-being.
• The 'Autopilot Trap'—relying on scripted questions like 'How are you?'—leads to shallow interactions; replacing them with curiosity-driven prompts like 'What was the highlight of your day?' creates deeper engagement.

Main topics

• The science of human connection
• Nonverbal communication cues

Notable quotes

Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want.

We're slowly losing our ability to connect. I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human.

Conclusion

Vanessa Van Edwards emphasizes that mastering conversation is not just about charm—it's essential for emotional health,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) How do you know you talk too much? So first thing is nonverbal cues. Someone is checking out. If they are opening their mouth, as if to say something. I call it the open fish. And that's a subtle cue that you talk too much. Do Speaker 1 (0:10) you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me? Speaker 2 (0:12) Yes. Speaker 1 (0:13) And there was a recent study when they found that 95 % of people have worked with someone who talks too much. Speaker 2 (0:18) Well, I have a do you talk too much test. Speaker 1 (0:20) So there's five questions here. And if you answer more than three times, you're probably an over-talker. Yeah. Because my next question is like, which one's worse, over-talking or under-talking? Speaker 2 (0:28) Well, I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. And I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want. And Speaker 1 (0:34) I'm a recovering awkward person. And Speaker 2 (0:36) I really struggled with bad conversation. for a long time. But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. And because we're having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And I now more than ever am sending nine-minute voice notes to my friends. But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation. But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. But there's a blueprint to good conversation. And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. For example, we devised three different speech networking experiments with 500 speed networkers and the best conversation starter was actually what was the highlight of your day because the moment we asked how are you what do you do they ran out of things to talk about but the worst question in the history of conversations is But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk. Also a secret door into charisma. But also there are five archetypes. And this is going to impact getting our promotion and finding your soulmate. Speaker 1 (1:30) And we're going to go through all of them. But what are the ways to get out of a bad conversation without offending people? Speaker 2 (1:35) Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression. But we don't really think about the end. But it's all really important. And I discovered this framework. So... Speaker 1 (1:43) Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so... So, so much. Vanessa Van Edwards, on page five of your new book, Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis. And you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward, and less satisfying. At some level, I feel that too. My question to you is, why did you choose to write this book based on everything you could have written about, everything we've talked about before? Why is this book needed at this time? Speaker 2 (2:42) People who are investing in conversation skills right now, are creating career insurance. We like to work with people who are great at conversation. We like to be with people who are great at conversation. We like to date people who are good at conversation. And in this age of tremendous technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our ability to connect. And I think this is... the last generation that will... Speaker 2 (3:18) learn about conversation via human, I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. Is Speaker 1 (3:26) it possible to be great at conversation? And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there? What advantage will I experience in my life? For everybody listening now, what advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now? Speaker 2 (3:41) Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want, right? If you want a promotion, and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion. If you want to meet your soulmate, you have to have deep, connected, meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other. If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you a longevity boost. I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation as extra. You know, we sort of put it second. I know leaders focus on this a lot where they're focused so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element. And I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym. You know, we've focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health, right? If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation, and conversation, I think, is a skill to learn. I don't think you're born with it or you're not. I think you can learn to be good at conversation, and it's the one skill that keeps on giving. Do Speaker 1 (4:42) people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation? Like, are there symptoms one experiences when they're not good at conversation? Are they aware of that? Speaker 2 (4:51) Yes, there is. symptoms of being a bad conversationalist. And by the way, I should back up. As you know, I'm a recovering awkward person. And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. And I realized it was because I was asking the wrong questions. And I was approaching conversation the wrong way. The wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress, not discover. If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative. And that is so deeply unfulfilling. That is when small talk becomes soul-crushing. Speaker 1 (5:22) I Speaker 2 (5:23) have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world. And I only know this because I wasn't one for a long time. They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident. They're more authentically assertive. They get more energy from interactions, whether they're an introvert or extrovert, because their conversations are giving them energy, not taking energy. The symptom of bad conversation, and I hate to give someone a label of being a bad conversationalist, an exhausted conversationalist, is you dread it. Dread is a really important emotion. If you open your calendar and you see only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong, right? Conversation, like, boosts us, gives us energy. So you feel dread. in social interactions. You feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation. So if you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off. All you're worried about was what you're going to say next. It's actually just because you probably haven't learned the mechanics of conversation. There's a blueprint to good conversation. We're going to talk about it. Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood. You leave feeling like I was the worst version of myself or I wasn't able to be my best self. I think really good conversationalists, people leave conversation with them thinking, wow, after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better. And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I want to impress somebody. Speaker 1 (6:47) So how long have you spent doing the research that feeds into what we're going to talk about today and feeds into this new book? Speaker 2 (6:53) Okay, so accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for 20 years. Then 20 years ago, I realized that there are are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions. I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversationalists, they were following some kind of plan. Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began. And it started with an experiment. I call it my speed networking experiment. This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversations. So here's what we did. I knew there was some secret the conversationalists had. And I was like, I'm going to find it. So we... devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. We brought them in these rooms and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different. Really good conversation. You've seen, do you ever like, you know, of course, are Speaker 1 (7:40) they having Speaker 2 (7:42) a bad day? So, you know, a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning. It has that high energy. You see a lot of vocal charisma. The volume goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this. Speaker 1 (7:58) Like it has like Speaker 2 (7:59) very low energy, like apologetic facial expressions, like low volume. Then I assigned these networkers six conversation starters. Now I picked these conversation starters. I'm going to tell you what they are very carefully. Three of them I thought could do really well. And three of them I wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We gave them these six conversation charters and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it. One being, that was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had. To five being, that was the best conversation I've ever had. I want to marry this person or I want to connect with them on LinkedIn. Then we took all these ratings and we ranked them and there were clear winners and clear losers. The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness were, last choice, want to guess what last choice was? Last. Speaker 1 (8:46) In terms of an opener? In Speaker 2 (8:47) terms of just a question. A typical question you ask in the Speaker 1 (8:51) first few minutes. Speaker 2 (8:51) How are you? Number five. That was the fifth worst. Very close to the bottom. Sixth was? Speaker 1 (8:57) Something about the weather. Speaker 2 (8:58) What do you do? Speaker 1 (8:59) What do you do? That was the worst? Speaker 2 (9:01) The Speaker 1 (9:01) worst. Okay. Speaker 2 (9:02) Why? So these last two, how are you and what do you do, they're very socially scripted. Right. The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot. So there's a lack. It's more of a performance. There's a lack of like excitement in the conversation. And they ran out of things to talk about. They're fact based questions. And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got any kids? Married? The facts are dead ends. Right. So it's very hard for someone to break out of that fact because they're stuck in that social script. The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker. I was like, interesting that this one did best by lot. It was, what was the highlight of your day? Now, what this question does psychologically, it sounds casual. First of all, it's not too deep. A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep, too quickly, right? They're like, what is your greatest goal in life? And you're like, I don't know you, right? So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you. You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism. You're literally inviting their brain to think like, what was good? And then they think, well, highlight of my day. So one, we just broke autopilot. The moment someone goes, oh. And they're thinking for the first time, their brain goes, ooh, we get to do something new. So they got to think of something new and it was immediate. It wasn't like a too big of Speaker 1 (10:24) a Speaker 2 (10:24) question. The second question was, have anything exciting you're working on? This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do, right? If someone likes what they do, they're going to talk about it, but they're going to reframe it in something exciting. And if someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better. The third question, very, very simple, was do you have any fun plans coming up? These questions, the first three, are literally searching for good. You're inviting the other person to only think about good things and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life. Speaker 1 (10:57) Now the fourth question, the Speaker 2 (10:59) middle one, almost broke my data. And this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher. This fourth question, people either loved it or they hated it. They Speaker 1 (11:11) either gave it Speaker 2 (11:11) a five, that Speaker 1 (11:12) was like the most connective thing I felt all week, Speaker 2 (11:15) Or a zero, and a zero wasn't even an option on my scale. It was the question. What's your story? Speaker 2 (11:23) Now, what's your story? Have you ever been asked that question, by the way? Speaker 1 (11:27) Derivatives of that question. Speaker 2 (11:28) Okay. So extroverts tend to default to that question because they want to go a little bit deeper. But actually, that is a level three question. It is way too advanced for someone who's introverted or someone who has never framed their story that quickly. They're immediately put into cortisol. They're immediately put into fight or flight. They're like, what's my story? How can I get that to you so quickly? By accident, putting them into conversational fear. This is when I realized there's a hierarchy. We have to move through our conversations with different levels, right? This is why we have this. Speaker 1 (12:02) So for anyone that can't see because you're listening on Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, we have a three-tier little stage in front of us. Tier one, tier two, tier three. What are these three tiers? Speaker 2 (12:14) Okay. So Dr. Dan McAdams. found that conversation is actually not as fluid as we would like to think. That actually, when we're trying to connect with someone else, we are trying to move through three distinct levels. Level one is called general traits. This is why in those first few minutes, you're basically trying to Google fact check someone. Like, where are you from? What do you do? Married? Where do you live in LA? Right? Like you're trying to ask all those questions because there's a sort of social hierarchy. Our brain processes social facts from from least intimate to most intimate. So we cannot get to know someone on their deepest dreams and worries if we don't know the basic facts about them. So that is why we often fall into that trap of those fact-based questions. The key here is that really good level one question is taking those facts, but adding story, but adding emotion. So the best way to... to do level one better is you're swapping out those bad questions, right? How are you? What do you do? With looking for a story. I truly believe a fact is a stop sign. A story is a doorway. Speaker 1 (13:22) Give me an example of both. Speaker 2 (13:23) Okay. So one of them, we actually can place it on here, is what's your personal passion project? Okay. Now, what's your personal passion project is actually a hunt for stories. And Speaker 1 (13:32) would you open with that? Is that what you're saying? Or is it doesn't really matter? It Speaker 2 (13:35) has to come. It can come in the first few minutes. Now, I probably wouldn't walk into a room and be like, what's your personal passion project, Stephen? Right. It's a little bit much. We have to do our basic first impression and we can talk about, you know, first 10 words in a little bit. But as an opener question, it's better than how are you? And I have to pause here and say, everything I'm going to share takes a little bit of conversational courage. It's really safe to ask, how are you? it's really safe to ask, what do you do? But if you want to be memorable, if you want to actually spark connection, those won't serve you. So it does take a little bit of courage to ask this, but the answers you're going to get are incredibly interesting. You're going to get stories. You're going to get a hint at values. If you want to know if they're married or have kids, they probably will tell you by accident. So it's like a hunt for stories. Same with, right, I mentioned this one in the study. So working on anything exciting these days. This is, again, one of my favorite swap questions because you're hunting for something good. Now, When I think about conversation in level one, you're trying to gift someone a chemical cocktail a little bit. And I think in level one, these two questions are doing a lot of heavy lifting. They are now competing with your feed. I went to a PTA meeting recently, and those are torture if you've ever been to one for any parents. Speaker 1 (14:49) What's a Speaker 2 (14:49) PTA meeting? Oh, a parent-teacher meeting. Okay. Right, so a bunch of other parents in the room. And I wanted to go meet other moms because I just moved across the country to try to meet more people. And I was, like, excited. I was like, okay, I'm going to meet more moms. Here we go. And I walk in the room, and everyone's scrolling. Everyone's on their feed. And I realized, wow, conversation now. is not just about a way for me to make friends. It actually has to compete with that feed. Speaker 1 (15:16) I Speaker 2 (15:16) have to make my questions and my answers so dopamine worthy that they're actually going to beat that feed. Speaker 1 (15:22) Otherwise, they're going to go right back to their phone. Speaker 2 (15:25) That is why these have to do more lifting. Because if I want to compete with the feed, I have to produce dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of motivation. I also have to create what I would call, forgive me for this word, but conversational confetti. This is like we got to lift a little bit more in our conversations because otherwise someone's going to go right back to scrolling. Their brain is somewhere else. Either their brain is in their email list or their brain is on their feed. In this research, when I was studying amazing conversationalists, one of the people I studied is Howard Stern. So however you feel about Howard Stern, he is a master conversationalist. I mean, he can carry on long, very interesting. He gets people to say things that I could never imagine. So I analyzed thousands of transcripts of his interviews, and I found one pattern. He does a very good job of creating information gaps. So he'll say, what's the weirdest thing you've ever done? Or he'll say, the most surprising thing that happened to me yesterday, you want to hear what it was? And your brain doesn't like not knowing. So when it hears the most surprising, the weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the most embarrassing, the brain creates this gap, like it's Speaker 1 (16:34) this Speaker 2 (16:34) information gap where the brain is like, I have to know. Speaker 1 (16:36) What Speaker 2 (16:37) is the weirdest thing? So also what happens with these kinds of questions is we're creating these little information gaps. And actually saying and using in conversation these phrases is a way that we can create more intrigue and interest. And I know that sounds like, what? But think about this. If something crazy happened to you yesterday and you walk into dinner and you're like, guys, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, everyone's like, phone's down. Right? Now, I couldn't say something boring. I couldn't be like, I was stuck in traffic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you want to be funny. Speaker 1 (17:07) But Speaker 2 (17:07) I think that looking for opportunities to create that little bit of conversational confetti, they come up with questions like this. And this is the last one. So... Have any fun plans coming up now. The reason why this one is important and I agonized over this third question because there's three questions for each level is have any fun plans coming up is a subtle way to bring up potential shared future. Psychologically speaking, we bond with someone when we feel like we could do something fun with them or they're doing something fun that I would also like to do. I think that part of these questions is being known for asking better questions, like being known. for searching for or hunting for excitement. Because what will happen is with people who know you at work or your work friends or outside of work friends is they'll bring these things to you. They know that you're going to ask out personal passions. So next time you get to say, hey, last time we were talking, you mentioned X, Y, Z. How's that going? So they also become your callbacks. They make conversation easier later. Speaker 1 (18:10) Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they? In terms of both skill, but also like will. And energy and like willing to do it. I think there'll be a lot of, one might say introverts listening right now that just think, what's the fucking point? Like, you know, I don't like people anyway and it's so much energy and I've got to ask these questions and pretend to be interested. This is going to drain me. Oh Speaker 2 (18:32) my gosh. I agree. And two things can be true. It's very exhausting in the sense of you're trying, right? Like we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk. Speaker 1 (18:46) I Speaker 2 (18:46) find it exhausting to stand at an event or be schmoozing with people backstage and be talking about nothing. Do you want to have very boring, predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting to get home to Netflix? That's one hard. That's not what I would choose. or do we choose the heart of, I'm going to break a script, right? I'm going to try to do level one better. I'm going to try to, you know, trigger a little bit of dopamine. I'm going to try to learn something that I didn't know before, which is going to maybe, just maybe, bring joy. If you get a really great answer, by the way, there's two sides of conversation, talking and asking. Speaker 1 (19:22) I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about. And so I think connecting this level one stuff to those high, to their highest goals is like critical for the behavior to occur and for it to like net out in the incentive equation has been worthwhile. Yes. Because if you can tell me how asking, have any fund plans coming up is going to help me become a better CEO or founder or whoever I want to be, father, mom, daughter, whatever, then I'm in. Speaker 2 (19:52) Yes. Okay. So. Let's talk about founders and CEOs specifically. There is a mistaken belief, and I work with a lot of companies, right? I work with a lot of founders. They believe that conversation is anti-productive. They worry that, oh, I don't know if I want my employees to talk a lot. You know, I can't waste time on small talk. The research shows the opposite. And also, logically, if you think this through, connected people collaborate better. Speaker 2 (20:22) engaged employees work better together. We are more productive when we feel good. And in fact, the key word here is friction. When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves. You don't have psychological safety. They have a really hard time brainstorming. You have people who withhold information. You have more information silos. Communication friction costs companies money. And so if you have a community of employees who have very easy level one, they don't need to get to level three. You don't need to get to level three with everyone in your company. You don't need to get to level three with your Uber driver. But if you have really... easy small talk, easy banter, where someone knows, oh yeah, I know exactly what their personal passion project is. I know who they are. I know what fun plans they have coming up. The first five minutes of your meeting becomes not only frictionless, but actually pleasurable. People show up on time. People are more productive. People want to be there because they actually want to connect and collaborate with her. And this is remote or in person, right? Because they know they have these Very loose ties. And loose ties actually make us more productive. And so we are looking for frictionless communication. And that happens at level one. In fact, work conversations should be really ideal level ones. Is Speaker 1 (21:36) this in part also the fastest way to get to connection? Speaker 2 (21:41) Yes. Speaker 1 (21:42) Because these CEOs or founders or busy people generally are very time poor. For Speaker 2 (21:46) sure. So Speaker 1 (21:46) they don't have 30 minutes to move their way to connection. Are you saying that? These are Speaker 2 (21:50) shortcuts. Speaker 1 (21:51) Okay. Speaker 2 (21:52) Right? So, like, it's way worse for a CO to be like, shoot, I've been told I better be warmer. Speaker 1 (21:56) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 (21:58) Most of my students are brilliant, very talented, very smart, but a little awkward and want to get it done. Right? They're much more focused on the confidence and the warmth. So they try to do warmth because they feel like they should. And they're like, how are those kids? Speaker 1 (22:12) And Speaker 2 (22:12) then it's like a social script. Good. Or how are you? Good, busy. Busy, but good. And they're like, well, it's not working. Ah, it was anti-productive. No, I'd rather you skip ahead. Make this level quick and good, right? So like the team intervention that I encourage every virtual or in-person team to do is once a week at the start of a meeting, start with tell me something good. Very, very quickly. Everyone goes around very quickly and they share one win or something good. It can be small, it can be big. That can take less than three minutes, less than five minutes, depending on how big your team is. We do it on our Tuesday team calls at my team. What it does is you've just created a safe, very contained space for good level one. It's only good. So otherwise, people will accidentally complain, right? They'll be like, oh, the weather, oh, traffic, right? But you're putting a frame around it that's good. You're time boxing it, right? Everyone goes around really quickly, but you're very quickly creating these team connections. So creating time in your meetings, but also in your culture to ask slightly better questions. Speaker 1 (23:11) All of these level one things have one thing in common, which is they provoke a positive search and response. Speaker 2 (23:16) Yes. Speaker 1 (23:16) So that's really the crux of level one. It's just a question that's producing a positive response. Speaker 2 (23:21) Sorry, it's not always positive. I do believe in toxic positivity and toxic positivity can kill a conversational vibe very quickly. What we're actually looking for is emotion and story. Speaker 1 (23:33) Right. Speaker 2 (23:34) So I might say, and by the way, my introverts, I love my introverts. They always say, well, what if someone says they don't? You ask them, what's your personal passion project? And they say, I don't have one. Well, great. What an opportunity. If someone doesn't have a personal positive project or they're going through a hard time or they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better. So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive. You're looking for any kind of real emotion. So then someone says, you know what? I've been really going through a hard time and, you know, I haven't had much energy to work on personal passion these days. And then you have the choice. You can say, wow, is there anything I can do to help? Or you can say, do you want to talk about it? So it's not always positive. It's looking for authentic emotions and ideally story. And this is another, one of the other master conversationalists I study who's excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld. So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick. This is in level one of the book. which is he often meets people after his event and they're so starstruck by him that they don't know what to say and conversation is really awkward. He has a little awkwardness. He's developed a trick and this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers-based question. Speaker 1 (24:47) So instead of how are you, where do you Speaker 2 (24:49) live? So how long have you two been together? And then if it's 38 years, you say, oh, what's been the highlight of your 38 years? If it's really short, oh, you're in the honeymoon phase. What's the best part? Speaker 1 (25:01) So it's a numbers question. And this works really well for introverts as well is Speaker 2 (25:05) because it's fact-based. So it's like an opener. And then usually from there, it's a jumping off point to a story. So it's not that level one should always be positive. That's great if it can be. Speaker 2 (25:15) practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small emotion or a small story. Speaker 1 (25:20) Okay. So the other day I was in Las Vegas and I was doing this sort of like step and repeat meet and greet thing after the event. And people come up and they're kind of ushering them through very quickly. So I always want to, you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time. What would you recommend? And this might be applicable for networking generally, but what would you recommend? Speaker 2 (25:39) Okay. So I always, whenever after speaking about book sending, I say, what was your favorite part? Or what did you learn the most? So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them. And that's actually level two, which we can skip. We're not going to skip two of our head. But what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two. So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you. Speaker 1 (25:59) What's the difference between Speaker 2 (25:59) level one and level two? Okay. Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped ahead. Okay. So we'll put a pin in this. One of the things I want to say about that question is I read this framework. I read about Dan McAdams' framework and I was doing this conversation research. And then I got invited to a party, one of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to. And I get in and they tell me to take off my shoes. So I'm committed, right? I can't leave. Yeah. And then they go, guess what? We have a rule for this party. I'm Speaker 1 (26:27) like, Speaker 2 (26:27) what? They're like, you cannot talk about what you do. Now, this was a party of, I think, very other successful people. And all of us are like, what? Because I don't know about you, but I'm pretty defined by what I do. I talk about it. I love it. So I start to panic because I'm like, what do you even talk about if you don't talk about that? Because so many of our conversations veer into work. And so I had to, one, my brain was flipped off of autopilot immediately. And I had to get more creative with my questions. And I had to also think. I was like, I'm just going to discover things about them. I'm going to try to figure out what they do by not asking. And that was an aha moment of we should treat level one, these three bottom questions, as a treasure hunt. That if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intention. And especially what I ended up asking was, what do you talk about when you don't talk about work? Speaker 2 (27:24) which was sort of this freedom. It gave us this freedom in conversation where I want to give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics. It does not have to be what you do. It can be about anything that is engaging you or exciting you in that moment. That is level one. Level two. So we have general traits. We must start there. We cannot skip too quickly to level two. Level two is called personal concerns. Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply. This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries. And Speaker 1 (28:00) I'm assuming you do level two once you've got past level one connection. Exactly. So this is us going deeper. We're going deeper. Exactly. Speaker 2 (28:07) Or leveling up as you wish, right? As you wish. So the mistake traps people make is they skip level one. They try to go too deep quickly and people feel like it's invasive. Right. Especially when you're like, whoa, slow down. Or it can feel like an interrogation. So we must know those basics first, as long as we do them better. We don't do them in autopilot way. Level two is when you start to understand what motivates someone. The kind of mental trick that I use is, you know, you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning, like what goal is driving them all day. But you also know what keeps them up at night, Speaker 1 (28:37) what Speaker 2 (28:38) worries them. I, you know, I encourage people as they're reading, like, think of the five people you interact with most. and place them on a level. Like, do you only know the basic facts about them? Are you all the way at level three, which we're going to get to? It's sometimes helpful. You'll notice patterns. Like, I don't know about you, but I love level two. Like, I want to get through level one as quickly as possible. I want to get to your motivations. I want to get to your secret side hustle. I want to get to your dreams and passions. I want to know what keeps you up at night. But I can sometimes jump too fast. Level two is about making someone feel heard and understood. And this is different than discovering treasure. And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building. So dream building is everyone has like a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle, a secret passion. Can you be there and help them uncover it? That's the goal of level two. Speaker 1 (29:31) So give me an example of dream building. Speaker 2 (29:33) Okay, so before we started, I said to you, I have a new goal, right? Like I'm pitching a TV show. That's like my secret side hustle. That's level two for me. It's something that I've been working on secretly and quietly. And if we were at lunch, I would have told you all about it. We would have double clicked on it. So like that's an example of one. Another example to think about is what does someone daydream about? What is occupying their mind in a good way? The other way that I, a framework that I give for folks is a pet or pest project. So what is someone's pet project? Like a pet at home, you kind of think about it, you dream about it, you hope about it. Like what is someone hoping to achieve or find or do? And what is their pest project? Like a pest in the attic, it worries you. You wonder like, how can I get rid of that pest? How can I eradicate it? And they want help with it, but they're too afraid to ask. Pest projects have a lot of shame. On level two, people have to feel safe enough to expose what they feel shame about. But pet projects, the things they love, have a lot of pride. And so you're trying to figure out in conversation, could you let someone feel safe enough to share either one? Speaker 1 (30:40) And are there questions that evoke dream building? Speaker 2 (30:44) Yes. Okay, so what have you always wanted to learn is an interesting question because it triggers growth mindset, right? So growth mindset is when someone believes they can change themselves, change who they are, change their trajectory, learn something Speaker 1 (30:57) new. So we like this question Speaker 2 (30:59) because you're asking, are you willing to grow with me? What have you always wanted to learn? The other easy one is what is your biggest goal right now? So what is your biggest goal right now is a great question. And you can also time anchor it. Anytime someone has Speaker 1 (31:12) a birthday, you can ask, what's your big goal this year? Speaker 2 (31:15) That's Speaker 1 (31:15) actually a level two. Speaker 2 (31:17) Right? You're like leveling them up in a safe way because they're talking about their birthday. Around New Year's, January and December, I ask everyone I know, what's your biggest goal right now? New quarter, new performance review. When we talk about goals, it activates a part of our brain that triggers dopamine. When we think about our future self, it activates a part of ourselves that wants to get motivated. And so level two is also... giving someone motivation, that in conversation, they're actually discovering an aspect of themselves. They're tapping their own resource for motivation. It Speaker 1 (31:47) gives them permission to dream a little bit. Yeah. Speaker 2 (31:49) And you're giving them the motivation that they already have, but you're bringing it into the conversation. I think recently we are so into intrapersonal, like a lot of what you see on social media right now is mindset and mantra. and affirmation and productivity. And I love all of those things. But that means that people are actually using all that excitement alone when they're journaling or when they're meditating or when they're working on their to-do list. We have forgotten, I've noticed, to bring those goals into conversation. We're almost like embarrassed. I don't know if you've noticed this, but it's almost like people are like embarrassed to talk about their secret side hustle or they're embarrassed to talk about their secret passion. If we give someone permission to bring in What they have been motivated about privately into conversation, you get to be an ally. What if you're Speaker 1 (32:39) met Speaker 2 (32:39) with a Speaker 1 (32:39) dead end when you ask these kind of level two questions? Well, Speaker 2 (32:42) then you get to answer. Speaker 1 (32:43) Because some people haven't quite figured out what their biggest goal is. Speaker 2 (32:46) Absolutely. Especially also sometimes introverts in conversation. I've asked these questions to thousands of people and all different kinds of things happen when I do that. Introverts also need more time to process. So you might ask them, you know, what are you learning right now? Or what's your biggest goal? And they might... in the moment, not know. They just need a little bit of time to process. And so two things can happen is if they don't have it yet, that's okay. You also have opportunity to share. Speaker 1 (33:12) But what if I, you know, I ask, I'm thinking because, you know, I know a lot of taxi drivers listen to this podcast because I get in taxis and we talk about it. I love it. Taxi drivers, you know, they're conversationalists, often very good ones. But sometimes I guess a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the backseat doesn't want to talk. and they might hit them with one of these, you know, level ones and then the level twos, and they're just getting brick walls. Then Speaker 2 (33:34) I would respect that, right? If someone doesn't want to talk to you... Speaker 1 (33:37) Do you just back out? Speaker 2 (33:38) Yeah. Okay. Because then they're going through their own thing, right? Like if... You have to have also courage to be disliked. Right? Like you can try your best in conversation. You can bring the best questions. But if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that? So I also think that asking some of these are like bids. It's like a bid to see like, can we do this? You want to banter with me? Should we have level one? Should we even dip into level two? Great. If not, cool. They're not your person or it's not their day. Speaker 1 (34:09) So if they don't take the bait. Speaker 2 (34:11) It's okay. Okay. The text drivers usually ask me, got anything exciting today? Speaker 1 (34:16) Are Speaker 2 (34:16) we going anywhere exciting? Great. That's a great swap for level one. I should say, by the way, these questions are suggestions. If you can modify them to fit what you are doing, even better. Like, for example, you and I are in book signings or we are meeting people after speaking events. It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, hey, what did you learn? Or did you learn anything new? Or what was your favorite part? Right? We're modifying that for us. A text driver is going to modify it for, are we heading anywhere exciting? Doing anything exciting today? So, like, these are not prescriptions, right? They are guidelines to try to make the research applicable. You know, I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies, and some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget. And Dan McAdams' research is so incredible, but when I first read it, I did not know how to use it. I was like, general traits, personal concerns, like level one, two, I wasn't sure. So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions, but you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you. The goal in level one, treasure hunt, put someone at ease, ask them about what they love, harvest story. The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire, or a secret worry. And level three, we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one more level three. Hold on. Level two question. On Speaker 1 (35:38) these questions, do you have to actually care about the answer? Do you have to authentically care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is? Does it matter if you don't actually care? Speaker 2 (35:50) There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet. So I would say. You don't care yet. What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet, but then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about? I think we don't know always if we're going to care about someone because we've just met them. But maybe you will, right? Like you never know who's going to be your next best friend. You never know when you're going to hear an aha moment that's going to change your business. So many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question and someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice. Speaker 1 (36:28) So is it okay to pretend to care? Speaker 2 (36:30) If you're asking the question, you care enough to try. If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, I know I should. I know I should be a master computationalist. Like so many leaders who I work with, they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm. I think that's intent enough, right? We just got to find the ones that work for you. And Speaker 1 (36:54) you talked a second ago about these questions that lead to dead ends, which are like, what you do. What are the other examples you gave? Okay, Speaker 2 (37:02) I have a question that I hate a lot. I hate it a lot. I want it to leave our vocabulary. It's the worst question in the history of conversation.