Sarah Matthews and Jason Horowitz: Trump Propaganda and Italian Fascism

The Bulwark Daily

The episode explores the erosion of press freedom in the United States through Trump's recent actions to control White House media credentia

Key takeaways

• The Trump administration is actively reclaiming control over the White Hall press pool rotation from the WHCA.
• Recent bans on outlets like CNN and Politico signal a move toward a state-run media model similar to authoritarian regimes.

Main topics

• White House Press Pool Control
• Trump Media Tactics

Notable quotes

This is an attack on the free press.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a warning about how media manipulation and popul

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:12) Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Daily. I am your host, Tim Miller. I got a great email, an uplifting email this morning from a listener, Nicole Bassett, who said that, in part because of some rants that I've done on this show, she decided to jump into an R-plus-19 state senate district in Oregon. And I do truly believe this. I just think that there are not enough people running in some of these local districts that you think are Republican. where folks might be gettable this year because they're so unhappy with Trump. And so I'm happy Nicole jumped in. You can go find out more about her at Bassettfororegon.com. Appreciate her. We got a double header for you today. In segment two, it is Jason Horowitz, an old friend of mine. We're going to talk about fascism in Italy and the bulwark pope. But up first, couldn't be happier to welcome back to the show a contributor to the bulwark doing our TikToks and more. She's also sparring with Scott Jennings on CNN a lot and really getting some good reps in there. She used to be deputy White House press secretary in the first Trump administration. It's Sarah Matthews. What's up, Sarah? Speaker 1 (1:15) Hey, Tim. Thanks for having me back on the pod. Happy Speaker 3 (1:17) to do it. I wanted to chat with you a little bit because I feel like sometimes, you know, I like I get into my insidery gossipy side about politics. And like a lot of people out there, they're like, what the fuck are you talking about, Tim? And I think that's particularly potent when you get into these kind of media. stories around what's happening in the White House. And so that'd be interesting since you were there as a deputy press secretary, like talk about like, just like the basics of what's happening here with like the, you know, with Politico and CNN and MSNOW getting kicked out. Like, what does that mean? Like, do these guys have an office in the White House? Like, how do you get a seat in the pool? Like, like maybe just kind of run through for people, like what actually happens and then why it's significant. Yeah. Speaker 1 (2:02) So you can be credentialed White House media and not necessarily be part of the pool because the purpose of the pool is that it's just a select number of reporters who are on duty to follow the president's movements that day. And that's because you can't have all of these hundreds of credentialed White House media in the room at every event. You can't squeeze them all into the Oval Office. You can't take them all on Air Force One. And so it becomes this group of around 15 to 20 reporters. And it's all split up between you have print reporters who are putting out a pool report of what the president is doing and saying throughout the course of the day. You have a TV camera crew that is there that is recording all the video and audio. And then they're sending that and sharing it to all the other TV networks, a radio reporter, still photographers, the list goes on. And so you have those reporters who are on duty to. be part of the White House press pool that day, and then just share and disseminate what they are gathering from the president's actions that day. And the reason that this is important is because the White House is sending out its own information. They send out their own transcripts. They publish their own photos and video and all of these things. But the White House gets to choose and be selective about what they are sharing with the public. And so that's why you need an independent. White House press pool that is there gathering what is actually happening because they can tell you, here's what happened when the cameras were off. Here's who walked into this meeting or left this meeting and give you all these details that maybe the White House wouldn't be so willing to share. And what we've seen happen, actually, that's been interesting even before Trump's ban on Politico and CNN and MSNOW is that at the beginning of Trump's tenure in Trump 2.0, the White House actually took control of the White House pool. Typically, this was decided by the White House Correspondents Association. They would set the rotation for who was a part of the pool each day. But when Caroline Leavitt took over as press secretary, that was probably the biggest change that she made was that she said, no, we're taking that away from the White House Correspondents Association and we're going to be deciding who those pool reporters are. And that gave them substantially more power over how the president was covered. And that's why we're seeing, you know, these new media seats sometimes be part of which I would say is bullshit, fake news. interpretation of fake news, but these kind of fake outlets like OANN and Newsmax and where it's completely biased. But Caroline took control of that and set who the pool reporters were. And now we're seeing what the consequences of that are, of Walker even giving a little bit of power to the White House, where now the White House is banning. certain press from not just being part of the pool, but not even having access to the White House in general. I Speaker 3 (5:07) think this is why this is just important in a layman's way, right? Because it's just like it kind of layers the propaganda upon propaganda, right? And this has been happening slowly, right? Where you're inviting in these more new media people. So it's like now OAN's in there and now Newsmax is in there. Now Lindell TV has a seat, right? And like all of this like nonsense, right? And so they're in the rotation. And so the White House is putting out one thing, but then the people that are there to monitor it. are basically in league with the White House, right? And so they're like still some people around, you know, but like this has been like a gradual move away from it. And to me, like that ties into like the other thing that they just launched yesterday, which was Trump TV. There's a great article our guy Brendan wrote in the Bulwark. He had to suffer through six hours of Trump TV. Luckily, they're not good at propaganda yet. It's extremely boring. And Brendan, I think, wanted to... start doing self-harm after a few hours. But like... Brendan needs a raise Speaker 1 (5:57) for everything that Sam puts him through. Speaker 3 (5:59) Go read his article. But to me, like everything, this is all in service of just like building to more and more of just a full propaganda effort that like looks more like how things look in authoritarian countries. And like, we're not there yet, you know, but like that is the trajectory this is going. Speaker 1 (6:21) No, it's a slippery slope. And I think that even if you don't watch CNN or MSNOW or read Politico and you don't care about these journalists that are being affected by this ban, you actually should care as an American because this is an attack on the free press. And the purpose of a free press is so that we can have an independent media body that is holding our government to account. And our government is... operating in our name. And so we should care about what they're doing. And that is what's so scary about state run media is that we wouldn't be getting this independent account of everything that's happening. And, you know, for now, the it seems like some of the media networks are banning together to push back on this ban. We saw that the TV networks all said that they weren't going to carry Trump's remarks at the United Nation because of him. banning CNN and CNN was supposed to be the TV pool reporter that day. And I don't know how long that will last. Obviously, these networks are challenging it in court. And I think it's going to very much be struck down. It just depends on how soon and how quickly that can happen. But these media networks for now are banning together. But we're not sure how long that will hold and that will last. And I mean, it's my frustration with them because they all seem to... kind of bend the knee a bit. I mean, I think back to them even hosting the dinner, the White House Correspondents Dinner with him. I mean, it's just such a slap in the face to the free press and then something like this happens and it's not a shocking thing to me at all. Speaker 3 (7:56) It's just crazy to me they went to that dinner still. It's one thing and one night, but it's like in retrospect, you went to this fucking cozy, jokey dinner with the guy and then a couple of months later, what did you think was going to happen? Yeah, a couple of months later, he's going Speaker 4 (8:08) to Speaker 3 (8:08) take your credential away. There's still some, I mean, Caitlin, And he gets to other places where they don't have as much control as they do inside the White House. So they did have Caitlin Collins up in New York yesterday. I got a kick out Speaker 4 (8:18) of Speaker 3 (8:18) that. Trump was like yelling at her. I'm surprised CNN is here covering me. You shouldn't be here. You should not be here. So I did like watching him flail on that. All right. I want to talk about a couple of things. I was seeing some music last night. And right before he came on, I was able to get a little jolt of energy. But it wasn't from the alcohol. It was from like just a big. Hefty snort of hopium when the Texas poll came off. It was just a big fat line of hopium came right across my phone. Marist poll in Texas. Legit pollster. Talrico 50. Paxton 44. I think it's the first Talrico 50 I've seen, at least in a legitimate poll. I get a little bit worried when he's like up 47, 43, because a lot just might mean that he just can't get to 50. Marist has been pretty good. You look at the last three cycles, they've been off by about two points on average. Again, we could be in a Seltzer situation. She also was pretty good for a while. But this is a huge trend of polls. It's not one outlier. And for a really solid pollster there in Texas to have Talrico up six. Are you getting high on Hopium with me? Where are you at? Speaker 1 (9:21) I think I'm getting high with you. I think that this seems like the perfect storm for Texas to finally go blue. And it took a lot of factors to get there. You look at the state of... the economy and Trump's leadership and how frustrated voters are with him. But then you look at who Tallarico is running against. I mean, Ken Paxton is just a dream candidate for Democrats to be running against, just so corrupt, so unlikable. I mean, even John Cornyn and George W. Bush are fundraising for Republican Senate candidates, not including someone from their own state. They're not. fundraising for Ken Paxton. So even Republicans within the own party are against this guy. And so then, you know, you put up a Boy Scout like Tallarico. I think that it really is just a perfect storm. And I think there's a chance that Texas goes blue. You're saying Speaker 2 (10:17) there's a chance. Speaker 3 (10:18) I did a big rant about Georgia W over on the Next Level feed. So if people want to, you know. feel my rage and how incensed I am about George W.'s fundraiser. Nice that he didn't do Paxton, but that he was doing the other people. You can go check out the next level. I'm not. I can't do Speaker 1 (10:33) it. Speaker 3 (10:33) Disappointing to see Speaker 1 (10:34) him put party loyalty over the country. Speaker 3 (10:37) Yeah. In the spirit of compassionate conservatism, I'm going to fundraise for a bunch of people that are voting for Donald Trump's gulags. Anyway, I don't know. Not for me. That's people that supported the gutting of Pet Park. Okay. Go to the next level. I already did 10 minutes on this. I just want to get your take. I always, whenever you're on, I kind of like to have your temperature because I feel like you're me from five years ago where I still kind of had a temperature on what was happening in Republican operative world because people still talk. Nobody talks to me anymore. And so, you know, you have a few tentacles still left since it was a more recent departure. Give me a vibe check on, you know, how people are feeling in your life about kind of the state of Trump. Speaker 1 (11:18) Yeah. People are often surprised to hear that I still have. connections into the Republican Party and Trump world. And I mean, it's just a product of having worked in Republican politics for so long. And yes, there are a lot of people who don't fuck with me anymore. And I'm happy that they don't. And I don't fuck with them either. But there are some people who still talk to me and, you know, we'll talk shop and they know how bad things are. I mean, they see the writing on the wall. They know that November is going to be brutal. And they privately say things to me like. God, all this is so batshit. Like just the other day, I had multiple people text me about Trump TV and the state run media. I mean, it's basically state run media. And I had people who work in the administration and on Capitol Hill who work for Republicans who said to me, this is insane. And, you know, and I've had conversations with them about. you know, Trump's decision to launch the war with Iran and all these things where it's like these are unforced errors on his part where they're self-inflicted wounds that he has made this situation so much worse for them. And and they are frustrated. And so, yeah, I have a lot of people who. who privately say to me, Sarah, I love your bulwark videos and I'll watch them. You'll never see me liking any of them, but just know that I support you and that you're right. And I'm like, Oh, Speaker 3 (12:45) thanks. Profile encourage. You can't even do it. I Speaker 1 (12:48) try not to hold our soldiers Speaker 3 (12:51) fighting the war in Iran. Think about the soldiers on the USS Lincoln and what they're doing. And you won't even like my Instagram post. There's this poll in puck yesterday that I sent you. I want to just talk about for a sec. Where's this been this big change? It's kind of became a common poll question over the last 10 years. Did I get a sense for Trump's sway within the party? Like, are you more of a Republican or more of a Trump fan? Basically, it's the question. And in January of 25, after he wins, it's 60 Trump, 36 Republican. This could be answer that question. This week, the poll that came out was 34 % Trump, 56 Republican. So a flip. This is just within Republican voters, of course. I think that's interesting. There's some ways to look at that in a hopeful way. It's like many people are like, I've had enough of the crazy. There's another way to look at that, which is like of the 56, maybe like some of those people are like, I'm not Trump because I'm more of some other, you know, more even populist nationalist version of the party. I'd like to dig into that a little more. But I wonder like what your reaction is to that and if you're sensing any kind of vibe shift. there. Speaker 1 (13:59) You know, it's like when I initially saw that, it gave me hope and I got excited about it. Speaker 3 (14:06) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:06) And then reality starts to set in a bit and I try not to get too excited about things anymore. And that's just I've become so cynical about our politics and today's Republican Party. And so I look at that 56 percent and I think how many of those people would still vote for Trump if he were on the ballot today? probably nearly all of them. And, but maybe I'm wrong and I hope I'm wrong. And I hope that, you know, this is a sign that the Republican party is healing and that they're moving away from this cult of personality and that they've had enough of Trump. But like, I think about what did it take to get your higher gas prices? That was what it took for you guys to, to get here, to flip on him. I mean, beggars can't be choosers. I'm happy if people are identifying. That's Speaker 3 (14:53) not encouraging, really. Yeah, I'm Speaker 1 (14:54) happy if people are identifying more first and foremost as members of the Republican Party than a Trump supporter. That is a good thing. But I'm not completely sold yet. Maybe I need to see it to believe it. And, you know, I think November will be really telling of if it's, you know, total. just wipe out blue wave or if it's closer than we think. You know, obviously last election, they thought there were going to be bigger blowouts and there weren't. And so I don't know. Like I'm trying to be positive, but it's really hard when I've become so cynical over the years. But I think it's a good thing. Well, Speaker 3 (15:29) there's good reason for cynicism. Good reason for cynicism. I agree. I don't know. It's an interesting data point to monitor. Like we can just leave it there rather than getting excited about it. Speaker 3 (15:40) Z-Biotics. I got to tell you about this game-changing product I drank before a night out. It's called Pre-Alcohol by Z-Biotics. Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was engineered by a PhD microbiologist to break down acetaldehyde, an unwanted byproduct of alcohol metabolism. Make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and enjoy your next day activities. Z-Biotics has sold more than 14 million bottles, including to a bunch of our listeners. It's a jazz fest where I had a guy come up to me and talk to me about how he's become a Z-Biotics acolyte. Thanks to the show. I had another big fan. I'm hoping to be seeing her in a couple weeks here. She went on a family vacation. The whole family, they're just like, this is a fun family. It's the kind of family you want to marry into. Where they shipped Speaker 4 (16:29) a Costco-sized package of Z-Biotics Speaker 3 (16:34) pre-alcohol to the beach house so that everybody could. you know, feel their best in the morning when they went for a beach walk. As for me, I've been Z-bioticsing. So I mentioned on the next level, there is the caveat that you aren't supposed to smoke 100 cigarettes also, because that's, you know, that doesn't really have anything to do with the acetaldehyde, but otherwise crushing. Try it for yourself today. And if you're unsatisfied, they'll refund your entire order. No questions asked. Head to zbiotics.com slash the bulwark. Code the bulwark for 15 % off your first order. Zbiotics is a partner of the bulwark. Thanks to Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode. A related thing kind of to me is like tucked into a story about RFK. There's this