Mahomes or Allen (Again???) and a Clippers-Heavy Mailbag With Nick Wright

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Bill Simmons and Nick Wright debate whether Josh Allen is the best quarterback in the NFL despite his lack of Super Bowl appearances and rec

Key takeaways

• Josh Allen's status as the perceived best QB in the league is unprecedented given his lack of Super Bowl wins, All-Pro honors, or MVP awards.
• Allen's playoff success has largely come against weaker opponents due to the expanded NFL playoffs, raising questions about the legitimacy of his 'signature' achievements.

Main topics

• Josh Allen as the top quarterback in the NFL
• Chiefs' potential for the current season

Notable quotes

"His signature win is a round two loss five years ago."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a mix of serious debate on Allen's legacy a

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) you Speaker 2 (0:06) The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I am not on the rewatchables this week because I handed it over to the fantasy guys, Craig, Danny, and Danny, and they did Talladega Nights. Craig is also the producer of the rewatchables. So every once in a while, we let them get in the car and drive it around. Very fun podcast. Go check it out. I am doing four podcasts this week. If you miss me and Sal, we did Guess the Lines. We did our NFL Futures draft. We did a really funny parent corner. Great start. Running it back. We're going to do a mailbag with Nick Wright. And then on Wednesday and Thursday night, I'm going to be live on Netflix right after the game with this podcast after Pat Seahawks. And then on Thursday, Joe House and I are going to be doing our week one NFL, but we're going to do it after Rams Niners. So the Netflix, the postgame show, I think it's going to go a half hour. And after the postgame show, they're going to throw it to us. And House and I will be on live talking about the game. And we're going to do our. our ringer one Oh seven picks and the whole bunch of things. I love football week. This is the best. I have my fantasy draft tomorrow. Uh, the red Sox are on another winning streak. It's just good, good times in sports right now. Uh, hopefully the Patriots will sign. They're all pro cornerback. We'll see how that goes. All right. Take a break, Pearl jam. And then our friend, Nick, right? Mailbag time. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. The NFL is here and it's the most rewarding season ever on FanDuel with the all-time FanDuel Rewards Club. Every eligible bet can earn you points. Win or lose, you still get points. The more points, the bigger the rewards you can unlock. Head to FanDuel.com slash BS to start earning with FanDuel Rewards Club. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Get in a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Speaker 2 (2:26) Nick Wright is here. You see him with my buddy Kevin Wilds on First Things First every day on FS1. He's also the host of the What's Right podcast. Competing podcast, but not really because we're all friends. Wow. Speaker 1 (2:39) Yeah, that's one. That is it's also, you know, also not competing because I think you have the most popular sports podcast in the world. So I don't. So I also don't consider you a competitor, but I appreciate you mentioning I do with my son. There's room for everybody. Speaker 2 (2:53) Everybody has spots. Yeah, there's room for all of us. Yeah, Speaker 1 (2:57) great to see you. Speaker 2 (2:57) You were supposed to come on during the summer to do a mailbag with me and the timing never worked out. You got riled up a couple times. You got mad that I wasn't wearing a seatbelt. I did. I Speaker 1 (3:09) sent you. So I preempted. So here's the thing, because you always talk about getting aggregated. Speaker 2 (3:15) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (3:15) I don't. Um, sometimes the aggregation, you know, is good in regard, like it's almost free publicity, like some of the clippers or whatever. It's like, oh, I didn't put that out there. And sometimes I say certain things that I'm like, we're not going to put this out because I don't want to be publicizing, you know, this shot I'm taking at someone. But I anticipate someone will put it out on my behalf. And then I'm like, hey, I didn't publicize it. I just said it. Speaker 2 (3:42) Right. It's like a no look pass. You're like, Speaker 1 (3:45) exactly. Like, oh, I mean, I said it, but I wasn't like boosting it. But I knew it'd get boosted. But I was worried that there was going to be like a headline. Nick Wright eviscerates Bill Simmons for the seatbelt thing. So I did a front run on it, which is I immediately clipped it and texted it to you. So you knew, even if you never watched it, what I was saying was in good, my heart was in the right place. And that was before I knew you can't see anymore because your contacts. This sounds like Speaker 2 (4:16) Wednesday, Wednesday, I'm going to be able to see, we'll see how I can read. You're going to do a mailbag with me. I'll be able to, we'll see if I can read later when we do this. I'm glad, I'm glad you're worried about me though. I'm worried about you because once again. Once again, you're just all in on this Chiefs season with all these different variables. You wanted to argue about Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes yet again. Speaker 1 (4:39) Well, here's what I want to, it's not even about Josh Allen versus Patrick Mahomes. Okay. It's, I just want to ask you this. Speaker 1 (4:49) in your entire life as a football fan? Because do you think, I think right now, Josh Allen is the majority opinion best quarterback in the league. I don't think it's consensus. I don't think it's unanimous, but I think it was family feud. He would get the most votes. Speaker 2 (5:04) Safest bet to be a really good quarterback game after game. Speaker 1 (5:07) Right. And on most quarterback lists, you did it before the season last year, and I was aghast. But at most lists or pyramids, whatever, he's number one. Has there ever been another time in the history of the NFL where the consensus, if you will, number one quarterback was someone who had. never been to a Super Bowl, had never been first-team All-Pro, was not the reigning MVP, didn't have the most second, most third, most MVPs of any active player, was not coming off the best season of his career, and in fact, in the most recent game he played, was arguably the most damaging loss of his career. Has there ever been another time where a quarterback with that resume, it's like, He's the best. I would argue no. And so it's just baffling to me that people, it feels to me like the cycle with Josh Allen is every year the hype gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then he gets outplayed by the opposing quarterback in a playoff loss. And for about a week, people are like, oh man, Josh could have played better. And then we're right back to, you know what? Josh Allen, if only he had, I don't know, the rushing champ. Well, he had that better defense. Well, he had top five defense four years in a row, the best offensive line in football. And so that part is baffling to me. And I don't know a historical corollary for it. Speaker 2 (6:39) It's really interesting because if you go back, I guess maybe Marino would have been the last one, but he did make a Super Bowl his second year. Speaker 1 (6:46) Snap went to a Super Bowl and was like coming off like he was MVP that year and was the defending. And it's like, oh, my God, the sky's the limit. Yeah. And then then Montana overtook him. I will ask one other Josh Allen question for your listeners and viewers who aren't driving. If you're driving, don't close your eyes. But for everyone else, if I say, hey, what's Josh Allen's signature win in the NFL? Well, think of it. It's the Speaker 2 (7:17) loss. It's the 13-second game. Speaker 1 (7:21) His signature win is a round two loss five years ago. Yeah. His best, his high watermark is a divisional round loss from a half decade ago. And so it's like, there's a lot of guys who are far, much further down the pyramid that we can point to a signature win or two or four. And Josh's best, like. He is the greatest wildcard round quarterback I've ever seen. He is. I mean, the wildcard round, like he, the, the, you know, nobody has benefited more statistically speaking from the NFL adding a seventh playoff team because they're the two seed every year. He plays Mac Jones or Mason Rudolph or Skylar Thompson. This Speaker 2 (8:08) is Speaker 1 (8:08) your Speaker 2 (8:08) guy, LeBron. This is, this helps LeBron the most, all these extra playoff games that he got to play. Speaker 1 (8:14) Okay, well, that's fair. All Speaker 2 (8:15) these first round series that he boned up on, if we're going to do that. I mean, Jordan didn't have as many first round, like, you know, whipping bags that he could have gone through. Okay, Speaker 1 (8:25) except Jordan and LeBron, the playoffs were 16 teams for both of them. I'm just saying, if Speaker 2 (8:30) you Speaker 1 (8:30) compare LeBron Speaker 2 (8:31) versus like Bill Russell. who Bill Russell's playing 11 playoff games a year. Like he's never going to have as many. That part, Speaker 1 (8:39) yes, we're doing, yeah. Or, you know, Babe Ruth versus Barry, or, you know, somebody. Wait, so let me unpack Speaker 2 (8:45) what you said here. Because I think there's two really fun things about this. One is that. And I don't know how I became a Josh Allen on the Josh Allen camp because I don't even think the Bills are going to be good this year. I did pick them to win the Super Bowl last year and they didn't. But this did. We hit all the beats of this with Manning versus Brady in the 2000s. I Speaker 1 (9:04) know. And I was hardcore on Brady. Speaker 2 (9:06) Hardcore. I was like, what are we doing? This is why we have playoff games. But part of the problem was that Manning was really coming up short in those playoff games to the point that it started to feel Carl Malone-ish. And then. In round 05, it started to flip. And then he finally got the Super Bowl. But that's the last time I can remember this happening other than Mike Trout. But that's baseball. We make excuses for baseball because it's like, well, it's 25 players. I think Josh is in this. It's almost like we have that group with the superstars where we do the yeah buts. And it's like, yeah, he's great. But with Josh, it's the other way. It's like a reverse yeah but where it's like. It's not his fault. It's everyone else's fault. Don't blame him. He's doing everything he can, which is the best place to be as an athlete where you get no blame at all. It's literally everyone else's fault. Speaker 1 (9:59) I mean, they had the god dog rushing champ last year, and I got to watch get up being like, can they get him some help? I'm like, James Cook's pretty good. The prior, you know, people are like, well, you know, look at the receiving courts. Like, well, he had a number one with Stefan Diggs and they had a falling out. The defense, he had great regular season defenses that Mahomes eviscerated, so they became bad postseason defenses, I guess. But here's my other, the Brady-Manning thing, that's honestly closer to if Patrick is Brady in this instance, but Patrick also has multiple MVPs. Right, and the steps. Manning would be Lamar. Lamar is the more decorated regular season player between Lamar and Josh. And Lamar does come up short in the postseason. Mike, did anyone Speaker 2 (10:46) ever think Lamar was the best quarterback in the league? I don't think there was a single season where we felt like this is the guy. This is the bar to get there because Mahomes or Brady was always there. Speaker 1 (10:58) So I agree with that. But Lamar has three first-team All-Pros. I know, but it's the Speaker 2 (11:05) regular season stuff, I think, versus playoffs. It's the two different seasons. Speaker 1 (11:09) So that's how I feel. I totally agree with you, which is why I don't understand some of the Josh Allen hagiography. I think I mispronounced that word. Hagiography? Hagiography? You're asking the wrong guy if you mispronounced the word. I'm definitely asking the wrong Speaker 2 (11:25) guy. Speaker 1 (11:25) I'm not helping you Speaker 2 (11:26) here. Speaker 1 (11:27) Because... Here is how, and we don't have to spend a ton of time on this, but I get fired up. Post 13 seconds game. Here is the way Josh's season has ended, the four years. 2022, at home, round two against the Bengals. Tough Speaker 2 (11:46) one. Speaker 1 (11:46) Gets beat up. Like they lose 27 to 10. Okay. Ass kicking. 2023, at home. against a Chiefs team that nobody believed in, that people thought Tua and the Dolphins could beat the previous round. Plays well, but gets outplayed by Patrick. Didn't make the biggest Speaker 2 (12:09) series of the game. Didn't make the place. Speaker 1 (12:11) Got the ball, down three. Had Speaker 2 (12:13) the Speaker 1 (12:13) ball with a chance to Speaker 2 (12:14) win it. Speaker 1 (12:15) Had a ball with a chance to win it and do it. 2024 on the road against Kansas City. Down three with the ball, three and a half minutes left. Everything in front of you. Perfect scenario of go score. Patrick won't get the ball. They got 17 yards and ended up punting or, you know, turnover on downs. Pardon me. Doesn't do it. And then last year, the path to the Super Bowl is beat Bo Nix and then go to New England where you had just won a month prior. By the way, you never should Speaker 2 (12:48) have beaten Jacksonville. You got through them somehow because Jacksonville gacked the game. You're lucky to even be in round two. Speaker 1 (12:54) But he did in the Jacksonville game. He did play great, and I give him credit. And in that Denver game, had the single worst playoff turnover from a star quarterback we've seen in a decade, the one before the half. Two more egregious ones. And then, and this people, another thing people forget, Denver got the ball first in overtime, and Buffalo got a stop. Speaker 2 (13:20) Ball Speaker 1 (13:20) in overtime. Go get a field goal. And you are playing what's left of the Patriots to go to the Super Bowl. And you don't get it done. And you have four turnover playoff game. And your stock's never been higher. That's the part I don't get. Speaker 2 (13:36) Here's the problem. This reminds me of the year after Jordan retired. Speaker 2 (13:41) when we had the lockout season. Do you remember who won the MVP during the lockout season? Speaker 1 (13:46) Carl Malone, his second of two. Carl Malone Speaker 2 (13:49) edged out Alonzo Mourning for MVP, right? And everybody's like, what's going on? Should we even hand out this award and Carl Malone wins it? And it was just basically like this vacancy void until... Duncan wins in the finals. We're like, oh, okay, maybe he's the best guy. Then the next year, Shaq runs the block. It's like, oh, Shaq, maybe he's the best guy. Duncan takes it back. Speaker 1 (14:13) And Speaker 2 (14:13) I just feel like there's a void and we kind of don't know who to put in this best QB because Mahomes got hurt and sucked last year for what he usually is. Speaker 1 (14:22) Correct. So the reason is because Patrick had the worst, you know, the Patrick season last year is so interesting because nobody remembers this. Well, Speaker 2 (14:33) people think he hurt his ACL in September now, now that we're a year removed. They forget there was six and nine when he got hurt. Speaker 1 (14:41) Six and eight when he got hurt in the game. They were six and seven going into the game and they lost that game where he got hurt. But here's the thing that I think you probably, like the Chiefs last year after week eight were the favorites to win the Super Bowl. Patrick was the favorite for league MVP and at week eight, Patrick led the NFL in yards and second in touchdowns. And then I Speaker 2 (15:06) like how you call him Patrick, like your college roommates. I mean, Speaker 1 (15:11) close personal friend, but Speaker 2 (15:12) the Speaker 1 (15:13) people don't, he also is, his mother doesn't like when you call him Pat. I'm calling him Patrick. I'm paying, you know, it's like an Edward Speaker 2 (15:19) Norton thing. Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:20) Oh, I didn't know that, but yeah. Don't Speaker 2 (15:22) call Speaker 1 (15:22) him Ed. Speaker 2 (15:23) He's Edward. Speaker 1 (15:24) Okay. Then week nine up before, until he got hurt, those next six games. Were the worst stretch of his entire career. He played terribly. And all the talking heads like Speaker 2 (15:37) Nick Wright making excuses for him left and right. Speaker 1 (15:40) Well, you know, it's hard to go to three straight Super Bowls. Andy Reid's fault. Where are the skill guys? I didn't blame Andy Reid. Kelsey looked Speaker 2 (15:46) slow. The running game. They have Speaker 1 (15:48) the Speaker 2 (15:48) worst running backs in the league. They missed a couple O-line picks. I did this all with Brady a couple times in the 2010s. Speaker 1 (15:55) It's fair to say that I... Both of these things are true. They had an offensive line ravaged by injury. The receiving core was disastrous. They were absolutely exhausted from the three straight trips to the Super Bowl. It's the Warriors. It's the Speaker 2 (16:14) 2015-19 Warriors where you're playing all these extra games. They finally catch up to you. And your coach probably should be sent out to pasture at this point. What's Speaker 1 (16:23) the Speaker 2 (16:23) other issue? Speaker 1 (16:24) And by the way, just because you were talking, you already invoked him once. You're talking about, yeah, those four straight finals really, or five straight finals really wore down the Warriors. Imagine how great you'd have to be to go to eight straight and just be at your best at the end of every season. But that's neither here nor there. Is that LeBron? Yeah, LeBron just went to eight straight. Against Speaker 2 (16:44) the Leastern Conference? Speaker 1 (16:46) I rooted for Speaker 2 (16:48) some of the teams they played in round three. They were terrible. Speaker 1 (16:52) Let's Speaker 2 (16:52) get Jake Crowder guarding him in a conference finals. Speaker 1 (16:55) I mean, my God, you love those Celtics team, the young Celtics. My God, we Speaker 2 (17:00) almost beat them with Terry Rozier and Jason Tatum. And yeah, Marcus Morris. I still don't know what happened. Speaker 1 (17:07) And then LeBron said to George Hill and Timothy Mozgov. Come on, come, come with me. I got you. Get on my back. But no. So listen. So it is, the void is, the answer to the best quarterback alive question should just be Patrick because he has so many more accomplishments than these other guys. But because he played so poorly the final two months of last year and he's coming off the ACL, it feels up in the air. I want to see how it moves, Speaker 2 (17:37) don't you? Don't you want to see what happens with five minutes left in the fourth quarter and 38 when he's got to scramble for a first down? Speaker 1 (17:43) All of it is fascinating. Like the, what, what, where he... what he looks like post-injury, because this is something we talked about last year. Speaker 2 (17:52) Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:52) That the corollaries of the 2007 Patriots were a game away from being the greatest team of all time winning their fourth championship. They were Speaker 2 (18:06) two plus minutes away. They had the lead. Speaker 1 (18:09) So plays away. But they walked into that game knowing if we win it, Speaker 2 (18:15) Yeah. We Speaker 1 (18:15) are the greatest team of all time. And it's their fourth ring. They lost. And then the next year, Brady got his knee blown out. Speaker 2 (18:22) Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:22) The 2024 chiefs were a game away from being the greatest team ever. They winning three Superbowls in a row. They lose it. They lost very differently than you guys. The next year, the quarterback gets his knee blown out. It's, it's scary. What's scary as a chiefs fan is that those following two seasons. are the kind of forgotten part of the Pats dynasty. 09, you guys were 10 and six and mediocre. And 2010, you were awesome, but then lost to Mark Sanchez in your first playoff game. Got our asses kicked. We got our asses Speaker 2 (18:58) kicked in two straight playoff games. Speaker 1 (19:00) Yeah, correct. Speaker 2 (19:01) I think those two seasons are really instructive for this Mahomes thing. And I've talked about this on the pod before because you're basically, you're at the end of whatever era that was. And what was great about what Brady and Belichick did was they figured out how to create the second era, which was around the tight ends and Belichick actually hitting some draft picks on the defense. But Brady was so good. They were always 10 and 6, 12 and 4, whatever it was. They always had a top five offense, no matter what was going on. And they were able to patch it together until the talent showed up. And it feels like you're in this right now. I'm... I wanted the whole summer, I was ready to go under on the Chiefs. This is one of the reasons I want to have you on because we haven't really talked about Mahomes on this podcast that much. No. I wanted to go under on them. I felt like this was a transition year. I didn't know what I was getting out of Reid. You missed a couple drafts. You had the Rice thing. I don't know what you're getting out of him this year. I don't know if Worthy's good. I don't know if Kelsey's going to be even remotely the same anymore, et cetera, et cetera. And when it came, like we did the futures draft. last night, me and Sal. And I was going to do these state Fando has these bets like this team will win more than that team. And I had two chiefs bets and I pulled them because I was like, you know what? I just I could just see the chiefs somehow go on 11 and 610 and seven anyway. To me, it's just a stay away. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't even really have a strong opinion on it anymore. Speaker 1 (20:28) So I listen. What if you're a chiefs fan? The the hope for this season is the comp is 2022. post-trading Tyree. So 2022, they were coming off the indefensible playoff loss to Cincinnati when they just blew it in the second half of that game. You know what Speaker 2 (20:49) happened Speaker 1 (20:49) in that game? What, that Patrick was concussed? Speaker 2 (20:52) Patrick got concussed. That's what happened. Speaker 1 (20:56) I mean, let me listen. I'm not as comfortable saying that as you. What I will say is, I don't know why it's a bad Speaker 2 (21:03) thing to say it, though. There was a clear before and after in that game when he got hit in the head and he was never the same and made some of the most inexplicable decisions he's made in his career all over the span of an hour and a half and blew the game. Speaker 1 (21:17) We've never seen a half like that before. He definitely was hurt or compromised or Speaker 2 (21:23) something. Something was wrong. Speaker 1 (21:25) And so, you know, the year before they got blown out in the Super Bowl, then they lose to Cincinnati, then they trade Tyreek Hill. And people were like, oh, okay. You know, Chiefs, good for you. You won the one Super Bowl. You're now in a different time. They went all in on this young defense and a wide receiver core where every single guy that was in that wide receiving core is out of the league now, except for Sky Moore, who's a punt returner. That's what Speaker 2 (21:50) the Patriots had the same thing, where you go back and look at some of the receivers. Like, where are they? They're gone. Speaker 1 (21:55) And that young defense got better and better as the year went on. Patrick. was unreal that year throwing to nobodies, but with a good offensive line and they turned it around like that. They spent three picks in the top 40 on guys to defensively impact the passer. The top corner in football, Peter Woods, the D tackle, R. Mason Thomas, the D end. They are rolling the dice that Josh Simmons is going to be healthy and available for the majority of the season. They're reporting this morning that he might miss week one. is terrifying for the Chiefs. Oh, no. Speaker 2 (22:31) I didn't like you anyway in that game. Speaker 1 (22:34) And so potentially not having him, your left tackle, for week one against Denver, Patrick's first game back, is concerning. But what the Chiefs, rightly or wrongly, what they believe is, if Patrick has a solid offensive line and the defense can get off the field on third down, the rest of it, he'll take care of the rest of it with, and this is the part that I think has been overlooked, in how... what's happened to Patrick's numbers the last couple of years. Teams, certainly last year and a little bit the year before, it did not matter what formation Kansas City was in. Teams were like, run it all you want. You guys can't hurt us running the ball. We are just playing the pass. Speaker 2 (23:16) And Speaker 1 (23:17) that's why I think the Kenneth Walker addition changes things, not because Kenneth Walker is a special player, but because if you just do... six men in the box like teams have been doing against Kansas City for two years, they'll be able to punish you there. And does that clean things up for Patrick a bit? So it's like having a Speaker 2 (23:35) center where you get a really good three-point shooter to give them a little more space and room to operate. Speaker 1 (23:43) But they are also, here's where they're also similar to your Pats. They're not, you know, big spenders. They don't do void years. Well, we're the cheapest. We're the Bengals without the Speaker 2 (23:54) PR. You Speaker 1 (23:54) guys won't even pay Christian Gonzalez. When his Speaker 2 (23:56) agent is the same age as Witherspoon who got paid six weeks ago. Speaker 1 (24:01) What are we doing? It's unbelievable that you guys won't pay Christian Gonzalez. He's so Speaker 2 (24:07) cheap. Speaker 1 (24:08) And nobody Speaker 2 (24:08) wants to talk about it because we've won so many Super Bowls and he kept the Patriots in New England. Right? We owe him a lot. But I don't understand why he's this cheap with this stuff. And we're compared to how the Eagles are always like pushing the envelope, spending, spending, spending, and looking for every nook and cranny. And the Pats are the opposite. He's just pocketing money. Speaker 1 (24:29) The Gonzalez deal should have been the easiest deal in the history of sports. I Speaker 2 (24:34) don't even know what the rationale is. They're like, they're so far apart. It's like every guy would kill to have Gonzalez. Speaker 1 (24:40) Every team would kill to have him. And same draft, same position, same agent. It's like, okay, here's Weatherspoon's deal. We're going to add 2%, so he's now the highest, and it's done. The terms, whatever the agent agreed to for Weatherspoon, would it be agreeable for Gonzalez? I'm worried they're going Speaker 2 (24:59) to trade him. Speaker 1 (25:00) That would Speaker 2 (25:01) be... I'm not kidding. Honestly, I'm prepared for anything with this because clearly they didn't want to get the deal done, and I don't know what to expect. Who the F knows? Speaker 1 (25:12) So I don't... So can we... Before we do mailbag, can I ask you a Pat's question? Speaker 2 (25:17) Well, I had one more Chiefs thing for you. Oh, Speaker 1 (25:19) sure. Yeah, go. I Speaker 2 (25:21) just think the Kelsey thing is a huge part of this. Just the fact that he got old and he's had a full NFL career and he's going to the Hall of Fame as one of the best tight ends of all time. Speaker 1 (25:30) The best, but that's okay. Go ahead. Well, he's definitely not because Speaker 2 (25:33) he was a C-plus blocker, C-minus. Speaker 1 (25:36) I like blocking Speaker 2 (25:38) with my tight ends. I understand. Gronk is the most talented, best tight end of all time. Gronk is the best ever. No, he just is, though. Gronk is the best ever. Speaker