Judge Esther Salas: This Country Has Given Us Too Much for Us to Abandon It

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Federal District Judge Esther Salas joins Nicolle Wallace to discuss her profound personal tragedy—the July 2020 murder of her son Danny and severe injury of her husband Mark—and how she channeled

Key takeaways

• Federal District Judge Esther Salas lost her son Danny and nearly lost husband Mark on July 19, 2020, when a former plaintiff in her court opened fire at their home.
• Judges across party lines have faced coordinated harassment campaigns, including anonymous pizza deliveries sent to courthouses as veiled threats.

Main topics

• Political violence against public servants
• Grief, forgiveness, and personal healing

Notable quotes

"Norms have been broken, rules have been shattered... just like we've done in the past, we're gonna pick up the pieces."

Conclusion

Salas's narrative offers a powerful blueprint for navigating personal tragedy while fiercely

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Hey everyone, it's Rachel Maddow here to tell you about the MSNOW membership. You can connect directly with your favorite hosts and other MSNOW fans. You can stream live TV and much more. Visit ms.now slash membership to join. Speaker 4 (0:15) If I didn't believe that in this country, there is the opportunity for your dreams to come true, I don't know. I don't know if I'd still be sitting here, right? The worst thing in the world happened to me on July 19, 2020, and happened to Mark. And yet we are still smiling and loving each other and loving life and believing in this country and fighting for this country. Because we love this country. Speaker 2 (0:49) Hi there, everyone. This one is deeply personal. There is no one on this planet from whom I derive more personal strength or inspiration or perspective than this week's guest. She's a beacon of light and love in the fight for our democracy and a courageous voice warning about the very real dangers of violent rhetoric against any public servant. At a time when the courts have been a constant, reliable bulwark against Donald Trump's worst autocratic impulses, from press freedoms and the fight for access to covering the White House to 25 straight defeats in court against Trump's efforts to seize voter data, judge after judge appointed by various presidents of both political parties have told Donald Trump no when he goes too far. And because judges have dared to do their jobs to uphold the rule of law in our country, they've paid a price. They've been on the receiving end of harsh and violent, unprecedented, violent rhetoric and threats. One judge got nearly 700 calls to his chambers after hearing an immigration case. Judges have received hundreds of anonymous pizza deliveries. The goal of those deliveries to send a very clear message. We know where you... and your families and your kids live. My guest this week knows the dangers of this rhetoric and of political violence firsthand. Federal District Judge Esther Salas lost her beloved son, Danny, when a man, a plaintiff who had been in her court years before, shot him and her husband in their home. In the face of unfathomable loss and tragedy, Judge Salas has made it her mission to push back against the scourge of political violence, a mission that is all the more urgent given the looming midterms and the possibility that judges will once again have to uphold our democracy. So this is the best people. And this is my dear friend, Danny's mom, Judge Esther Salas. I've got something in my eye already. I'm not crying. I Speaker 4 (2:51) suspect, I suspect you and I will definitely have a range of emotions today. How do you do it? You know, it's a lot of work. I tell everyone I'm unapologetic about how long it takes for me to get centered and grounded every single day. And I do the work. And I guess, like I studied for law, you know, in law school and the bar and coming back out of this valley has been work. But we invest so much. of our lives on things that really don't matter. You know, when we invest our money, we're preoccupied with that. But investing in yourself, I don't think we take it as seriously as we do when we invest our money. And so I learned that for me to be okay, Nicole, I have to work on me because I can't give what I don't have. And if I don't have peace and love inside, I'm not going to be able to be Danny's mom the way he wants me to be his mom, you know? So it takes every day. I mean, it's wherever I am. It's the quiet of my time with my source, with Danny, with God, and just really putting my life in proper perspective and in the proper priorities. Speaker 2 (4:12) I mean, that's what you are for me. And as you know, you were my first call after an election that I thought I would have a really hard time covering, in part because I was afraid. I was afraid for the country, but I was afraid for journalists, for people that do what I do. And I was afraid of the amount of violent rhetoric that's out there. And I wouldn't say I'm less afraid, but I think that you, I mean, you just have a way of centering the whole thing around one, the perspective. Speaker 2 (4:41) Two, that love and light aren't a gift or it's not about letting the other people off the hook. It's about saving yourself. Speaker 4 (4:49) Yeah, absolutely. Like I knew when Danny was murdered and Mark was, there were two different ambulances. The first ambulance took Danny right away because it could barely find his pulse. And then they took Mark. And I was waiting in a waiting room, waiting for them to tell me whether I was planning two funerals or one. And I literally screamed that because I had a nurse with me who was like, you know, she was doing her job. Speaker 4 (5:18) If I could see her, I would say, you know, I really just wanted you to hold me and tell me it was going to be all right, but I knew she couldn't do that, right? It was just the worst moment of my life. And when the doctors came in, Nicole, I knew what they were coming to tell me. I knew by their looks on their faces. And I tell people, like, I didn't sit, I fell into my chair. And the doctor bent down. I feel sorry. I'd like to see him too. And he tells me and I just start screaming, no. And I grab his scrubs and I'm shaking him, you know. And I'll tell you, the light went out inside of me. And I tell, I'm very honest about it. If there was a gun or a knife in the room, I would have used it. If there was a ledge or a hole, I would have jumped. You know, I just totally lost that light force in me. That was the 19th of July of 2020. And I woke up on the 22nd of July when a doctor came in to tell me that my husband was in rough shape. And that was the day that I say I felt that gentle nudge. From Danny? From above. And I remember like picking myself up in my hospital bed because I was admitted. I had fainted and I was in bad shape. And I kind of just asked a friend who was standing by the bed, can you give me a pad of paper and a pen? And I looked at the doctor and I said, and your name is? Speaker 4 (6:56) And that was the day I woke up. And I started climbing out of the valet since they told me my baby boy didn't make it. And I knew there was more to do. I knew I had to be there for Mark. And so I started just writing and writing like, you know, whatever doctor was saying. And then we talk about Mama Bear. She showed up, you know, and she was like, someone's got to do something, right? And that's when I started saying, I got an issue. I wanted to do a press conference, you know, and the marshals were like, no, we're not going to do that. We don't know who else is out there. And so we ended up shooting that YouTube video. Speaker 3 (7:41) Daniel and I went downstairs Speaker 4 (7:42) to the basement and we were chatting as we always do. And Daniel said, Mom, let's keep talking. Speaker 4 (7:52) I love talking to you, mom. Speaker 4 (7:55) And it was at that exact Speaker 3 (7:57) moment that the doorbell rang. Speaker 4 (8:00) So I filmed that video. I went to ICU to check on Mark and I had to go to a mausoleum and temporarily lay my son to rest. Those are the moments where you say that the strength that we can derive in the most horrific moments comes from. a bigger source. And so when I tell you that all of the things that are happening are horrible, we have the power to change the direction of our own lives and the course of this country. I truly believe that. Speaker 2 (8:41) When you think about... What your family went through. And I always think about this in what you've told me about what was happening right before. And that Danny just wanted to talk to you and that he always talked to you. Always. Still does. I think about him and I think about you every day. Speaker 2 (9:05) How are we at a moment where everyone can't realize that in a second your life changed and no one wants that for anybody? Speaker 4 (9:13) Yeah. Yeah, I know. You know, I think that... Mark and I definitely can attest to the dangers of the, you know, rhetoric, right? The irresponsible, inflammatory rhetoric. And so I spend a lot of time, you know, wondering how it is that we can't understand that. But I'm not going to spend an inordinate of times. Thinking about the things that I can't necessarily control, but what I can control is the way I'm going to react and how am I going to treat the people I come in contact with? And what am I going to do to lift a moment up? I love someone I respect so much said that, you know, the best life that we can live is understanding that the moment that's unfolding in front of us, that we have the power to lift it up. Yeah, to make it better. To make Speaker 3 (10:07) it Speaker 4 (10:07) better in whatever way we can, right? And that means maybe just a smile to someone who you know needs it. Yeah. Right? Or a call just because to someone that you know might be having a hard time. To the bigger things that I think Mark and I have decided that we devote our lives to, which is, you know, trying to... to do our small part in ensuring that our democracy is sound. And that means not shying away from the tough topics, which we are confronted with as a nation right now. And that is that we are under attack. The judiciary is under attack, and it starts with the president on down. And for me, as Danny's mom, I cannot pretend that this isn't happening. This is happening. You know, when somebody says to me, you know, we've always had tension between the co-equal branches of government. True. It's as old as a republic. I agree. When somebody says historically, we can point to moments in time that have been incredibly challenging for this country. True. I agree. But tell me when the last time a sitting president has called judges. monsters who hate America, who have called us in an open setting criminals. He was publicly addressing on national television and called judges criminals, rogue judges criminals. And let's