The Secrets of Supercommunicators

The Art of Manliness - The Art of Manliness

In this episode of The Art of Manliness, host Brett McKay interviews Charles Duhigg about his book 'Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of

Key takeaways

• Effective communication requires matching the type of conversation (practical, emotional, or social) to ensure mutual understanding.
• Super communicators use 'deep questions'—simple but meaningful inquiries about values, beliefs, and experiences—to invite others to share authentically.

Main topics

• The matching principle in conversation
• Types of conversations: practical, emotional, and social

Notable quotes

"Every single discussion is made up of multiple different kinds of conversations. And in general, those conversations fall into one of three buckets."

Conclusion

By mastering the matching principle and using deep questions to foster reciprocal

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) So I've got a few friends who run businesses where they have to hire a lot, and one thing they all say is hiring is one of the hardest parts. Not just finding someone, but finding the right person. Because when you get the wrong hire, it creates more problems than it solves. And when you need the right person fast, this is a job for sponsored jobs with Indeed. What I like about Indeed sponsored jobs is that it helps you reach candidates who actually match what you're looking for. And people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. And the minute I've been talking to you, Companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Sponsored jobs boost your post and search results so you can connect with candidates who can actually move your business forward and you only pay for results. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. 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And every week, there are more than 100 nutrient-dense menu items to choose from so you don't get bored eating the same thing over and over. I use Factor. I think you'll like it too. Let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com slash manliness50off and use code manliness50off to get 50 % off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. Again, that's factormeals.com slash manliness50off. That's spelled M-A-N-L-I-N-E-S-S. 50OFF, and then use code MANLINESS50OFF to get that great deal. FactoryMills.com slash MANLINESS50OFF, Speaker 2 (2:20) code MANLINESS50OFF. See website for more details. Speaker 1 (2:23) Hey, this is Brett. We're taking a break for new episodes this week, so we're going to rebroadcast episode number 968, The Secrets of Super Communicators with Charles Duhigg. Hope you enjoy it. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. And while I've got you, if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take the time to review the podcast on the podcast player that you use. It really helps out a lot. Also, let a friend or family member know about the show. Word of mouth is the primary way that we grow. I'll see you next week. Speaker 1 (2:55) Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Have you ever known one of those people who seem to be able to connect with anyone? The kind of person who had the ability to make others feel understood and smoothly navigate even the trickiest of conversations? Charles Duhid calls these folks super communicators and he's the author of a new book by the same name. Today on the show, Charles explains that what underlies super communicator skill and connection is something called the matching principle. and he unpacks how it works and how you can put it to use in your own conversations. We discuss several techniques for how to figure out what kind of conversation you're having so you can align your language and energy with the other person. And because emotional conversations can be particularly difficult, we dig into tactics for successfully navigating them, even when they contain a high degree of conflict. We also get into how to carry the skills of connection into your digital conversations. After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash super communicator. Speaker 1 (4:01) All right, Charles Duhigg, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me on. So last time we had you on was back in 2016 to talk about your book, Smarter, Faster, Better. It's all about the secrets of being more productive in life and business. We've also had you on to talk about the power of habit and the habit loop. You got a new book out though called Super Communicator. How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. I mean, this is all about how to have better, more meaningful conversations. What led you to take a deep dive into this topic? Speaker 2 (4:30) Well, when I wrote The Power of Habit in Smarter, Faster, Better, it's very much focused on the self. And it's about how we succeed as individuals. What do we need to do to be successful? But the thing I realized is that a huge amount of our happiness and our productivity and our success it depends on other people, right? Like we work in teams, we have partners or spouses and kids and parents. And so I realized that at the core of dealing with other people, coordinating with other people is communication. It's conversations, right? And then when I started doing the research, I learned that we're living through this golden age of understanding communication, actually for the first time in ways we never have before because of advances in neural imaging and data collection. And I just thought it was fascinating. And more importantly, I thought it could help a lot of people, including myself. Speaker 1 (5:25) Was there a moment you had in your own personal life where you realized, boy, I really need to get better at talking because I'm not good at it? Speaker 2 (5:31) Oh, yeah. There was more than one moment, right? I think we've all had that experience. For me, it was I fell into this pattern with my wife where I would come home after a long and hard day and I would start complaining to her like my boss is a jerk or my coworkers don't appreciate me. And she very rationally would say, oh, here's a solution. Why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better? But instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get even more upset. And I'd be like, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be outraged on my behalf. And then she would get upset because I was reacting very poorly to this advice she had given. And so I started going to these researchers and asking them, why does this happen? Because it's not just me, right? This is a pretty common pattern. And they said, well, actually, here's what we've learned. And this is one of the biggest insights from the last decade is we tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing, right? We're talking about my day or we're talking about, you know, kids' grades or the pets. But actually, every single discussion is made up of multiple different kinds of conversations. And in general, those conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's practical discussions, like where we're solving problems or making plans. Then there's emotional conversations, where I want to tell you how I feel, and I don't want you to solve my problem. I want you to empathize, and I want you to listen. And then there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and to society. And they said, the thing that we figured out is if people are having different kinds of conversations at the same moment, then they won't really hear each other. They won't really connect with each other. And so the key is what's become known as the matching principle within psychology, that in order to communicate with someone, we need to be having the same kind of conversation at the same time. that actually causes our brains to align. Speaker 1 (7:26) Okay. There's a lot to unpack here. And I hope we can do that throughout this conversation. And to get into this idea of the matching principle, you start out the book talking about this guy named Felix Segala, who worked for the FBI's crisis negotiation team. He's a master communicator, but from the outside. He looks pretty unremarkable. He just looks like a middle-aged dude, mustache, maybe wears a sweater vest. I don't know. And so you'd see like, how is this guy? People just relate to him. They connect with him. He doesn't look charismatic. And so a team of researchers went in to study Felix to figure out what made him so good at communicating. What did these researchers learn about communication from Felix? So Felix is Speaker 2 (8:07) a really interesting test case because you're exactly right. If you met him, he would not stand out. for you at all until he opened his mouth. And what's really, really interesting is that he is very typical of super communicators. Super communicators are not necessarily the most charismatic people. They are not extroverts. Who they are, they're people who think just a little bit, like half an inch deeper about how to have conversations. And as a result, they can connect with almost anyone. And the thing is, it's just a set of skills anyone can learn. Any of us can become super communicators. And so in Felix's case, what happened was these researchers sat down with him. And they were like, look, tell us what you do that's so special. Why did so many people tell us that we had to be in touch with you? And he said, well, let me demonstrate. It might be better. And he just starts asking them questions like, you know, tell me about like what's going on in your life. Now, what's interesting is that the questions he's asking are a special kind of questions, but they don't appear that special. They're what's known as deep questions. And a deep question asks us about our values or beliefs or experiences. But it doesn't appear to be that deep at first. It doesn't seem really probing or intrusive. It doesn't force someone to reveal something. But it's as easy like if you bump into someone and you ask them, like, what do you do for a living? And they say, I'm a lawyer. A deep question would be to say like, oh, how did you decide to go to law school? Or what do you love about practicing the law? Both those questions are pretty easy to ask. But what they do is they ask the other person, provide an opportunity for the other person. to tell us about their experiences, why they went to law school, to tell us about their beliefs, what it is about justice and the law that gets them excited every day. And when they share that with us, then it provides an opportunity for us to engage in what's known as reciprocal authenticity, where we can share something about ourselves and we'll feel closer to each other. And that's exactly what Felix would do. He would ask these questions that were deep questions that didn't appear that deep. And then somebody would bring up something meaningful. You know, they became a researcher because their parents were researchers or the thing that they love about teaching is to see how students develop. And then he would share something about himself. He'd say, oh, that's really, really interesting. Because what I hear you saying is that you love to help other people. And actually, that's why I joined the FBI, because I love to help people too. And I found this way, right? What's happening there is that almost invisibly, Felix is inviting people to bring their full self to the conversation. He's proving to them that he's listening to them. He's sharing his own life with them. As a result, they feel connected. They believe that he wants to connect with them. That's the most important thing that super communicators do. They prove to us they Speaker 1 (10:49) want to connect. So these questions that he asks, is this what allows Felix to match up so he's able to sync up with the person he's talking to? So they're on the same page and the person feels like they're communicating? Speaker 2 (11:03) That's exactly right. So these deep questions. And I will say, so people who are consistent super communicators, because we're all super communicators at one time or another, but people who can do it all the time on demand, they tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And some of those questions are like throwaway questions. They're like, oh, what'd you think of that? Or, oh, what'd you say next? We don't even register them as questions, but they invite us into the conversation. But then about half of them are these deep questions. And the reason why those questions are so powerful is exactly what you just said, is that it allows you to say something meaningful, like something that's true and authentic about yourself. And it allows me as the listener to engage in reciprocal authenticity. Without it seeming like I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you or I asked where you went on vacation just because I really want to talk about where I went on vacation. They're really powerful. Speaker 1 (11:54) So the matching principle is figure out what kind of conversation you're having and then match the other person or invite them to match you. And by asking deep questions, Felix was able to create this matching. And we're going to talk more about how to create this kind of alignment throughout our conversation today. But besides asking deep questions, how else can you tell what kind of conversation someone wants to have? Well, you just listen to what they're saying, Speaker 2 (12:22) right? Because they're going to tell you. I mean, they might not say, I want to have an emotional conversation. But if they bring up things like feelings, if they mention something that feels vulnerable to you or feels kind of emotionally authentic, then they're having an emotional conversation. Right? The same way that when I get home and I talk about, you know, my boss is a jerk and he doesn't appreciate me. It's not really about what my boss did. It's about how I feel about it. And that's obvious, right? Just from listening. On the other hand, if I'm talking to my wife and I say like, look, let's figure out the budget for our vacation next year because I really want to like, you know, go someplace exciting, but I don't want it to be too expensive. Well, that's clear that that's a much more practical frame of mind, right? It's not hard to figure out what kind of conversation is happening. It's just a matter of listening for it and understanding that there's these different kinds of conversations. Speaker 1 (13:15) Another way you suggest creating alignment is to share your goals for the conversation and then ask others what their goals are. So instead of being opaque and each person has to decipher what kind of conversation is going on and what it's