Lucky Girl: Mental Health, Brain Cancer and The Pit of Despair with Dayna Kathan

Thanks For Asking

Host Nora McInerney sits down with Dayna Kathan to discuss the profound intersections of grief, mental health, and family history. Both wome

Key takeaways

• Both Nora McInary and Dayna Kathan have lost significant people in their lives to glioblastoma.
• Dayna Kathan discusses her ongoing struggles with mental health, including OCD, depression, and suicidal ideation.

Main topics

• Glioblastoma and brain cancer
• Mental health and depression

Notable quotes

Everything, even despair, is enough to be temporary.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a powerful reminder that while trauma can be cyc

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:05) Hi. How you there? Hi. Hi. Speaker 2 (0:08) Hey, Speaker 1 (0:08) Nora. I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Thanks for Asking, a call-in show about what matters to you. Speaker 1 (0:24) Sometimes I meet what I call a sister in sadness. This is not a woman who seems sad. We very rarely meet while weeping. This is a woman who has survived something, who holds in herself some kind of wisdom that you can only get from learning things the hard way. Dana Kathan is one of those people. Besides surviving reality TV as a cast member on Vanderpump Rules, which is a whole other topic that we will not even really touch on in this conversation, Dana lost her mother to the same cancer that killed my husband, Aaron, glioblastoma. She's also an open book about her struggles with mental health, including her depression and suicidal ideations, which she talks about, along with pop culture and politics and everything in between, on her podcast, Disrespectfully, which she co-hosts with Katie Maloney, another Vanderpump alum. Vanderpump alum is hard to say. Another former Vanderpump Rules cast member. In many spaces, saying that you are depressed or have been suicidal is a real conversation killer. Many people would much prefer you focus on something else, like Vanderpump Rules. And yes, I could talk about Vanderpump Rules and the Bravoverse for years and never get sick of it, but here we are people who can hold many things at once, and we make space at the podcast table for all parts of ourselves and others. This past summer when I was in LA, I got to meet up with Zaina for a conversation that lasted several hours and meandered through all of these topics. You actually heard one part of it around Father's Day when she discussed being estranged from her father. But this part of the conversation about grief and mental health and yes, suicidal ideation feels so relevant to the moment because life is really hard for everyone all the time. But I think especially right now. And we are releasing this episode in September, which is Suicide Awareness Month, because someone out there needs to hear that they are not alone, that no feeling is forever, and that everything, even despair, is temporary. Speaker 1 (2:31) I don't think that people understand that dying of cancer, especially brain cancer, is gruesome and violent. I think that they think that it is a good death and it was one of the most horrifying. It's the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. What could be more horrifying than that? I mean, I'm sure I watch a lot of horror films, so I'm sure I could Speaker 2 (2:48) get Speaker 1 (2:48) creative with it. We could go like Speaker 2 (2:50) real saw route. But other than having a saw trap, I would assume that it would be the worst. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that GBM in the medical community is referred to as the monster. Have you ever heard that? Or maybe that was just a Seattle thing that they told us. It'd be fun. Give it a little fun, whimsical, you know, spin. But yeah, I think if there is a disease called the monster, I mean, I'm curious what, I also think it's probably proximity to where the tumor is in the brain. Where was your husband's tumor? It was named Aaron. Yeah. Aaron. Okay. Aaron. Where was Aaron? My mom's was there too. Yeah. And I think it was on the right front. Right. Was it the front? Right. Yeah. Hers was the front. Speaker 1 (3:22) Right. So did Speaker 2 (3:23) it Speaker 1 (3:23) affect his speech? His not at first, you know, and they, They do that thing. And by the way, as soon as we found out, well, he had a seizure. And I was like, no big deal. Right. They bring him to the hospital. I was like, can we go? It's Halloween. And like, we just moved in together. So we have to like pass out candy. Right. And you had a baby, right? Not yet. No. No, I married him afterwards. I proposed to him that night. Oh, okay. Yeah. We'd been dating for a year. I'd secretly moved in. I was like, my Catholic family cannot know this. Doesn't matter. It's none of their beeswax. But like we're playing house. He has a seizure at work. I go to the hospital. I'm like, OK, but like he's fine now. So could we go? Because like how serious can this be? And then they did, you know, an MRI. And they're like, well, there's something in his head. And I was like, right. But like. You know, like it could be anything. Yeah. Like just, just oblivious. He leaves his keys everywhere. Speaker 2 (4:15) Maybe he stuck something in there and we just don't know. I don't know. We Speaker 1 (4:18) don't know. We don't know. We don't know. And you're jumping to like a lot of conclusions. And again, it's Halloween and I forgot to turn off the porch light. So there could be kids looking for candy right now. Right. And we got to go. We got to go. But it was a brain tumor. And even then I was like, well, it's not cancer until we know it's cancer. And even when they said it was cancer. I thought, well, there's got to be four stage four. There's got to be 10 stages to cancer. Like this can't be the worst one. Speaker 2 (4:46) It's the worst. And actually it's different, I believe, than other types is, you know, if it's a breast cancer or testicular cancer, where if you catch it early, it can be, there's possibly a better outcome. graded cancer in terms of brain cancer. We both had someone we love die of glioblastoma, multiform, both were grade four. It was what it was the day that we had it. So my interaction with that was actually different. I knew immediately she was going to die. And I, we had had three months prior, I think it was called a pond stem glioma, a 17 year old boy that we knew that I had babysat for years died of a brain tumor in his brainstem. Yeah. So when they said glioma, when they like pulled us into the little room right after surgery, they obviously can't confirm until a week we have pathology. But he said, I recognize the word glioma. And I like grabbed my dad and I was like, that's what Daniel just died of. And I don't know, I, me and my mom shared a birthday. We were very in tune. We were also what I've learned after extensive therapy, very codependent. Yeah. Not to say that she, you know, didn't make mistakes with that, but like. Our love was so big and so intertwined. And literally my biggest fear was her dying. And I've, I've, I mean, I've been mentally ill since I was a child. It wasn't, didn't develop because of her. It definitely was amplified, but I, my anxiety disorder went out of control. Like I used to, when I was little, get out of bed and check my mom's breathing. Cause I was like scared something would happen to her. Speaker 1 (6:12) And then it Speaker 2 (6:12) did, and it was the worst possible thing that it could have ever been. And now we're here talking, which is awesome, though. So I've actually, you've been with me for a really long time. Speaker 1 (6:19) And you've been with me for a really long time. Have I? Yes. I mean, I'm Speaker 2 (6:22) assuming Vanderpump days. Yes. Oh, hi. How are you, Nora McInerney? I'm looking at you. You're one of my heroes, by the way. I love your podcasting voice. Oh, thank you. You comforted me through many of bad spells. But I obviously, you know, hee-hee, ha-ha, mom dies, terrible brain tumor, best best friend, lose dad in terms of emotion, from an emotional perspective. So I was basically parentless at 22 and my friend was like, hey, you don't seem to be doing great. Have you ever heard of this podcast called Terrible Things for Asking? Speaker 1 (6:49) It's so funny. Speaker 2 (6:50) And I just felt so seen by all the different people you've interviewed and you're a really good storyteller. So I just want you to know that. And so if Ralph is listening, is it Ralph? Oh yeah, Speaker 1 (7:00) Ralph's listening. Hey Speaker 2 (7:00) Ralph, if you're listening, your mom's really cool. I like her a lot. Be nice to her. Okay. I'm sure you're well adjusted and awesome though because she is too. Speaker 1 (7:09) Yeah, he does okay. And also, yeah, Ralph's a huge fan. So this is going to go, it's going to go really well. No, I love that. It's going to go really far. I Speaker 2 (7:16) love Speaker 1 (7:16) that. At least I Speaker 2 (7:17) love a warm entrance. It's like when I used to do standup comedy, I always loved a warm room. So at least Ralph is in the metaphorical room with us. He Speaker 1 (7:23) knows. Okay. He knows. He knows. He's got the context. But how would you, how do you describe yourself? Like when people are like, oh, Dana Kathan is. Speaker 2 (7:31) Dana Kathan is a work in progress. Speaker 2 (7:34) Dana Kathan is someone that values growth and is hyper self-aware to the point that it sometimes crushes her at night when she's trying to sleep and cannot. She is someone that loves really hard and loves the people around her, her chosen family, her sister and her sister's children. She's also a goddamn mess from time to time. And right now you're meeting me in a depressive episode. Actually, I'm having a I'm having a hard time right now. Speaker 1 (8:03) Yeah, and me too. Isn't that great? Yeah, you texted me and I was like, oh, same. It was up to my eyeballs probably a few weeks ago, but now I'm like this. Face above water, not head. But I'm like, okay. And maybe there's a toe on the ground. Speaker 2 (8:20) I feel a little chinny Speaker 1 (8:22) right Speaker 2 (8:22) now. I'm probably a little chinny. Not to pluck from other people's words of wisdom, but are you familiar with Glennon Doyle? Speaker 1 (8:30) Yes, yeah. Speaker 2 (8:31) So she, I always share this. I've imparted it. If there's any disrespectfully listeners, hello, Kevin. I have said this a lot on my show too, because it was something that was really impactful for me when we're talking about depression, but she gave this example and I think hers wasn't depression. I think she was having an anorexia Speaker 1 (8:47) kind Speaker 2 (8:48) of like episode that was going on for her that she was in recovery from and her and her wife and their kids went to a beach and she felt really called to this staircase. So she walked over to it and she walked, it was really long. She walked down it. And there was a platform and then there was another staircase that kind of went into a darker area. Like, I don't know if it was like a cave or a cement thing or whatever it was. And she just felt really tired. So she sat down on the first staircase at the bottom of it and she looked up and it felt exhausting to go back up there. But then she realized she also didn't have to go further down because she was so tired. So she just wanted to sit on her landing. Speaker 1 (9:24) And Speaker 2 (9:24) in terms of mental illness for me, when I'm having a moment where I'm really slipping and it happens so fast, it's so, Speaker 1 (9:31) it's sneaky, isn't it? It just comes out of nowhere. And it's like, Speaker 2 (9:34) actually, no, you're not well. Enjoy laying on the couch all day, being unable to function. I think I'm on my landing right now. So I think I'm, my descent is, has hopefully stopped. And I, you know, I'm, as someone who's medicated and been medicated for years and been in therapy for years and all kinds of things, it's always. I don't know how you feel about this, but humbling. Like when this, when these episodes happen, because they feel like such far memories to me when I'm out of it and when I'm doing good. And then I take for granted the norm, when you're Speaker 1 (10:05) normal, normal, what's normal for us, we're fucked up. But Speaker 2 (10:07) as normal as we can be. And then when you're in it, you're like, hello, darkness, my old friend. Speaker 1 (10:15) And you're like, oh my God, I know her. For me, humbling and also I'm like. One, shocking. Every single time, I'm like, God, what's going on with me? I just can't, like mine, same thing, can't do anything. I think other people still think I'm doing something, but I'm not. I'm going to my office. I'm sitting there. I can't respond to an email that's like, do you want to, should we record a podcast? I'm like, oh boy, I don't. But that's, you're asking about next week. And then if I commit to that, that's a Tuesday. But then what if I wake up Tuesday and then. I have to do a different thing also. And that's two things. I can't do those kinds of things. And then I'm like embarrassed of it. You know, I'm like, I don't like what's wrong with me. Why can't I do this? And then when it's over, I think it's the funniest thing in the world. I'm like, you couldn't write an email. You couldn't Speaker 2 (11:02) respond Speaker 1 (11:02) to a text. Speaker 2 (11:03) One of my favorite things to say when things are awful and you just have to accept it, not even a depressed episode, like we're in traffic or you're traveling and things go sideways, is I'm always like, we're going to laugh and laugh and laugh about this someday because that's all you can do in that moment. And it definitely doesn't seem hee-hee, ha-ha, funny. And I'm actually, I feel like you'll be game for this, but I kind of want to bare my soul to you today. I'm ready. I haven't even talked about it on my own show because... When I'm in these moments, I am very reclusive. Also, I'm sure you are too. Like even the people who are low energy in my life, it feels like a lot. And I just need to lay on the couch and be not spoken to and just like not do anything. And then when I'm going into record and I'm psyching myself up to, you know, be like bubbly and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When I'm like, no, everything's bad right Speaker 1 (11:49) now. Speaker 2 (11:50) And Speaker 1 (11:50) again, if we do have disrespectfully listeners here with us at the moment. I hope there are. I hope there's crossover. I bet we do. There better be. They're going to know this Speaker 2 (11:59) about me. So I'm super, super mentally ill. All kinds of diagnoses. But I have OCD and one of the things I do is ruminate or I get really stuck on patterns or things. I get really addicted to things. Yeah. People's voices. Speaker 1 (12:11) So Speaker 2 (12:11) I have listened to Matthew Perry's audio book about 150 times. It's Speaker 1 (12:15) a Speaker 2 (12:15) bummer. I dream about him a lot because at night it's just one of the voices that I'm comfortable with and I need the same thing. It was The Office for years, which is why I can repeat pretty much every episode ever. Like I, because, but the intro was waking me up. Speaker 1 (12:28) Oh, yeah. So the books Speaker 2 (12:29) are better. But he said, you know, he was doing really, and by the way, it is a great memoir, so I do recommend it. It Speaker 1 (12:34) is Speaker 2 (12:34) good. But he, you know, is saying he had always dreamt of going on a late show and then being like, how are you, Matthew? And him being like, fucking bad. And that honesty in those moments. So that's kind of what I'm hoping that we get to do. Yeah, really bad. Speaker 1 (12:46) I'm fucking bad right now. Yeah. I'm Speaker 2 (12:48) bad. And, you know, I. when I'm also in those moments, I try to remind myself that I've done it before, so I can do it again. But my first real bout with this, I was like 13 years old. I was, I look at 13 year olds and I'm like, you're so little. And so for me being, I'm bad at math. What's 35 minus 13. Is that 22? I think so. I almost said 12. Yeah. So, so it's not. Okay. Then English major. Speaker 1 (13:15) We're both. Yeah. We're both. I'm a writer. We're both bad at math. Yeah. Speaker 2 (13:17) It's not. So for me, it just feels like the odyssey, right? It's just like never ending and long. And so when I get in these moments, I also get kind of pouty and try not to. I'm not a why me person, but I feel like pissed that I'm like, why does, why am I still not better? And it's been so long, but then it's like, you weren't really set up for success growing up. And you know, brain chemistry is what it is. I Speaker 1 (13:42) know. I know. What was your. childhood like. I mean, to be, I feel like also when I look back, the things that, I'm a little older than you, but we, kids weren't people in like the 80s and the 90s. We were about to be, we were future people. We were children who had become people, but no one was like, oh, this is a whole person in front of me having a life experience. I was the third out of four children. I love my mom. She's wonderful. And my whole family was like, you're so. Fucking annoying. Oh my God. Like, why are you losing your mind over this? Like, why are you having, and it's like, OCD. I'm having a panic attack. Speaker 2 (14:20) Okay. Speaker 1 (14:20) I'm listening to the clock tick in my bedroom. And now I know that I'll only get X minutes of sleep and then I'm going to be tired tomorrow. And now I'm pre-living my entire next day going period by period, just imagining how tired and wrong I'll be at everything and having future conversation. You know, like no one's asking me about those kinds of things. I'm on my own. And so I just think there must be something deeply wrong with me. And there is. 100%. Speaker 2 (14:48) Absolutely. And there is. Not arguing that. But Speaker 1 (14:51) I could have processed through that, right, in a way that I do with my kids now. You know, my kids do have, like, I don't know, I care about their feelings. I ask them about things. Motionly tell them. Yeah. I eat you. They can express those things, right? Yes. They can be like, I had a really hard day and I'm not mad at you, but I'm going to yell at you because you just asked me to make my bed and I don't want to make my bed because I had a hard, you know, I'm like, that's great. That's great. Thank you for telling me that. Speaker 1 (15:40) You don't need more stuff. You need more good stuff. This is why I love Quince. Quince is where you can get beautiful, elevated essentials like cashmere sweaters, 100 % European linen shirts and dresses, gorgeous gold jewelry, beautiful bedding, home goods, furniture for less. Because Quince says, middlemen, we don't need you. We are working directly with ethical factories to bring people the good goods for less. Now, For many of you, fall is coming or it might already be there. I'm very jealous because it's 105 degrees here in Phoenix and all I want to do is put on the Quince Cashmere Rugby Polo. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for the most, including that Cashmere Rugby Polo at quince.com. slash TFA. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash TFA. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash TFA. Speaker 2 (16:50) I don't know what it was with the fuck-ass generations that came before us because part of me, I know, I know, resentment is like drinking the poison and expecting the other person to die. We get it, okay? I'm an angry elf. It is what it is. I come from an angry family. I come from a family of killers. I also have things to be angry about. Speaker 1 (17:07) I Speaker 2 (17:07) do feel like I've worked through a lot of that and the internal rot that has happened, and there's something to be said for that. But also, I'm like, damn, why weren't you better? Watching my sister, gentle parent, she's an incredible parent. We grew up in the same household, but I really do think it's this generation, like starting with you Speaker 1 (17:25) and Speaker 2 (17:26) on, that it's like they... went out of their way to learn these things and to do things differently. And so many people have generational trauma. I mean, me and my sister certainly do. So overall, if you ask me about my childhood, it's funny because I was just talking about this recently in my podcast. I don't speak to my dad anymore. And I really try not to get into specifics beyond facts because he would have a different take on a lot of what I have to say. But I'm like, facts are facts are facts. but I will give credit where credit is due. My childhood was a mix of a lot of chaos and a lot of trauma with a lot of love and a lot of really happy moments. And a lot of my parents both working really hard. They didn't have higher education. I didn't even, you don't know something is your reality until you get older and you realize. other people, like it wasn't the same for them. So I didn't even think like growing up, I ended up being college educated because my mom was like, you need to be independent. You need an education, never rely on another person. You have to take care of yourself. No one else is going to do it for you. And so, but it was like normal to me that they kind of had different odd jobs. Like my dad is a carpet cleaner and also a very talented musician, but it didn't pay well. So we definitely were lower on the socioeconomic totem pole in the sense that like, Here's things I feel resentful about. We didn't have regular doctor's visits or dental care. And it's not to say that we didn't ever, but lots of time went by when we didn't. I ended up having one cavity my entire life when I was 17. And it ended up being a 10 year saga where I required three root canals in one week and almost needed cleft palate surgery because I did not have preventative care as a child. And I'm like, that's not fair. That's kind of bullshit. They also, both of my parents were. I would say emotionally immature. And I had an emotionally unavailable dad with an emotionally overbearing mother. And I was responsible a lot for my mom's emotions and regulating her. And again, I now see that in hindsight. I didn't know it as a kid. And like we watched TV in bed every single night and we used to hold hands in the grocery store and I just didn't. And, you know, she would. My mom absolutely had a drinking problem and would be, you know, for Franzia glasses deep crying about what she was sad about in her life and putting that on me. And, you know, if I didn't have you and your sister, my life would suck and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, wow, what a huge responsibility to put on a small child. And like, you know, again, my parents both worked hard. They did what they can to make ends meet. But I also grew up in a household that was like, you have clothing, shelter and food. You are lucky. Why are you even saying? that you, you know, again, I'm like wanting basic preventative care. I wanted to do sports, but I worked really early and, you know, in life. And, you know, it was like, I wanted to go out for the dance team, but it was a lot of money to buy all the outfits and the gear. It's so expensive. Speaker 1 (20:21) It's very expensive. And I do Speaker 2 (20:22) understand that. But I just think that there wasn't a lot of. thought or planning into having kids. I think that at the time it really was the norm just to do it, even if you weren't prepared, which again, and through this fuck ass administration, them pushing that narrative right now of like, we need more babies. And I'm like, well, people can't buy groceries or do anything. So we should probably, I would not bring children in this world unless I could support them emotionally, physically, spiritually, every which way. And I just don't think it was the norm. Speaker 1 (20:50) I mean, same with my parents. Right. And same with like, I think we have to rename the greatest generation. They're almost all gone now. Right. But Tom Brokaw was like, oh, they fought World War II. Like he was getting boned up for the Speaker 2 (21:01) greatest generation. I will Speaker 1 (21:02) tell you that he loved them too much. They raised boomers. They came home from the war. They were like, let's have, I mean, I'm a Catholic family. Nine kids, nine living kids each out of both of my grandmas. And Speaker 2 (21:13) let's not Speaker 1 (21:13) tell any of them we love them. Ten Speaker 2 (21:14) birds. Speaker 1 (21:15) Absolutely not. And actually, Speaker 2 (21:16) let's never hug them. No. And corporal punishment is 100 % on the table. Speaker 1 (21:19) No, they'll raise each other. My mom's, the second born child, oldest daughter was like feeding her baby siblings at night so her mom could sleep. What? No. I had to say that's, you were parentified. And she was like, what the, I mean, I don't know about that. Right. And now she's Speaker 2 (21:36) in therapy at 76. Right. They're like all these fancy terms and they like don't believe autism existed back then. Like have you seen their train collections? I'm like, you guys, what is, what is going on? I love, I love all your vintage spoons. Okay. I'm just, just got to say that. But in terms of. No one likes Speaker 1 (21:51) coins that much. Speaker 2 (21:52) No one likes coins. Get Speaker 1 (21:53) a Speaker 2 (21:53) grip. Get a grip. It's okay. You're on the spectrum. That's fine. It's okay. So for me. I also, to be fair, had a lot of problems and I think it sucked up a lot of the energy in the room. I think my sister felt kind of, and she was