How to escape your obsession with productivity | Rebecca McMackin and Catherine Price

TED Talks Daily

In this TED Intersections episode, ecological horticulturalist Rebecca McMacken and science journalist Catherine Price discuss the psycholog

Key takeaways

• Catherine Price defines fun as a magical state resulting from the confluence of playfulness, connection, and flow.
• Rebecca McMacken suggests growing milkweed and tomatoes as small, radical acts of environmental activism and self-care.

Main topics

• Redefining productivity
• The science of fun

Notable quotes

Planting a garden means believing in tomorrow.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a call to action to prioritize joy and spontaneo

Transcript preview

Speaker 8 (0:02) You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. We're back with the next episode of our original series, TED Intersections, which features unscripted conversations between experts navigating the ideas shaping our world. When's the last time you did something purely for the joy of it, with nothing to show for it afterward? Our two guests think we don't do it nearly enough. Rebecca McMacken is an ecological horticulturalist who wants people to let their lawns grow wild. Catherine Price is a science journalist and the author of a book about having fun. What they share is the conviction that a lot of us have been sold a lie, that time only counts when it's productive. They say the truth is far more freeing. Life's most valuable parts are immeasurable. If Speaker 4 (0:54) you're just hanging out with a friend and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive? Right. And I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening. What is productive? What's not productive? Like the root of productive is to lead forth pro duco, if I make it super dorky and go Latin right at the beginning of this conversation. Speaker 8 (1:11) Across the conversation, Rebecca and Catherine get into the relief of giving up control, why adding a little friction to your life might be worth it, and what a 400-year-old oak tree can teach us. Speaker 5 (1:22) At a time where... So many people are having trouble even imagining the future. And the future is very uncertain and scary. It can be a pretty radical act to say, I'm going to create this myself. I'm going to go out and do it myself. Speaker 8 (1:37) From growing milkweed to taking up unproductive hobbies, they make the case that doing something for its own sake shouldn't need defending. That's coming up right after a short break. Speaker 2 (1:56) Support comes from WISE, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world. Your life is global. Your money should be too. Some providers promise no fees on overseas transfers. Don't be fooled. Extra costs often hide in bloated exchange rates. Choose WISE. You can send, spend and receive money in over 40 currencies. Count on the exchange rates that you'd usually see on Google. That's how millions save billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get WISE. Visit WISE.com. The Speaker 7 (2:26) questions that keep you up at night about loneliness. About friendship. About Speaker 2 (2:30) where to hang out. Speaker 7 (2:31) We're thinking about them too. That's where our new podcast Corner Piece comes in. We start small on life's biggest questions. I'm Sabrina. I'm Taha. Speaker 2 (2:40) And Speaker 1 (2:40) I'm Melissa. We're Speaker 2 (2:41) friends who've been making stuff on the internet together for the past five years. Speaker 1 (2:44) And we made a podcast with Ted where we launch investigations, share personal stories, and ask expert guests about life's ungoogleable questions. Speaker 7 (2:52) Come hang out with us on Corner Piece. New episodes every other Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (3:04) And now, our TED Conversation of the Day. Speaker 4 (3:07) Things that are really important for us are not easy, like getting together with friends, allowing your kids to go play together without adult supervision. Speaker 5 (3:16) Like, Speaker 4 (3:16) these are not easy. What's easy is to spend a lot of time on products whose designers make money when you spend a lot of time on them. Speaker 5 (3:41) Okay, Katherine, what do people get wrong about productivity? I Speaker 4 (3:46) think we get the whole concept of productivity wrong. To me, I think we tend to think that productivity has to do with money, that if you use time on something and you don't have a quantifiable output, in many cases financial, then it's not worth it, that you weren't productive. And so when I think about it, I try to think of other ways that you can have a productive use of your time. For example, like if you're just hanging out with a friend and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive, right? And I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening. What is productive? What's not productive? Like the root of productive is to lead forth, pro duco, if I make it super dorky and go Latin, right at the beginning of this conversation. But I also just get so tired of when there's the assumption that you need to have an output of any kind in order to have something be classified as productive. What do you see the connection? being between the work that you do and the way that you encourage people to garden for the sake of gardening with our society's obsession with productivity? Speaker 5 (4:44) I do think the way that most people garden, certainly there are some productive gardeners who are interested in growing like the most humongous pumpkins that have ever been grown. It's always Speaker 4 (4:55) pumpkins. Speaker 5 (4:56) Yeah. But most of us do it as a way to get away from that culture of productivity, as a break, as almost a form of self-care or even a practice like yoga and meditation. And so it's just, it's a healthy way to reconnect to the earth, reconnect to ourselves, connect to all the other organisms that are around us and allows people to survive and thrive in this overly productive world. I feel like... your work is similar in that we're all sort of caught up in this busyness that is hard to escape. And it can be hard to remember that we need to have fun. Speaker 4 (5:38) And Speaker 5 (5:38) so do you see your work as spreading like anti-productivity? Speaker 4 (5:44) Well, I mean, again, I think it depends what we think of. the definition of productivity being, but I do see fun as a respite from this obsession with productivity. But I also see this conflict where people will start doing something for fun, and then this need for productivity is so deeply ingrained, they'll turn it into a side hustle. Or like, as a personal example, playing music. Like, I don't care about performing music for an audience. I just really love playing music. But it's very hard to get adults to just... get together to play instead of saying, okay, what's going to be the end product? Like, what's the goal? Are we going to produce something even if it's something that's, you know, not actually tangible like a show? Do you have suggestions for how Speaker 5 (6:22) to do that? I mean, I can't imagine calling my friends and being like, it's bingo night or something. But is that really as easy as it sounds? Speaker 4 (6:31) Well, I don't think it's easy because I think... we all are overscheduled and we have pretty deep issues when it comes to this like drive for quote productivity. And that is why it can be useful to recognize that fun can help you with these other more serious goals that you may have in your life. But I do think it is easier than we often assume. And that. if you start to think of fun as valuable then it becomes also easier to take the steps to make it happen and Speaker 5 (6:57) i Speaker 4 (6:57) remember for example like when i gave a talk once a young woman coming up to me after my talk and she was saying you know i've had this taco tuesday night with my friends for years and i knew i loved it but i didn't really realize how valuable it was i didn't really realize it was almost like a sacred ritual that I have with my friends because it's the time where we let down our guard and we actually connect with each other and we really catch up. And it's kind of a silly concept, you know, Taco Tuesdays, but actually it's one of my favorite moments of the whole week. And it's a break from all the pressure I put myself under. And it's a time to connect with the people I care about. Speaker 5 (7:31) So Speaker 4 (7:31) I think that it's not as hard as you can have these rituals that aren't that hard to establish that then take on this greater meaning. Speaker 5 (7:39) But Speaker 4 (7:40) I do think that given our cultural obsession with productivity and efficiency and all that, like we do need to step back and say, I'm going to carve out time for this. Speaker 4 (7:50) All right. What's one thing people should incorporate to have a healthier and happier life? Speaker 5 (7:56) I mean, I think everybody, everyone should grow tomatoes and milkweed. Everybody. Tell me more. I think it is such a small gesture, but it really can change people's lives. Growing tomatoes, you can't. buy tomatoes as good as you can grow them. They're just absolutely amazing. And so you really grow them for yourself, for your family, for your friends. And growing milkweed is an offering and a way to give back to the many organisms around you who are struggling, really. And so I think that process, right now, when I look at humanity in general, it really does seem like People feel isolated and even sometimes alienated from the natural world. And that sort of gesture, it's a very small gesture of providing a gift back to that natural world, can be just a very hopeful, very gentle even form of activism for people to... help create the world that they want to see for the future. And then to be able to watch that,