Denise Breen-Lawton KC

Talking Law with Dr Sally Penni MBE

Denise Breen-Lawton KC reflects on her unconventional journey into the criminal bar, beginning with a business management degree before retraining in law without

Key takeaways

• Denise Breen-Lawton KC initially worked in marketing at Boots Healthcare Company before completing a two-year part-time conversion course while employed full-time.
• She secured pupillage after taking a paralegal position at Owen Mitchell, where networking with silk Jason Pitter later proved instrumental to her career progression.

Main topics

• Unconventional career path into the Bar
• King's Counsel appointment process and role

Notable quotes

The common mistakes I often see and people don't think about enough is what are they ultimately asking the court or the tribunal to do? What's their end game, really?

Conclusion

The episode delivers actionable career guidance for aspiring legal professionals while underscoring

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:03) Hello and welcome to Talking Law, the podcast where you can hear barristers, judges, solicitors, managing partners and more talk about their careers and their lives in the law. I'm Dr Sally Penny, MBE. I'm a barrister at Kenworthy Chambers in Manchester, Speaker 3 (0:20) UK, Speaker 2 (0:20) and the founder of Women in the Law UK. This episode is sponsored by St. Philip's Chambers. For more information about those chambers and their widespread of work, do visit StPhillips.com Speaker 2 (0:39) I'm delighted to be interviewing Denise Breen Lawson, KC. Denise is a criminal barrister at St Philip's Chambers, where she acts for both the defence and the prosecution in complex, serious cases, including terrorism, homicide, fraud and organised crime. She grew up in rural town in North Wales and was the first in the family to go to university. The original plan was... was to study another subject, which you'll find out in this episode. You'll discover how she found herself on the way to the bar instead. You'll also discover her career path since she made that decision, including the route to being appointed King's Counsel, and how she became a bencher of Grey's Inn, one of the four historic inns of court that trained barristers in England and Wales. And... Why Denise feels careers in law need a greater focus on social mobility, inclusion and representation for women, even in 2026. She began her interview by telling me about her very early days of her career in the law. Speaker 1 (1:53) When I started out 26 years ago, I did absolutely everything I was given by the clerks. Speaker 2 (1:59) I Speaker 1 (2:00) did civil law, I did family law. I just went along to court and did whatever I was told to do. And then I think the area of law in those days tends to sort of pick you, really. So I ended up focusing on crime exclusively pretty much in the last 15 years. And so that's what I do on a daily basis. Speaker 3 (2:24) Wow. Speaker 1 (2:24) Wow. Speaker 3 (2:25) Can we go back to the beginning? Speaker 2 (2:28) I still think this is my favourite or one of my favourite questions on this podcast. Speaker 3 (2:33) Why law? Why did you choose law or did the law choose you? And why the bar? Because, of course, you're not a solicitor. Not only are you a barrister, but you are King's Counsel. And I'll come to break all those down in a moment. But from the beginning, how is it that you came to become a barrister? Speaker 1 (2:49) I actually did not do a law degree. I did a business management degree and the three major subjects in my final year were marketing, accountancy and law. And I absolutely loved the law. It was all to do with commercial law, but it was still quite interesting. At one point, I was thinking of maybe becoming an accountant, but I thought, actually, it's not that exciting. No, I Speaker 3 (3:15) can say that. That's the last thing I Speaker 1 (3:17) would ever have put you down for. Speaker 1 (3:20) I did quite well in my accountancy exams. Sure Speaker 3 (3:23) you did. Just as a busy criminal silk, it would just never cross my mind. And then Speaker 1 (3:29) I got a job in marketing for the Boots Healthcare Company, worked at their head office. And then I thought, actually, I'm a little bit bored of this. I don't really want to be working for a large corporation, just talk about profit figures and products all the time. And so I retrained. I did my conversion course two years part time whilst working in order to fund it. And I thought, actually, I want to do something that's more to do with people and their lives. And I just found that more interesting. And obviously, I didn't know anybody in law at all. Speaker 3 (4:08) Well, that was my next question. Speaker 1 (4:10) Did you know anybody Speaker 3 (4:11) actually in law? I Speaker 1 (4:12) didn't know anybody. leap of faith leaving my full-time job to go on the bar course. Why the bar rather than solicitor? I think it's the advocacy that attracted me really to the bar rather than being a solicitor. I just love the idea of speaking to juries and speaking in court all the time, which is what I do on a daily basis now. So that's what really attracted me. And I thought, Actually, if I become a solicitor, I'm not going to get that opportunity to do that advocacy quite as often, certainly in those days anyway. And so I wrote to lots of chambers because there was no internet really properly in those days. You had a directory and you had to go to this massive book and work out which chambers you wanted to apply to. People didn't have websites. Chambers didn't have websites. You had no real idea. what they did or what their specialisms were or anything you know people didn't really report on their cases on a daily basis like we get now online and so it's a bit of a stab in the dark really when you're writing to chambers at that point in time I was not successful in gaining pupillage I went to many interviews I didn't know what I was doing there wasn't really any mentoring at that stage or proper training like you have now and so and I also realized now that Most of the people who were interviewing me probably didn't know what they were doing either at that point in time. So I ended up getting a paralegal job at Owen Mitchell in Sheffield in their fraud department, sitting on a case behind a load of silks and a load of juniors for five months. And that's how I met the silk who was head of chambers at St Paul's in Leeds at the time. And that's essentially how I ended up networking with people in those chambers and then how I eventually got my pupillage. Wow. Wow. So, yeah, it wasn't an easy route, some might say. But, yeah, it was an interesting route. And I learned a lot from being a paralegal, picked up a lot of skills and actually saw things from the other side of the fence as well. And learnt about how solicitors operate and client care from their point of view. So I think they're valuable lessons to go forward to the bar with. Speaker 3 (6:37) Yeah, Speaker 1 (6:38) absolutely. Speaker 3 (6:39) It's so interesting you say that because, you know, you are hugely successful, Silk, and the route into it, you know. We probably don't talk about it enough. That's what having interesting guests on this podcast and interviews about, that there are many routes to reaching a destination. So that is a fantastic route Speaker 2 (6:57) into the bar that you've taken. I Speaker 3 (7:00) asked you whether you knew anybody at the bar and you didn't. And so as one often gets a view, there was an old perception that, you know, people only get in if you know someone and your daddy's this or your auntie's this. I didn't have that and nor did you. And am I right in thinking you're the first person in your... family to go to university yeah Speaker 1 (7:17) that's right and so where I grew up in rural north Wales you were expected to either work in the local factory or get married to a farmer and I didn't want to do either of those things really no at all I don't blame you I don't think I would either People tried to persuade me, you know, what are you wasting your time going to this university for? Why don't you just earn some money and get a job? As they saw it. But I battled on through and I paid my way throughout all of my education and thought this is my ticket out of this situation, really. I've got to educate myself. Speaker 2 (7:57) Yes, Speaker 1 (7:58) yes. Speaker 3 (7:59) Well, I'm looking at you're in your room in chambers and there's an enormous shelf. with all sorts of boxes of briefs and books there, which is just a sign of just how successful and hugely passionate you are about the law. And I wanted to ask you perhaps some of the more traditional questions that I sometimes ask when I'm talking to people about their careers and successes in the law. One of them really is this. What would be advice that you would give to somebody who wants to enter the law now? like tomorrow, you know, you are hugely passionate about social mobility, aren't you? Speaker 1 (8:35) Yes, I am. And I often go to training events and mentoring events for young people at universities. And we do quite a bit of outreach work in chambers and at Grey's Inn. My top tips, I think, would be really, if you're interested in a career at the bar, go to court and watch some advocacy. It's free. You can just wander in and sit in the public gallery quietly. The one thing I would say is that if you're going to do that, make sure you ask the usher to ask the judge for permission if you want to take notes because you don't want to get into trouble for doing that. Go and watch as much as you can in court proceedings so you get a feel for the sorts of things that happen and the jury system and what the job is really like. Network as much as you can. And that's easier said than done. I think particularly if you come from a background where you're not used to networking and you walk into a room full of people who are really confident, or at least you perceive that they are really confident. Speaker 3 (9:38) Yes. Speaker 1 (9:38) And you don't really know how to start a conversation because you don't know anybody. And that's quite a big barrier for young people, I think. And they have to try and train themselves to do it. and to build their confidence in that way. My top tip for that would be, you know, to just walk up to some people, say hello, you know, my name's so-and-so, where have you come from today, where do you work, what sort of things do you do, and people generally respond well if you ask them lots of questions. Don't ask too many, obviously just make, you know, polite conversation, be genuinely interested in where they've come from and what they're doing there, and you will actually find that those people that you thought were really confident and were really enjoying that experience also might think, oh, I don't really feel like networking today, but I've come after a long day at court or I've been really busy. I don't really feel like doing this. But once you get into it, it's actually quite nice to get to know lots of different people and network. Also, if you are making applications. Speaker 1 (10:44) chambers for mini-pupillages or pupillages, the common mistake