Wallabies Coach Les Kiss: The Road Ahead for Australian Rugby & the 2027 World Cup

Straight Talk with Mark Bouris

In this episode, Les Kiss discusses his journey from a rugby league player in Bundaberg to the head coach of the Australian Wallabies. He re

Key takeaways

• Les Kiss draws heavily on defensive expertise gained while coaching the Springboks to implement manipulation tactics in rugby union.
• Australia is identified as a major net exporter of rugby talent due to high-paying opportunities in European leagues like the French League.

Main topics

• Les Kiss's coaching journey
• Rugby League vs. Rugby Union tactics

Notable quotes

I think you have the sum of your choices basically in life.

Conclusion

The episode provides a technical and strategic look at the future of A

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Les Kiss, welcome to Straight Talk, mate. Speaker 3 (0:02) Thanks, mate. I'm looking forward to this one for sure. Thanks for having me. Speaker 2 (0:07) You're welcome. Well. I mean, like, a lot of people don't know your story. You know, that's where I want to start. Like, where does Les Kiss come from, like, initially? Like, where did you grow up? We all know you played rugby league. We'll talk about that in a moment. But, like, who's the kid? Speaker 3 (0:26) Yeah, Speaker 2 (0:26) it Speaker 3 (0:26) was basically a Bundy kid, really, Bundaberg. You know, that's where I started my rugby league. Speaker 3 (0:34) You know, things grew from that space. You know, someone like Tony Ray, I'm not sure if you know Tony Ray. I played with the Sydney Bears. He had a lot to do with the London Broncos. His father was, you know, a fairly important figure in mine. I met him, he was a teacher at school. He got me going into rugby league and into a deeper way and helped promote my career and my... where I went in the future. So I had a big influence from someone like John Ray. Speaker 2 (1:00) It's funny how, was he a teacher? Yes. Isn't it funny how teachers can have a massive impact on us? Massively. Like, so can, to some extent, can mould us. And to a large extent, as a coach, you're a little bit like a teacher, but we'll come back to that in a moment. But what impact did school and teaching have on you relative to who Les Kiss is today? Speaker 3 (1:24) Yeah. Yeah, well, I wasn't overly academic, that's for sure. I was curious. I wasn't smart, all those things. But I was more interested in the sport side of things. Contact sports or just contact? All sports. I would have done every event in athletics. I would have played soccer in the backyard or around lunchtime or played touch. I never got to kick an Aussie rules football around because it wasn't as huge back in those days. Cricket. It was massive. If anything, I grew up wanting to be Dennis Lilly of Speaker 2 (1:58) all things. You've got Speaker 3 (1:59) the moustache. Yeah, I just don't have that arm. That arm just came down and put fear in guys. But, you know, I think it's representative of a lot of us. We're a country that's rich in many sports and we expose ourselves to many different sports. It's certainly in more recent times, you know, parents will... channel their child into a certain area. But I still think we have that wonderful exposure visually, television, in all forms that we get exposed to a lot of different sports. And I think it's massively unique for us. Like if you're a Kiwi, you probably play cricket or rugby, nothing else. You know what I mean? In other countries, you probably play one or two. We're exposed to so many different sports and I was no different with my mates back then. And yeah, school was important. I played school footy, first 13 rugby league and played for past brothers rugby league club in Bundy and that was my trajectory into the big league in Brisbane. Speaker 2 (2:59) So I don't know much about Bundaberg. I've been there once but when I hear about Bundaberg, I think of a sugar town, like I think of sugar cane and sugar cane mills and all that sort of stuff. Tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in Bundaberg. What did you learn from places like that? I mean, here you are on the big stage, you know, the coach of the Australian side. In some respects, when you think about it, a kid from Bundaberg is now coaching the Wallabies and about to go into the World Cup in 2027. But that in itself must freak you out a little bit. Speaker 3 (3:31) Yeah, a lot of WTF moments for sure. Yeah. The missus will go, what the F? Totally. Yeah, because this was not a plan at all. But I think most of us who grew up in regional country areas in Australia, we Speaker 2 (3:49) aspire to be something through sport. Is that right? Do you think so? I Speaker 3 (3:54) think a lot of people did, and it's become. broader, I guess, there's more Speaker 2 (3:58) educational opportunities Speaker 3 (3:59) and for youngsters to grow through sport. Even from girls now, women in sport, they aspire to express through the sport. And the big cities is where it really happens. So you end up, Speaker 2 (4:10) you know, ending Speaker 3 (4:12) up finding a space if you're good enough, if you've got enough talent to go to the big smoke and try it out. And I ended up in Brisbane playing for Fortitude Valley. Speaker 3 (4:23) I got hunted by a guy called Peter McWhirter. He played origin. He was the coach of Valley Diehards in Brisbane. And from there, it just flourished. It just went ahead. Speaker 2 (4:34) So you're a kid at school, 16, 17, and then he sort of, let's call it, recruited you? Yeah, well, I got recruited to the local club first while Speaker 3 (4:42) you joined for the junior rugby there. But that's where my name became, you know. on the lips of people in the big smoke. There was a guy who played for Valleys, Tommy Duggan, who owned a pub in Bundy. You know, it's the old Chinese whispers or the Bush Telegraph and suddenly McQuirt is up there with me, running me around the place and says, come to Brisbane. And I had four offers then. I had an offer from Artie Beetson at the time. He was at Speaker 2 (5:13) Redcliffe? Speaker 3 (5:14) Yeah, yeah. Did he offer to come to the Roosters? Yeah, both. Yeah. And then an offer from Brothers in Brisbane. But I was a fan of Valleys as a kid. I mean, that's the team I wanted to play for. It was the lowest offer. It wasn't big money back in those days, but it was the lowest offer. And something in my gut said I had to do it. And I always reflect on it. It was a, you know, I think you have the sum of your choices basically in life. And that choice was pretty important for me. I didn't go for the money. I went for something that mattered at the heart of everything. What Speaker 2 (5:48) was that? What was that? Because it's valleys, Speaker 3 (5:51) valley diehards. I sit on the hill at Lane Park and watch them play, you know what I mean? I Speaker 2 (5:55) wanted to put that jersey on. What was the essence, though, sitting within the diehards that you thought, I want to be part of that ethic? Speaker 3 (6:04) Yeah, well, you see Alan Mills run around, who he had Doherty games, names you wouldn't remember now. Wally Lewis played there. It was just that royal blue jersey. Something hit you. Something romantic? Yeah, I guess it has to be. There is something romantic about it for sure. And when it came down to it, and I mentioned John Ray earlier, he had a big deal for me at Brisbane Brothers, and I remember... having to go to a phone booth in the day, you put your coin in, I rang John and I said, John, I'm Speaker 2 (6:33) going Speaker 3 (6:33) to disappoint you, mate. I can't play for brothers. I have to go and pay for them. How old Speaker 2 (6:37) were you? Speaker 3 (6:38) 19 or something. Speaker 2 (6:39) 19. Speaker 3 (6:39) Yeah, 19, something like that. So there I am, ended up at the club that I loved as a kid. And what I was trying to say is that it makes you really search into the reason why you make your decisions in life. Be sure that you're not going for the wrong reasons. And I thought... At the time, I didn't think like that. I just wanted to represent that, but valleys. And then when I think back on it, it was important. It sort of forged the way I thought about my decisions in the future. I probably overthink it sometimes, but I make sure whatever decision I'm making, I research it pretty deeply. But that one wasn't research. It was just a deep feeling of, yeah, I wanted to be a valley diehard, and to this day I am. So I've still got my original jersey. Speaker 3 (7:27) And that matters. It matters to me anyway. Speaker 2 (7:29) So how did you end up in Queensland reps? In rugby league, I'm talking about now. Yeah. My Speaker 3 (7:34) rugby league rep was through from Butterburgin to, you know, the regional areas, Wide Bay and that. And just by chance, I'd just re-signed with Valley for two years and the Bears came hunting. The North Sydney Bears, Bob Saunders, Chicken Norton, the coach at the time, they came to Brisbane. at the end of that season to sign Gary Belcher. Speaker 3 (7:59) They found out Gary was going with Mal and the boys to Canberra Raiders. So my name popped up and he rang me and I said, look, I'm sorry, I've already signed. And then he said, look, we'd like you to come. So I went and spoke to my coach, Peter McWhirter, and Peter said, you've got to go down there. That's where I made my way to the State of Origin team, going to the bigger smoke, Sydney, playing for the North Sydney Bears. And yeah. Things really accelerated in 1986 year. It just went from good to better. Was Speaker 2 (8:35) that 1986? Did you play Origin Queensland in 1986? 1986. Was that the year that – maybe I'm getting confused. No, I'm thinking about another game. No, wait a minute. No, no, no. Is it a brawl? in that game? No, no, there wasn't a Speaker 3 (8:49) brawl in that one. I think you're talking about maybe a year before or a year after. Because I wasn't in 87. I injured my knees and I was out for a couple of days. Because I Speaker 2 (8:56) remember seeing a brawl only recently where I saw Max Krilic was involved in it. Yeah, that was before me then, yeah. That was before you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was, that was, that was, Bugden was fighting Broadhurst or one of those sort of people. Like, it was like, it was like, unbelievable. You would never get away with it today. What did you learn from playing State of Origin about rugby league that you've taken into rugby union coaching I'm talking about? Yeah, that's Speaker 3 (9:22) a good question. Speaker 2 (9:25) You know, what you do in the Speaker 3 (9:27) past, what reservoir memories or experiences that you do have, things do come through. They do. Oh, for sure. You Speaker 2 (9:34) probably Speaker 3 (9:34) know yourself in that and what you learn in different ways, what you learn what to do and what you wouldn't do and who you listen to and who you don't. Speaker 3 (9:44) Yeah, the big lesson there was, you know, this sounds really basic, but... Speaker 3 (9:55) When it comes down to it, when you're with your mates, your best mates, the Queensland psyche is so interesting in its own right. It's different. It is. But there's something that you'll play for something bigger than yourself. I always played the game for the joy and the love. I loved it. But there's something else that's bigger than you. Speaker 2 (10:11) You weren't paying for the money you get paid for playing state of origin. No, Speaker 3 (10:14) no. Speaker 2 (10:15) You played for Queensland. I mean, it's a thing that Queensland, I'll be honest here, did have a mortgage on until about, I think Madge. I think Madge has brought that into New South Wales more recently and then Laurie's carried it on. But you're right. Queensland, there's something in the Queensland psyche that for 20, 30 years to playing for Queensland was just more important than anything. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3 (10:40) And I think in the early days, the only person. And I'll be respectful here because the New South Wales Blues are brilliant players, a brilliant team. But I remember Mortimer lifting the trophy in 83, 84. That one period, there was something about him that took it to another level. And when they get to that space, it's hard to beat New South Wales. Speaker 3 (11:01) You know, the thing I felt was that you can actually find more in yourself. And it's not just you and yourself. It's with your mate next to you and what you build with the guy either side of you. It's all about teamship and all those. And those things exist in every team. But there's something else that I learned that you can actually extend what this means to you beyond the game itself, beyond the ball being passed left and right, beyond the tackle. And we had some wonderful characters in that team, a great rugby league team. And, yeah, that was special. Who were Speaker 2 (11:33) some of the guys on that side? Speaker 3 (11:34) G. Miles, Wally Lewis, you know what I mean? Not bad. Gary Belcher, you know what I mean? Horse up the front, Brian Kneebling. Dowling, it was a tough, uncompromising period of rugby league. And every era of the game is brilliant. But Speaker 2 (11:52) they're different. Speaker 3 (11:53) They're different. The difference in those days was sometimes it was brutal. You wouldn't accept some of the things that happened in the game back then now, but there was also another level that still exists in the game in a different way, but different skill. The way that we expressed our Speaker 2 (12:09) skills was bloody beautiful. Yeah, totally. Two things come out of what you just said about you coaching Australia. relative to your experiences, the well of experiences you're going to draw on, is making the team play for Australia. They're playing for Australia. So you want more than they're just their basic skill base. You want them to be better than what they can do every week, playing first grade or playing in Waratahs or wherever it happens to be. You want them to be all together playing for Australia. I want to hear about that, what you think about that and what you're going to do about that in relation to Australia. the team you're coaching now. But equally, how does the skill base need to be expressed differently today in rugby union, say, compared to previous periods? A bit like what's going on in rugby league today, the skill base is expressed differently. And therefore, to some extent, you're the coach, you have to know the skill base that we need, a bit like in rugby league, and we have to go and find the individuals who can perform that skill base based on their height, their... athleticism, their experiences, things you'd watch in a football player. And that's where I want to go. I think the audience would love to go there too. And what does Les Kiss think about that? But before I move off that, what did you do post-Origin? Where have you been? Les Kiss all of a sudden arrives on the stage following Schmidt as the Australian coach. But where have you been over the last 10, 15 years? Speaker 2 (13:41) Yeah, where do Speaker 3 (13:42) I start, in all honesty? Speaker 3 (13:45) 86 kangaroo tour, I got a serious knee injury. I got it repaired, but I blew the knee again. I literally, you know, five games back in. So I was out of the game for about 24 months there. That period there, it was a soul-searching period, as all injuries are. And I think that's where the germination of becoming a coach. seeing the game for a different lens rather than in the game, outside work with the coach closely. I think that set me on a trajectory of curiosity about that side of the game, how you build a team and pull things together, that sense of something bigger than just yourself, how to become the best us that we can be, all those things. But that threw me into coaching. So as I played on my career, I ended up in coaching. I coached Matthew Flegg. Presidents' Cup, assisted first grade at the Bears, and suddenly I'm on this trajectory. I'm going to be coaching. And I've really done nothing else in my life rather than play footy and coach. Oh, really? Yeah, and that's unique from that period. I did a bit of work for a sponsor, a poker machine company, as we all do. We jumped in and out of that. But most of my time was in coaching. And in my Bears coaching career, there was a time where, and I mentioned Tony Ray earlier, he was at the... London Broncos. So first stint overseas, went and did London Broncos. I got called back to be part of the North Sydney Bears and Manly Amalgamation Northern Eagles. A good friend of mine who we coached against each other with Manly Juniors and Bears Juniors was Frank Panisi, a good mate of mine. We were the assistant coaches of Peter Sharp. And after a year, I knew that this was just a Manly takeover anyway. And Frank helped me get a connection with Springbrook Rugby. Suddenly, I'm working with the Springboks on a six-week contract, and that became another 10-week contract. Then it became a two-year contract. Speaker 2 (15:46) So I learnt rugby Speaker 3 (15:47) through the eyes of the Springboks. Speaker 2 (15:49) Would a rugby union team like the Springboks drag you into their coaching environment because of the defensive prowess of a rugby league game? Speaker 3 (15:59) Yeah, because John Muggleton, you remember him, Phil Larder in British Rugby League, went to Union. He was looking for, the head coach at the time was looking for some expertise in rugby league. And when Frank introduced me to them, Frank stayed on and coached. He went on to the Springboks later, by the way, Frank. But I had this opportunity, so I took it in hands. And it was mainly about that, the skill sets of defence, but also things I hadn't... They didn't know about at the time of running lines, unders and overs, manipulating. They were very much about attrition. I'm bigger than you. I'll run over you. Whereas the maneuver part of the game, which is, you know, in our DNA, the Aussie DNA is how do we work things out? How do we pull you apart and break down defense lines? They had never done any of that. So I was at the infancy of that. And then Tim Lane came in after me and took that on. So I had 13