Are design influencers ruining the industry?

Sticky Notes with CJ Cawley and Jack Chitty

The episode explores the tension between professional designers and the rising phenomenon of 'design influencers.' Hosts CJ Cawley and Jack

Key takeaways

Jack Chitty revealed he turned down a nearly Â£30,000 offer from Adobe to avoid being categorized as a 'design influencer.'
The hosts distinguish between content used as a marketing funnel for clients and content created solely to attract brand deals.
There is a documented risk that an 'influencer' reputation can lead to loss of employability in serious design studios.
Social media makes design education more accessible but risks spreading misinformation through unverified creators.
The hosts discuss the ethical complexity of using 'hooks' and viral techniques to capture attention while trying to remain authentic to the craft.

Main topics

Design Influencers vs. Designers
Ethics of Brand Deals
Social Media Impact on Industry

Notable quotes

I want to be recognized for [the work], not for being an influencer dude.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a cautionary reflection on the importance of pri

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) still editing cap cut and i just don't understand yeah in cap cut you have to like drag a transition onto the timeline so i don't understand like how how that happens i don't know Speaker 2 (0:10) bruv but you know mental Speaker 1 (0:11) well i think i think you owe everyone an apology for such woeful editing skills yeah Speaker 2 (0:17) if you were if you were watching well specifically if you're watching if you're listening it didn't matter but if you're watching last week's episode probably what about 40 minutes into it maybe 30, 40 minutes? I honestly couldn't tell you. Basically, Jack was speaking and Speaker 1 (0:29) I clearly just decided that I Speaker 2 (0:32) didn't want to hear it anymore and I just faded him out when he went to black because I was just like, shut up, Jack. Speaker 1 (0:39) I don't usually watch them. Sometimes I will. And to be honest, quite often I won't even listen to them. Did you just admit to everyone that Speaker 2 (0:48) you don't even listen back to Speaker 1 (0:50) our podcast? Not really, Speaker 2 (0:52) no. It's weird though, isn't it? It is weird. Speaker 1 (0:55) Actors don't watch their own movies back. It's just a bit strange. I've already been in it. I've had the conversation. I know what happens. I know what happens at the end of this movie. Speaker 1 (1:07) And so now I do listen to them sometimes, but it's largely if like we've done something, we've done an episode about something that maybe I'm like, how did that actually go? Because as soon as we finish these, I kind of don't really remember what we've spoken about. But so I'll sometimes listen to them back to be like, okay, that was all right. Yeah. Well, I have to listen to them back because I'm. Speaker 2 (1:25) like editing stuff or doing it. So I spent quite a bit of time listening to the conversation about four fucking fucking, you know, five times in a row. Yeah. It's fine. So yeah, sorry everybody about that. I completely screwed up Jack and sort of disrespected him. And now I have to publicly apologize. It feels like a humiliation ritual right now that I'm doing. Yeah, quite Speaker 1 (1:45) right. Speaker 2 (1:45) Maybe that kind of leads in quite nicely to the topic that we're going to talk about actually this week, which is the difference between, I suppose, design influencers or design content creators and designers and where that line is between trying to use social media to market yourself and then still being taken seriously as a studio and Speaker 1 (2:07) still being Speaker 2 (2:08) taken seriously? Speaker 1 (2:09) Yeah, I think also it's worth touching on like, and that as a contribution to the design community, like a good or a bad thing with design influencers. Also worth saying, I am poorly. as you might be able to hear from my voice, getting a bit gravelly. So as we get through the episode, I might end up barely contributing at all because my voice is completely dying. Yeah, Jack said before... Apologies for audio listeners. Yeah, Speaker 2 (2:34) before we started recording, Jack said that his voice is going and it sounds like this, but I think he's just trying to put on a sexy voice to try and look all cool and mysterious, personally, myself. But not judging. I'm kidding, dude. You do sound shit. Try Speaker 1 (2:47) and farm compliments. Speaker 2 (2:48) Right, so look, let's, you know... Kick it off for me, dude. What's, do you know what, is there a difference? Is there a line in the sand between a content creator slash influencer slash someone just using social media to market themselves? Speaker 1 (3:03) I think so. That delineation, I think, is quite murky, though. I think it's kind of shades of grey. I think it's kind of like the intention potentially behind the making of the content. If you're making content to get brand deals, to then promote products, to then, you know, promote services and things like that, and actually you're kind of using design as a... uh a topic to promote through um that's probably that's more because you are literally influencing people to do something like you are literally trying to get someone to download something or buy something whereas people who use content as a marketing funnel is a different thing I think there is someone there's a difference between someone who creates content and someone who's a content creator I think there is like yeah okay this is interesting strange difference um because you know I like I've I'm sure we've both had that um I suppose accusation it kind of feels like of being called an influencer but We don't influence anything. No, I think this is Speaker 2 (4:15) where I think the distinction is as well, dude, with this topic, is that... I think the second there's this like number next to your name that's somewhat significant on social media this metric to you you just get put in that category and it is a very much like strange position yourself or be positioned and I think I've I fell into that trap I think maybe we both did fall into that trap of being or looking like or accused or however you want to look at it as uh design influencers and uh I you know I personally I do hate that term so much because I'm not ever out there being like, buy this product, buy this thing, download this thing, grab this thing, and from all these random peoples. And that's what I personally think is a design influencer or an influencer on social media is someone who is a vessel for other people's information. They're sort of just there as a character of themselves to sell something to other people, which I think maybe for a moment in time, it kind of looked like... we were all going to go that way a little bit a lot of people that were making content in the design space but i think me and you now have both very very uh especially this year have decided to scrub that off of our name as much as we can we're Speaker 1 (5:30) trying to but i don't think i don't think we'll ever um you know people have their opinions i don't think we can ever really do that i remember um a friend of the pod jesse nyberg he said um that there's this like trajectory of graphic designers where you start as a graphic designer you realize you can't really make much money so then you go to it you become an influencer to then get the money to then be able to be a graphic designer again so because you make the money from the brand deals so that you can work on smaller cool fun projects which i think is quite interesting um and you know like you know we do have to caveat that like we have like spoken about things that we think are good you know like various sites or uh mock-ups or you know what have you and like type foundries and things like that um but they're generally because we just like are actually behind them and i know that that's like you know quite a classic trope of uh the influence is like you know guys i wouldn't actually promote anything that i'm not fully behind myself you Speaker 2 (6:27) know that Speaker 1 (6:27) kind of thing which i know is like you know it's well trodden path um but you know it is kind of true and you know we have we have not made any money really from this everything we've put into we put back into the podcast like whenever we've done that stuff it's not been um with any kind of agenda but i think um you know i think it's also what do you actually spend time doing like we spend all of our all everything that we do is to facilitate being able to do more design whereas i think if you're like a content creator it's to everything like you're spending most of your time making content yeah Speaker 2 (7:01) which Speaker 1 (7:02) Again, it's like the purpose of what you're making. The purpose of what we make is to educate others and attract clients. That's kind of like really the main two pillars, the main two roles of the content. Whereas others, it's like to attract brand deals. It's to get people to sign up to stuff. So yeah, it's a strange delineation. And I think it's not even that clear in my head. I think it's just maybe I'll see a piece of work, piece of content, and I'll be like, hmm. yeah, I think you're like a shill for some other company. I don't, it doesn't feel like that's your gen. And you know, also those people don't have often their own opinion that they're allowed to share. It's just kind of like reverberating, regurgitating other people's to, to try and get people to download stuff. So I think the, um, the split is quite gray. And I think there are a lot of people who kind of straddle that line as well. Um, and you know, also, I know I'm going on a bit now, but I think, uh, I don't have any real disrespect for those people either. I think there is, I think we've spoken about it before, where... there's kind of different camps that people sit in within design to make money and there's like obviously like client pool there's there's brand deals there's actually like getting paid for the views and the content itself and lots of different things and i think and also like you're making courses and summits and all the rest of it online um seminars and what have you there's loads of different ways that loads of different um avenues to make money within design And I think it depends on people's skill set and interest. I think, like, obviously, we are absolute diehard fans of just creating things, like actual design work. And I'm not trying to pedestal that at all. Like, that's therefore more noble or more meaningful of a purpose than anything else. But that's where we really like to play. And I think some people who are like, do you know what? If I'm really honest with myself, I'm not. as good at design as some other people or I'm not interested in it as much as other people so then they pivot into different uh avenues to make money with it still within design whether that be through content education courses seminars yeah you know what um and so there is like a difference and um I don't know what do you think on um the the without using the word influence I suppose the impact that this kind of sort of fragmented, fractured way of making money within design has had, what impact has that had, do you think, on the industry? Do you think it's a positive thing? Do you think that maybe it's selling a dream that isn't really realistic? Or, you know, what do you think? Speaker 2 (9:41) Oh, dude, that's a fucking huge question to answer, isn't it? And it's tough. Look, I'll definitely... Apologies. Now you've made me sick. You're a weirdo. Yeah, look, I... I actually don't see the gray area, but that's because I think I'm in it. So I can see very clear divisions of content and people that make content about design, but the purpose of it is because I want to make content and I just need something to talk about and it would just so happen to be design because I'm somewhat okay at it or good at it. But I'm not that interested. They don't have that. Like I said, they're not inherently that excited about design. They're more excited about creating content. And they just go, fuck, I kind of like designing. I can make content here. I think there's people that do that. I think there's people that are just solely creating content for, I want to make money doing this thing. And design is literally the last thing on their mind. Again, it just so happens to be that. It's like the proper other end of the extreme. And then there's people, maybe more like ourselves, are genuinely trying to run a studio or freelance, and they're using it to market themselves in order to do that. And then there's like even hyper smaller versions of that again, where it's like people are just like, I only care about the craft and fuck making content of any kind. And I'm just going to post a picture of my logo, right? There's just like, there's this a kind of like a tear shape like this that's happening. I think I sit somewhere in the middle of those worlds because I do really like making content. But when I say making content, it's not that I enjoy making content to make money from it or anything like that. I make content because it's another art form. It's like another opportunity to create something and explain an idea. So I enjoy it from that point of view, but it's always about the craft and always about the love. And my issue, the damaging side I've experienced from it is just, again, is that people just sort of maybe we see that. Because I'm in it, I see the clear divisions. I'm like, well, no, I'm really serious about the craft, man. I'm a fucking designer, baby. Don't put me in the camp of, I'm not a content creator. I'm not that guy. I'm a designer. I want to be seen as a designer. But I think for the wider audience, that aren't in this when you're not the person making it they don't see that difference they go you're on instagram and you talk about design you're a design influencer like done blanket i don't care okay yeah how good the content is or how well articulated you are within the craft you know there could be someone making a video where they're like designing a logo ha ha Speaker 1 (12:05) ha and it's Speaker 2 (12:05) all just like chill and relax and then someone is like Speaker 1 (12:07) meticulously like doing it for the person reviewing it's like don't care Speaker 2 (12:11) You're both on a camera, both talking about logos. You're both design influencers. Shut the fuck up. And I hate that, but I can't control it. You know, I can only do what I think I can do here in the studio and with the content I put out is that I try and be as serious about the craft as I can, show my ideas and how they work. And ultimately it's always to attract the clients. It's never to try and get a brand deal, partnership or whatever. Speaker 1 (12:35) Do you know, I think there's an angle of it. as to the origin of like the origin story of the person because no one's ever gonna say oh Hugh Jackman's an Instagram influencer because he's got like 20 million followers on Instagram or however many he's got yeah he was he was famous bit from something else that therefore he got the attention on a different platform whereas if you're like start was on a platform then you kind of become well that's why you're famous because or you're you know known or whatever word you want to use you're known because of making content on social media therefore you have to be an influencer but then on saying that though you know there are studios that we both look up to i mean look at like centers podcast like they have a podcast they make yeah they make content but they're they do they get called influencers no because they're they're like a serious studio so it's like way because they started as a studio before they started as like a making content. So it might be that we've made a run for it. I think Speaker 2 (13:34) you Speaker 1 (13:34) have. I Speaker 2 (13:35) think it is. It comes down to the origin. If that's how I found you was through this way, then that's, you're in that camp to me. And I think it's very hard to get yourself out of that or convince other people that you're not that thing. And I'm trying that now. Like, I mean, I'm trying to scrub. scrub that instagram influencer shit off my skin i Speaker 1 (13:54) don't think it's ever going to go away i mean can can you understand why people would think you're an influencer yeah Speaker 2 (14:02) of Speaker 1 (14:02) course yeah Speaker 2 (14:03) i can i can see it yeah i get i i see it from the other side which is he's got this big instagram he jumps on his stories he's talking about stuff he's you know holding his phone up talking talking at the camera that's what influencers do like if you look at it from just surface level that's what that is so like you know, you're in that camp, whether you like it or not. I mean, like you get positioned, you know, you just do. And as much as I don't like it or it can make me feel uncomfortable sometimes, I've accepted it. And I just try and do the way I put my best foot forward in trying to be taken seriously as an actual designer, not a free, you know, a content creator. Like I really want to make sure that more for my clients, anything else is I don't, I want clients to take me seriously. I want like someone to look at me and go like, Oh no, like he's not. a fucking design influencer. I want to work with CJ, the designer. And obviously if I get positions that I'm an influencer, my worry is that I'm going to lose my clients or not get the clients that I really want to have here in the studio. And I only say that because I've heard of a scary story as well that has happened quite recently. And I won't name names out of just pure respect, but they basically were in a situation where they were going to potentially have a really serious job in a really serious studio. But they make content online around designing stuff and designing logos and their work. And they use Instagram in order to do that. And they do very well doing that. And after a long time of that happening and them doing it and going and jumping through all these hoops to get this really amazing opportunity in a fucking really well-known studio, they were let down and told that they were not going to have the position given to them because. they don't think that they could be able to commit to the role because of the activity online as so-called maybe an influencer or the fact that you're you know you spend a lot of time making content around this we're not sure whether you're right for here in the studio and i heard that and thought fuck that's a really scary story like that's a really serious opportunity being lost now because you're just being put in the camp of well you're an influencer or you're a content creator and so i then think about that for me of like Well, fuck, I don't want that. We're Speaker 1 (16:09)