The Man City Verdict That Changes Everything | Stick to Football EP 151

Stick to Football

Stick to Football reacts to Manchester City's guilty verdict in its Premier League financial case, with hosts and guests debating what it means for the club, players,

Key takeaways

• David Ornstein says The Athletic learned the verdict had been delivered to Manchester City and the Premier League before publishing after checks, right-of-reply, and due process.
• Paul Gilroy describes the appeal route as an appeal board under Premier League Section W, then possible arbitration under Section X, High Court challenge, and competition-law issues.

Main topics

• Manchester City guilty verdict
• Premier League financial fair play case

Notable quotes

It is one of the biggest stories in Premier League and football history.

Conclusion

The episode offers a detailed breakdown of Manchester City's verdict, the likely legal

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) U.S. voters abroad, have you got your ballot yet? All states are now sending ballots to overseas voters. So if you want to vote this year, you should request your ballot right away. Go to votefromabroad.org and click request my ballot. Ask to receive it by email. Questions? Ask our support team directly. Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. Votefromabroad.org. Speaker 4 (0:25) What's that flavor again? Cinnamon. No. Is it? No. Apple. No. Speaker 4 (0:34) What's the new flavour everyone has? Oh, my God, I love it. You've got an ice cream now. Speaker 5 (0:39) Pistachio. Speaker 4 (0:40) Pistachio. When did pistachio come out? Do you know what I mean? When did pistachio come out? It's everywhere now, though, isn't it? Did anyone hear of pistachio when you were a kid? Pistachio ice cream now is Speaker 5 (0:52) just unbelievable. Do you know what's pistachio? Do you know what's made it quite, I think, famous in the last few years? Do you know what Dubai chocolate? Have you ever tried it? Anything Speaker 4 (1:00) pistachio now is just Speaker 5 (1:01) unbelievable. Have Speaker 4 (1:01) you Speaker 5 (1:01) had the chocolate, though, Speaker 4 (1:02) with that... Why does it have to be from Dubai? No, that's the name of it. It's called Dubai chocolate. Oh. I get the bites from Marks and Spencer's on the train. What bites? Pistachio bites? Yeah, like pistachio in the middle of the chocolate. Like the Dubai chocolate. Why does it have to be... I don't Speaker 5 (1:18) know, Speaker 8 (1:18) that's Speaker 5 (1:18) what it's called. I'm just saying that because he said it. If you're going to Marks and Spencer's for chocolate, you've just got to get the giant buns. Speaker 5 (1:25) The Speaker 4 (1:25) giant milk buttons. Kieran, is there a podcast financial fair play? Is there an FFP of podcasts? Can you Speaker 5 (1:31) imagine that? Speaker 4 (1:32) To be Speaker 5 (1:32) able to afford Kieran, we need to... Exactly. Who has the most staff? Speaker 4 (1:36) I'd hate to have to Speaker 5 (1:37) do that. Would you say... I mean, Super League was massive. Would you say this is bigger? Speaker 4 (1:43) Yeah, I think this is going to linger for longer. Speaker 4 (1:46) because Super League was a thing that happened it was all over quick boom boom boom this has just gone on for that long and I think it's going to go on really long because they're not backing down hardly the owners at all they're not being they're almost doubling down aren't they well they Speaker 5 (2:00) are publicly you wonder behind the scenes whether they would be trying to get a deal done that's Speaker 5 (2:07) Everyone thought they'd get off. We all thought, I thought, I Speaker 4 (2:09) thought they'd get like 52 or 36 or something. I was convinced they were always guilty of it. But I just didn't see how the Premier League would beat them. In the legal side? This goes out anyway, this bit, doesn't it? I'll save this for the show. You don't have to save it for the show. No, but I just couldn't see the Premier League beating them. From a legal perspective? Yeah, I just didn't think they'd tangle them up. The lawyers, they'd have the money, they'd keep throwing at it. Speaker 5 (2:37) I thought the most bizarre thing was City's statement saying that they've got irrefutable evidence. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. That basically it's not right. I had to Speaker 4 (2:45) watch it twice. Yeah. I watched that interview. You've just been found guilty sometimes. Speaker 1 (2:49) Do it before the guilty. It was a bit Trump-esque, wasn't it? Yes, a bit like... It was Trump. It was like, oh, my God. I thought it made him look more guilty, if anything, doing that video. Oh, my God. Yeah. Speaker 5 (3:05) It's a shocker for the Premier League. It's a shocker. You think of all the games you watched over those years with that team and Speaker 4 (3:10) how Speaker 5 (3:13) brilliant that team is and was. Some Speaker 4 (3:15) of the best players Speaker 5 (3:16) you've ever Speaker 4 (3:16) seen. Speaker 5 (3:16) And you just think you're watching that all the way through. Speaker 6 (3:21) You have to walk in like this when you get an episode like this. Speaker 8 (3:25) We're Speaker 6 (3:25) not there, are we? No. Speaker 5 (3:26) Here's our jury. Whoa! What's this? Here's the case for the defence. Speaker 7 (3:42) I need to be rocky today. Only joking, Jim. Oh, God. Speaker 5 (3:47) What's this on here? Is this everything, Gal, on here? I just thought for the first time you might want some of the stuff in front of you. You might not, but... Speaker 7 (3:54) Gary rang us and I was like, do you want us to sit this one out? He's like, no. I said, you've got a lot of people coming on. Are you an Speaker 8 (4:02) ambassador for City? Speaker 7 (4:04) No, I'm not an ambassador. Were Speaker 8 (4:06) you ever an ambassador for Speaker 7 (4:07) City? Er, Speaker 6 (4:08) no. Nice colours and different colours. I'm going to take this home with me. You never got no payment. No, Speaker 4 (4:13) this could be taken as evidence. When you stop playing, you never got paid once by them. Speaker 7 (4:17) She Speaker 4 (4:18) was commercial director between 2009 and 2018. Speaker 8 (4:22) No, Speaker 7 (4:23) I didn't. Obviously, I got paid off them when I played. Speaker 8 (4:27) She's hesitating on every answer. No, I'm not. I'm actually not. You haven't got to worry. I've done nothing wrong. I can visit you. Speaker 7 (4:34) For God's sake. Speaker 8 (4:39) Send you cake with it, mate. Speaker 7 (4:41) Yeah, you wouldn't... You'd never come and visit us. I'm busy, of course I'm busy. I visit a lot of people in prison. No, but my thoughts are, it is sad for football and it's sad for the club, isn't it? It affects so many people this week. Which Speaker 4 (4:57) club? Speaker 7 (4:57) City or Speaker 4 (4:58) the other club? No, Speaker 7 (4:58) I mean for City in terms of everybody who probably works at the club, like who this week are probably worried about jobs. That's Speaker 6 (5:07) the sad side of Speaker 7 (5:08) it, but Speaker 6 (5:08) them owners don't care about them people. They don't care about anything like that. Speaker 7 (5:12) What could they have done? Speaker 6 (5:14) Jill. Speaker 7 (5:14) But a club, this is what I mean, like in weeks like this, and we've got to remember there's going to be an appeal as well, but like it affects so many people, doesn't it? And every time I've turned to you. Speaker 4 (5:26) Jill, Speaker 7 (5:26) come on. Speaker 4 (5:27) I'll push our appeal. Oh Speaker 6 (5:30) my Speaker 4 (5:30) God, Speaker 8 (5:30) there's an appeal. There is an appeal. That's what I should say. Speaker 8 (5:37) It was just a stalling tactic. Thank Speaker 6 (5:39) you. The thing is with the appeal, the appeal is just another way for them to try and see if they can find a loophole to get out of the charges that they've been found guilty of. It's not like they go to an appeal and they say, yep, you're right, you didn't Speaker 1 (5:52) do Speaker 6 (5:52) it, so go back to normal. They're going to go and try and find a way to kick it further in the grass. Speaker 7 (5:58) But is there a chance that it could... that the appeal could work. There must be, else there wouldn't be a pay limit. Do you believe Speaker 4 (6:04) the city people when they're talking? When you see the owner come out, because you're part of the city, you've got that affiliation with them. Do you believe what he's saying? Speaker 7 (6:12) Well, I think for, when a club means a lot to you, like on a... personal level it does mean a lot for me like it was the reason I got to play professional football you know what I mean it gave me I didn't think my dream existed and this club did that so it does mean a lot so it's hard to speak about it so I think when this Premier League statement come out the club then comes out straight away and says look we are innocent and I think because of affiliation to the club then you want to believe that like if you think if it was Liverpool exactly Speaker 4 (6:41) your football club is like your family isn't it it's like You want to believe and you want it to be true so much, don't you? Yeah. Speaker 7 (6:49) Yeah. So Speaker 4 (6:50) I get that. Yeah. Feel for them. Speaker 5 (7:00) David, thanks for coming on. Obviously, there's only one story dominating the headlines this week and you did an incredible job last Friday along with The Athletic in breaking that story. Thank you. Just want to take you back. When did you first get the call? When did you first get the message that this was happening and you must have been... I mean, jumping around at that point, trying to sort of validate the story. Speaker 2 (7:21) Yeah, exactly. So we've had many false thorns in this process, haven't we? With people thinking a verdict was coming. I remember to spring, around April time, 2025, there was a feeling inside City, people we were speaking to there were suggesting we're getting the verdict soon. That's what we've been told. And I think Pep Guardiola said within the next couple of months at one point, he said that on the record. Speaker 2 (7:46) But on Thursday night, my colleague at The Athletic, Matt Slater, sent a message into our group saying a contact of his had said, like the beacons, that this is happening, that the verdict has been delivered to Manchester City and to the Premier League. That had to happen at the same time. When you say Premier League, you mean all the other clubs or just the Premier League? To the Premier League. They're the two parties in this dispute. But it emerged, I think the first place I saw it was on the BBC. Dale Johnson reported that the clubs had been notified by the Premier League. They had had to sign NDAs, very strict requirements. And then that would give them access to a document to read the summary of the findings. So, you know, by the time... Matt had alerted us and we at The Athletic start making our checks, speaking to contacts and sources. Into Friday, when I was over at the Portugal Football Summit in Lisbon, I had a speaking commitment over there about the transfer window and actually how we work, the process journalistically to do this sort of thing. And I got a call when I was on stage from one of the many people I had tried to get hold of to understand what was going on. At that moment, I didn't know what they were calling back about. But then when I got off stage, I made a number of calls. And always with these things, whether it's a transfer story, a new contract, an injury, ownership-related things, people talk. A lot of people know what's going on, whether they've signed NDAs or not. Word spreads. And I didn't actually work as hard on this to get the information than I have on quite a lot of other stories because, I mean, it's been going on for so long. And I think there was probably a sense of relief that there was some kind of step forward in the process, maybe at all ends, City, Premier League, other clubs. And so, yeah, you perform your checks, balances. Speaker 2 (9:48) corroborate, you make sure you've scrutinised your sources. I happened to be over there with our editor-in-chief, Laura Williamson, and therefore she was all over me in terms of making sure I had followed due process, because you don't want to get this one wrong of all of the stories out there. But actually, it's the same sort of methodical procedure that you would apply to any story in this case. It just happens to have been more high profile. And then when you feel comfortable, with all of your various information. You speak to the two parties, Manchester City, Premier League, to give them a right of reply. City provided a statement. The Premier League said nothing, no comment. And then you have to have the courage to push the button and go with it and then hope you're right. How long was it between that call? You released it, what, five o'clock was it, on Friday? Yeah, there or Speaker 5 (10:40) thereabouts. That moment from Thursday evening when you get the initial... We've got the virtue. You've heard that 114, that 115. What takes the time? Is it just the actual validation of the story for that next, well, effectively nearly 20 hours? Speaker 2 (10:54) Well, it was just that the verdict had been delivered, was Matt's information, to the parties. And so you've got to try and understand... When did you hear Speaker 5 (11:01) the first that they were guilty of all charges? Speaker 2 (11:03) When I came off stage at the Portugal Football Summit on Friday lunchtime. OK. So I'm making lots of checks. And within that period, colleagues are too, and I'm sure other organisations, judging by how quickly some of the newspapers and broadcasters published after we went, we weren't the only ones privy to this and working on it. And at any moment, like with any story, it can come out elsewhere and you sort of win some, lose some. That's the nature of the beast. But so my role was to try and first understand if Matt's information on it being delivered was true. And then if it is, which it was, what the news is, what the verdict is. Have City been cleared? Have City been found guilty? And then what have they been found guilty of? And you make so many different checks. to try and sort of triangulate all your information. And these are very trusted relationships that have been built up over many, many years to try and get to the point where you've got as little doubt as possible that you've got a sufficient picture to be able to go with it at this point. And although we learned so much more when the actual verdict was published by the Premier League, we had a clear direction of travel on Friday. What was City's response when you first rang them? Speaker 2 (12:21) It's just a standard procedure. I've got good relationships with all of these clubs and it goes back many years across so many different stories and you know each other personally in most of these cases. And so, as ever, they were quite calm and professional. There's not much they could have said because they're bound by confidentiality. So there was a short statement issued by a spokesperson and that was it. It was sort of a... cordial conversation, short, no detail, but also it's very rare that you get shouting matches and things like that unless there's something fundamentally wrong or you've stepped out of line. And similar with the Premier League, just dealt with it in the normal way. They didn't want to say anything. Speaker 4 (13:08) But if you were wrong with that story, when you're saying there's no shouting matches, there's not a lot they can say, but if it wasn't true, they'd deny it. It's basically the fact that they don't deny it tells you, right, this is true. I can go with this. But Speaker 7 (13:19) they Speaker 4 (13:19) said Speaker 7 (13:19) innocent, didn't they? Is that not them, like, in their statement, saying that they're innocent, is that not them denying it? Speaker 2 (13:28) They believe they're innocent, but that doesn't change the verdict, that they've been found guilty. So I think in that sort of situation, I don't think they could have... because of the confidentiality. So I had to be very careful just because it wasn't denied or confirmed. I can't assume. I have to rely on the strength of my sourcing, not on their response. Now, I could guess that, like with many stories, depending on the strength of your relationship with the communications director or press officer, that they might, in a transfer story or something like that, say you're along the wrong lines here. Maybe they would have done that in this case. I've got no idea. That's me speculating. I'd hazard a guess that they just couldn't say anything. But the fact that I was given a statement and there was no kind of animosity and I was so sure, you can't really go to these people. If you're not sure of your information, because they're not there to help you. There may be in some cases, if you're trying to set up an interview or something like that, or you might have a better relationship with some clubs. It's a bit less sensitive. They want some information out there. They're a bit more talkative. There's no rules in this sort of relationship. But on that case, I just, I really needed to notify them. that it was coming. And then it's up to them how they respond. Speaker 8 (15:01) I know you're professional, but are you getting the buzz off this then as well? Are you like players going to a big game? Are you thinking, this is huge? This is huge. Are you still trying to be like, let's report it properly and don't make any mistakes? Speaker 2 (15:14) The integrity that I pride myself on and it runs through my veins has taught me to... go through the process as opposed to get excited or start sort of buzzing about, you know, what you might be about to do. It's about getting it right. And you don't want to make a mistake because, you know, going through my head is if I get it wrong, it could break my career or I'd be mortified if something wasn't accurate. In my industry, you don't get everything spot on, but... You try and do everything within your power too. But yeah, of course, I'd be lying if I didn't say there's more tension with this, for sure, because it's the one everybody's been waiting Speaker 6 (15:56) for. Speaker 2 (15:56) It's the Speaker 6 (15:57) big game, isn't it? It's a massive game. It's Speaker 2 (15:58) the big game, but it's not about the journalist. It's very kind of people to talk about that. It Speaker 6 (16:05) is the Speaker 2 (16:05) biggest Speaker 5 (16:05) story you'll have ever reported in your life. I know you've done a lot of big stories, but this is the biggest I would imagine by... This is a huge story. It's one of the biggest stories in Premier League and football history. Speaker 2 (16:14) It is, and you're aware of that, but that just guides my diligence in terms of making sure you go through the steps and get it right. And I promise you, those steps, even though there's not like a script or a syllabus or a magic potion, you do tend to follow similar procedure, whether you're dealing with something in the Conference League or in the Premier League, and even to this extent. And I just want to... So very quickly on that, I don't take pleasure from one of the sorriest episodes in English European world football history. I'm not getting an exhilaration from a club being found guilty of industrial level cheating, which they still deny. The fan base that will be in pieces as a result of this. former players and staff and executives, many of whom I know at that club and others, who are at the height of their game. Man City have appointed and brought through so many good people, professionals, players. The industry is full of former Manchester City and CFG executives, players, coaches, staff members, you name it, on the men's and women's side. And so I... I don't... But, David, Speaker 5 (17:35) you also don't have to explain that. Let's be clear, you're a journalist. We have a free press in this country and your job is to basically bring stories to us of this nature. If we stop bringing stories of this nature forward, then, to be honest with you, we're in real trouble. So my view is accepting the fact that there are obviously people involved in this. You did absolutely everything that you needed to do and you don't have to, obviously, to be fair, apologise to anybody. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+. Speaker 6 (18:05) Hi, friends and fellow students. Americans living abroad can legally vote in the U.S. election. Register or get tailored support at VoteFromAbroad.org. Look, state deadlines are super close, so don't waste another second. Go to VoteFromAbroad.org now and click Request My Ballot and ask to receive it by email. All you got to do is fill it out and send it back in. Don't miss this chance to shape the future. Don't delay. VoteFromAbroad.org. Speaker 5 (18:33) What is the noise coming out of the other clubs? I'm not going to name any clubs, but the Premier League clubs that you'll be speaking to right now. Are they smelling blood? And do they want their pound of flesh? Or are they got any compassion or empathy or sympathy? Where is the mindset of the other Premier League clubs right now? Speaker 2 (18:54) Yeah, just quickly on your last point, very concise answer. I'm governed by impartiality. So irrespective of the relationships that you're talking about and whether you feel good about people, you've just got to do your job. And Manchester City and the other clubs know that. And that's why actually the process was probably... quite cordial because I've done it for my whole career. And this was in the public's interest. I was getting a lot of stick and abuse from Manchester City fans saying, whoever called you up and leaked it, it wasn't a leak as such. I don't regard it as a leak. You may have a different definition of what a leak is. I think I uncovered it and followed due process to perform a really important piece of journalism. Interestingly, I've had no complaints from anybody involved. The only complaints and stick have come from social media because there's a lot of emotion and people being upset. In terms of other clubs, so immediately when the story came out, you got a lot of, wow, shock, didn't see this coming today, the extent of it, or the actual verdict, thought they would be innocent or whatever. And then when you start talking to... people around the game, clubs, governing bodies, on all sides of this. There was a little bit, especially among those who feel they've been wronged as a result of... Competing clubs. Yeah, competing clubs. But if you think about the ramifications, it doesn't just go to competing clubs. There's individuals, players who have had their careers changed as a result of this. There are executives. What do Speaker 1 (20:32) you Speaker 2 (20:32) mean by that? There are players who will have dreamed of qualifying for the Champions League and never played in the Champions League as a result of finishing behind Manchester City in this period. There'll be managers who lost their job, places like Liverpool and teams that got relegated. We've all been talking about this for days. So some of that was celebratory, actually, among those that feel they've been cheated and that they knew this all along in their mind. Manchester City were banged to rights in their view and that they have just been desperate for the process to vindicate what they were aware of throughout. And that's why some time ago, I think it was Man United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool, served notice, reserved their rights to take legal action if and when a guilty conclusion materialises to the tune of sort of 200. I think it was in potential legal action. Each or between them? Each, from what we heard at the time. So Speaker 5 (21:34) four Speaker 2 (21:34) clubs have Speaker 5 (21:35) got legal notices served on Manchester City for £200 million each. That Speaker 2 (21:38) was pretty much what was reported at the time. And then fast forward to Friday, plenty of conversations I had suggested it won't just be the top teams, it's going to be lower teams too, who are now revving up the engines. They had already appointed... lawyers to work on this situation. And there will be ambulance chasers too. But there are also credible situations developing at clubs, clubs speaking to each other, talk of potential class action where they unite to try and do something that we've never seen in English, European, world football, or probably sport as a whole. We don't know that will happen. Manchester City protest and plead their innocence. They say that they will... be vindicated and that they've got this irrefutable body of evidence. But if there is legal action to be taken, it won't come until after sanctions and appeals. So we're quite a way off from that now. But they do intend. And I wonder if individuals do as well. I don't know. But if this. goes against Manchester City at the very end, it opens up a gamut of possibilities that you can't even get your head around. And if you see in Italy with Calciopoli, there's still debates and legal action going on 20 years later that hasn't been resolved. That doesn't mean the football doesn't continue. It has in Italy, and Juventus are back in the top flight, and so it will continue here. But it doesn't mean that beneath the surface there won't be ructions for many years to come. Speaker 6 (23:08) So it's a slam dunk for lawyers then, really, by the looks of things. They're the ones where you're saying, the journalists thinking, this is my big thing. The lawyers, this is the lawyers' big thing, right? This is the one. This is one where they're all going to just come out and it's going to go on for years. I Speaker 5 (23:21) think, David, you'll know the number, maybe. The Premier League have spent how much on lawyers in the last 12 to 18 months, two years? It's over £100 million, isn't it? It's something stupid. Speaker 2 (23:29) Yeah, exactly. It's been remarkable spend. And so, therefore, you know, Premier League is made off of its members. The Premier League doesn't have the money. It's the members, the clubs. providing that resource, and that has been spent to a mind-blowing level, and I don't think it's in anybody's interest to continue that for much longer, but Manchester City clearly are going to fight until the bitter end. So if you thought the legal fees were done now, you'd be mistaken. Will there Speaker 4 (23:57) ever be an end to this? So it's just going to go... I was watching it last night when I was seeing the city owners, and of course they have the right to... defend themselves they have the right to appear like everybody does in the country if you're getting charged with something but it just feels to me when I listen to the language of the people at the top of the city it's a bit like this is never going to go away and they're just going to they're going to dig the