Asher Perlman Drinks Salt Everyday

So True with Caleb Hearon

Caleb Hearon and guest Asher Perlman engage in a wide-ranging, comedic conversation that moves from their shared history in improv theater to

Key takeaways

• Asher recalls his intense emotional reaction to not being placed on a Herald team at iO Chicago.
• Caleb expresses an aversion to holding power because of the anxiety caused by editorial oversight.

Main topics

• Improv Theater
• Power Dynamics

Notable quotes

The experience is your life.

Conclusion

A chaotic and humorous exploration of finding joy in the small, often

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Wave. Yeah, I don't think bad. I don't think bad. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think Speaker 1 (0:07) bad either. Speaker 3 (0:08) No bad. Maybe good. Speaker 1 (0:10) Maybe good. Are you getting stressed out talking about this? No. I was thinking about it the whole time anyways, so now that you brought it up. Speaker 3 (0:22) Asher. Speaker 1 (0:22) Caleb. What's going on, brother? Nothing much. How you feeling? I'm feeling good. You know what's so funny? On the way over here, I was trying to remember when we met, if it was in Chicago or New York for the first time, and I remembered my first memory of you. This better be Speaker 3 (0:37) nice. Speaker 1 (0:38) It can be mean. It's Speaker 3 (0:39) super Speaker 1 (0:39) mean. Is it really? No, it's not. No, but I don't remember if we met or if I just... Do you Speaker 3 (0:44) remember? No. You Speaker 1 (0:46) don't remember? No. Speaker 3 (0:47) I'm bad at this, though. It's not. I am, Speaker 1 (0:49) too. And so this could be, like, fully the fourth time that we had encountered each other. But I was walking through I.O. And you were sitting in one of the tables with some friends. Okay. And I was walking with someone. And he said, that's Caleb. He's with Future. Speaker 3 (1:08) Who said that? Speaker 1 (1:10) I think it was John Sabine. I'm going to send him a check. John, your check's in the mail. He called it. That's really funny. I think it was He's the Future. It was something like that. I was like, damn, yeah, okay, that's cool. And then, I mean. Tough look for the future. If this is what we've got to look forward to. If this is the future, I feel good about it. If this is what we've got to look forward to. I feel good about this. Speaker 3 (1:29) That's really funny. I fucking loved hanging out at I.O. Every day hanging out at I.O. to me felt like. I mean, I moved there right after college. And I just felt like. Everybody was so brilliant and fun. I didn't feel any of the like... I think there were people who's experienced... And I want to know what yours was. I think there were people who's experienced that I.O. was like, oh, everyone's getting spots and I'm not... And I was just like, I think this is so fucking fun. Speaker 1 (1:52) I loved it. I also think that half of your listeners just turned it off. They were like, oh, they're going to talk about... Improv? They're going to be Speaker 3 (1:58) comparing Speaker 1 (1:58) their experiences at Speaker 3 (1:59) one of the improv theaters in Chicago. But I loved it. Asher, they turned the episode off when they saw that you were a straight man. Honestly fair. I'll tell you that right now. That's totally fair. They saw the thumbnail and said, ah, pass. Speaker 1 (2:11) They knew it from the thumbnail. Do Speaker 3 (2:12) you think you present as gay in any way or shape or form? Well, I'm not gonna, I don't know. You have good style. You have nice glasses, but there's an energy that radiates from your eyes that says this is a heterosexual ally. And Speaker 1 (2:23) you think the energy reads in a thumbnail? Oh, it's gonna read in the thumbnail. The thumbnail, they're like, they see, wow. They're gonna see the Speaker 3 (2:29) thumbnail and they're gonna go, oh God, a straight guy again? I hate when Kilo does this. It's probably all about football. Worse, it's about improv. Speaker 1 (2:38) But we get really into, like, who played on what team. When, like, different Herald teams got cut. Let's Speaker 3 (2:44) go. Let's do it. Well, you know, the only drama I experienced at IO, Asher, was that I didn't get placed on the Herald team made out of my class. Speaker 1 (2:53) I mean, this is obviously. Speaker 1 (2:56) On them. Like, this is like whoever was on the Herald Commission at that time. Speaker 3 (3:00) Well, there turned out to be a reason for it, but they didn't, you know, they play little games. They didn't tell me that they were, there was someone leaving a veteran team and they wanted to put me on there. Oh. Speaker 1 (3:07) But he didn't know Speaker 3 (3:08) when he was leaving town. Oh. So for like seven months with no explanation, I just wasn't on a Herald team. And I will say, I was not cool or mature. I was very pissed. I was very pissed. I was like, everything I've done for this fucking theater. I had a weekly show. I was pissed. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? How did you find out? Speaker 1 (3:26) Was it months later? Speaker 3 (3:28) It was eventually. I think I was so mean about it. I was so mad. I think eventually somebody from the Herald Commission took me to lunch and was like, hey, we have a plan. Will you stop? Speaker 1 (3:40) But also, that's not an idea that is on them. I think consistently people in power don't realize how much people... Not in power are hanging on their every decision and every word and how important it is. I think that everyone in power needs to appreciate how much people read into every little thing they do. Speaker 3 (3:57) I think also it's like I interned, you know, the internship at IO is that you go work like a seven hour shift once a week, every week that you're in classes. And I never missed a shift and you don't get paid money. You get free classes, which is like more valuable. It's totally more valuable. It's worth its weight in gold. But that's why I was really pissed. I was like, I never missed a fucking shift at this theater and you can't even like pity put me on a team. Wow. Mad. Okay, whose word Speaker 1 (4:22) are you hanging on? Who in power has, who has control over you right now? Whoever's in power at any given moment. I'm just saying, I think that if you have power, everyone's like watching you. They're like, Speaker 3 (4:32) they're Speaker 1 (4:33) like, Speaker 3 (4:33) they're hanging on every, like you're the, you're the king. Like I think, you know, like everyone's like. It's hard. Speaker 3 (4:39) Everyone here, Speaker 1 (4:40) everyone in this room is watching your every move right now. Asher, I would give Speaker 3 (4:43) anything to have people in this room who respected me or cared what I thought. You are looking at a group of people who they Speaker 1 (4:50) don't think about my needs once in a year. Okay, well, you're lucky. You're lucky. I'm saying. Speaker 3 (4:54) Hey, I don't have to worry about having yes men. I'll tell you that fucking much. Yeah, that's very good. That's lucky. I got a bunch of fucking no girls. Speaker 3 (5:03) All of them fully laughing at you. Yeah, because they know it's true. They're getting away with fucking murder. They get paid too well to treat me too bad. I'm a massively put-upon figure in history, and the books will reflect. What's your relationship to power? Speaker 1 (5:18) You know, actually, I have an answer for that. I think I don't like it. Really? Having it? Speaker 3 (5:23) I don't Speaker 1 (5:23) like having it. Wow. Speaker 3 (5:24) I don't like Speaker 1 (5:24) having it. Wow. Why? I think because I second-guess so many things. Speaker 3 (5:31) And Speaker 1 (5:32) I think a precondition for handling power well is sort of like proceeding with confidence. And I don't think I do that. Really? Why not? I feel like you're confident. You feel like a confident person or just with power? I think if you give me control, like, this is slightly different. But like when I did my, well, I don't want to talk. Speaker 3 (5:53) Come on, Speaker 1 (5:53) do it. Don't Speaker 3 (5:55) be Speaker 1 (5:55) scared. I'll speak more generally. I did a project once. Speaker 3 (5:58) And Speaker 1 (5:59) the person in power basically was like, do whatever you want. And I was like, this is horrible. Because now I have no. I need editorial oversight here. I don't want to tell you this is the way it's going to go. And it was very destabilizing for me. Speaker 3 (6:15) Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:16) But that's how it went. Did it go badly? I think it went well, actually. Okay. But the experience of it was really hard. I was having a lot of anxiety during it. Because I was like, this can't all be on my shoulders. What is there but the experience? Speaker 1 (6:33) What is it about the experience? No, there Speaker 3 (6:35) is only the experience is what I'm saying. If the experience was hell and the outcome is great, who cares? Speaker 1 (6:38) Yeah. Fuck that. I completely agree. I think that 10 or 15 years ago, I would have disagreed. At this point, I'm fully on board with that. Well, the experience is your life. Speaker 3 (6:47) Yes. If all your days of a thing were bad, and then at the end, you're like, oh, but it turned out great. It's like, that sucks. I hate that. I don't have a bad time. Speaker 1 (6:56) I used to want to be a part of, if you had said, the product is. Great, but the people that you're working with are kind of lousy. I would have been like that's fine But like we're making something important Yeah, Speaker 3 (7:09) and Speaker 1 (7:09) now if you told me the product is like fully mid but you're with people you really love spending time with I'm like I'm sorry. I'll sign the contract. Speaker 3 (7:16) That's the show put me Speaker 1 (7:17) on Speaker 3 (7:17) Podcasts that's so true podcast. No, this is both. That's Speaker 1 (7:23) the beauty. I would die Speaker 3 (7:23) for these losers This is both and this show sucks I wish the quality of the product was good. It's bad, but I love these people with my whole heart. I would die for them. Michelle won't look up from her Speaker 1 (7:35) laptop. Anna's kind of on her phone. No, I would die for them too. Speaker 3 (7:38) Yeah, I could feel that. And they would die for you. They actually probably care more about what you want and need. Actually, for sure, they care more about your wants and needs than mine. And I Speaker 1 (7:44) actually like Speaker 3 (7:45) that. I think that's good. Speaker 1 (7:46) You think they care more about what my wants and needs? 100%. Absolutely not. Speaker 3 (7:50) Right now, if I said, someone get me a coffee, it wouldn't happen. I've asked Michelle for a coffee before, and she won't bring me one. Oh. which is crazy because she's my assistant. Speaker 1 (7:57) But if you right now Speaker 3 (7:58) were Speaker 1 (7:58) like Speaker 3 (7:58) coffee, she'd be like, yes, sir. Michelle Speaker 1 (8:00) emailed me last night and said, do you want a coffee tomorrow? And did you get one? I didn't get one. You didn't? I didn't get one. How often do people take you up on the coffee order? All the time. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Really, Speaker 3 (8:12) Asher, you've missed out on this opportunity, but what I want to tell you is anytime you come around here in the future, take us for all we're worth. Really? I'm dead serious. Take some of those snacks home. Get a coffee anytime someone asks. If there's ever a lunch order, like, throw it in. Speaker 1 (8:27) I mean, I almost grabbed a Celsius, but I thought that was too much. You're drinking Speaker 3 (8:31) that Speaker 1 (8:31) stuff? I have drank that stuff. That's why I didn't reach for it. Yeah. Because I'm trying to stop. I don't drink that stuff. I think it's killing us. It's bad. I think in five years, there's going to be something called Celsius kidneys or something. Yeah. And, like, we don't know what it is. I've Speaker 2 (8:44) got Speaker 1 (8:44) Celsius lungs. It really is. I think it's, like, it's too good. Something else is happening. It's not just, like, well, there's caffeine in it. Speaker 2 (8:52) Because Speaker 1 (8:53) if you Google it, it's like, well, it is 200 milligrams. It's like a grande coffee from Starbucks says 300 or whatever. That's not what's happening. It's going to cost. Speaker 3 (9:01) Let me ask you this. Do you know how you feel at any time? Speaker 1 (9:06) Wait, wait, wait. Do you know your Speaker 3 (9:07) feelings? Do you feel like you know your feelings? Like, are you able to be like, I don't, let me know. Do you know your feelings? This is a Speaker 1 (9:14) good question. I want to know why you're asking, but first let me answer it. Oh, Speaker 3 (9:17) no, no. First, let me tell you why I'm asking. Okay. Because that's great. That'll give you time to formulate. You were talking about Celsius. I don't drink Celsius or like energy drinks because part of what, like when people are like, oh, I'm so tired. I go get over it. But I think that only works for me because maybe I don't know how I'm feeling a lot of the time. Do Speaker 1 (9:36) you know what I'm saying? You're saying you're unaware of the fact that you're tired, which allows you to get over it? Kind of, I think. Oh, okay, in that case, now that you've given some context, I think I'm very aware of it. You know your feelings. I think I'm very aware. Speaker 3 (9:49) You know your feelings. Can Speaker 1 (9:50) I tell you what I thought you were going to say? Because this is my experience on Celsius. Speaker 3 (9:53) Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:53) I think it kind of makes me unaware of my feelings. Because it's like your, I've never done like meth or something, but I feel like that's what it feels like. Celsius is numbing you out? It like, well, I just feel completely untethered. Really? I'm like on the moon. Wait, have you ever had one? No, Speaker 3 (10:10) and now I'm like, I had no idea what was going on. Nicole's nodding. Speaker 1 (10:13) You should drink one right now. And 10 minutes from now, tell me if what I'm saying is true. It shouldn't be legal. What is just caffeine right? No, I'm telling you it's not I mean, yes, that's what they would say But no, I don't think it I mean if you had it I'm on one right now. Oh, how Speaker 2 (10:30) do you feel? Do you Speaker 1 (10:30) feel on the Speaker 2 (10:31) moon on one? I feel like I'm living in 40. Speaker 1 (10:34) He's Speaker 3 (10:34) on Celsius. Oh, Speaker 1 (10:36) I did not know it was like this for you You had it in here. That's Speaker 2 (10:38) how Speaker 1 (10:38) you know, it's bad because you're on it. You're on it. Take it. Yeah, you don't drink it. You take it Yeah, you receive treatment. Yes, exactly. It's administered to you by you. I think that's fucking Speaker 3 (10:47) crazy The Speaker 1 (10:48) first time I had when I was like this is unlike anything I've ever felt Speaker 3 (10:51) I never could have imagined that you would talk like this about Celsius. I've heard people like Monster or Red Bull or whatever, but I had no clue that Speaker 1 (11:00) Celsius was like this. Those don't do it. I think there's something about this new class of energy drink. It's like actual poison. It's like that machine in Princess Bride that takes years off your life. That's happening every time you drink a single one. It's like two minutes are gone. Speaker 3 (11:15) Do you know what I will say? As the world comes to an end pretty swiftly soon, we do have some of the best products we've ever had. Speaker 1 (11:23) It's funny that I'm saying they're selling poison that's killing us, and you're like, fully? Great product. Speaker 3 (11:28) How sick is it that you can put a feeling like that in a bottle? That is amazing. You want that for the end times. You know what I mean? It's killing you. Don't worry. Those two years, we're not going to make it to the point where those matter. Right. Those Speaker 1 (11:37) are irrelevant. Speaker 3 (11:38) Just so you know, those years were never coming. Those years were a mirage Speaker 1 (11:41) in the desert Speaker 3 (11:41) that you were grasping towards. In the meantime, let's have Popeye's fried chicken, and let's have... Celsius, let's feel like we're on the moon. Let's be really fucking numbed out. Let's get weed to a place where basically if you take any amount more than five milligrams, you're in extreme danger. Let's get to that place. Let's green out. Let's numb out. Let's feel fucking good on the way out. Speaker 1 (12:04) Fully, fully. I mean that. Yeah. You Speaker 3 (12:06) can't get customer service anymore, Speaker 1 (12:07) but the products, when they're good, they're good. I just do think, I think I'm going to get an email from, like, you know, like you never know if it's a scam or something, but it's like. Here's your unique code if you want to participate in the class action lawsuit. You'll get a part of the money. I'm going to get like a thousand of those emails for every receipt Speaker 3 (12:24) from Speaker 1 (12:25) Celsius. They're going to find you and you're going to get some fucking serious payback. But Speaker 3 (12:28) it's Speaker 1 (12:28) going to be after the... Oh Speaker 3 (12:30) yeah, the food system is going to collapse soon. The climate's in a really bad place. So what I'm saying is right now, best case, we should have like triple cheeseburgers. We should have like drinks that make you feel like you're on the moon. We should be city biking everywhere. That's my own personal agenda. Does Speaker 1 (12:44) that make you feel great? City biking? Yeah. Oh, brother, you have no idea what you've done. Speaker 3 (12:49) You have, asking me this, you have no idea the can of worms that you've opened. City biking is the most magical thing. First of all, if anyone can hear me out there, move to New York City and ride your city bike everywhere. I city biked home in the rain last night, 45 Speaker 1 (13:02) minutes. Do you know what I felt? Elation. And you think, just so I understand, you're talking about city biking specifically or just biking? No, on your own bike, it's a little fine. You can have your own bike. No, no, I'm just trying to understand what you, because I do bike, but I have my own bike. You have your own bike, yeah. Right now, I'm like, am I missing something by not riding city? You are. Speaker 3 (13:23) I am. Yes, you're gaining a Speaker 1 (13:24) lot. But I'm like heavy and stuff, right? Yeah, Speaker 3 (13:26) you're gaining a lot by having your own bike. But let me tell you what you're missing. Let me tell you exactly what you're missing. You go to the station. There's a bike there you didn't know if there would be. First of all, that's surprise. That's excitement. Speaker 1 (13:36) With your own Speaker 3 (13:37) bike, you Speaker 1 (13:37) always know it's there. Yeah, yeah. This is like the gambler's mind is excited by this. The gambler's mind is excited by this. Speaker 3 (13:42) But let me tell you even something a little bit more special. Okay. Last night, when you pass other city bikers and they're on a city bike too, there's a brotherhood and a spiritual connection there that the average biker cannot understand, I'm afraid to tell you. You see another biker and you maybe go, oh, we're both on bikes. To both be on city bikes is such a commitment to the lifestyle. Last night. And I hope these girls hear this. I'm biking over the Manhattan Bridge at like 2.30 in the morning. It's raining. Okay. I'm pretty fucking soaked. I can kind of barely see, to be honest, because my glasses got all wet. Speaker 1 (14:11) I feel you. Speaker 3 (14:12) I got my headphones in. But they're open ears, so you can hear everything around you. Don't worry. I'm not being scary. I'm biking over the bridge, right? Two girls biking towards me, also soaking wet, drenched from the rain. And when they get about five feet out from me, they go, yeah! And I go, yeah! We pass, we may never see each other again. Had they been on regular bikes, there's no chance we'd connect like that. That Speaker 1 (14:33) is beautiful. It's Speaker 3 (14:34) the magic of the city bike. The city bike has infused both of us in the city itself, or does the city infuse the bike? It's a symbiotic relationship wherein the city, the bike itself, and the driver are all receiving a sort of magical energy that we've only tapped into via participating with the city bike. Speaker 1 (14:53) Wow. And are you doing the e-assist, or are you doing the non-e-assist? I Speaker 3 (14:57) think you Speaker 1 (14:57) know Speaker 3 (14:57) that I'm on the e-bike. Speaker 1 (15:02) It's Speaker 3 (15:02) very sweet of you to ask. I think you know I'm walking five extra blocks to the next station to get the e-bike. Speaker 1 (15:10) No, I didn't know that. I just wasn't sure because I feel like non-e-city bikes are so heavy and hard to maneuver. Those are tough. Speaker 3 (15:19) I've dealt with those. I don't enjoy it as much, but to me it's like the e-bike part of the magic comes from the pedal assist. Speaker 1 (15:28) Yeah. I mean, I used whatever Chicago's version of that is last time I was there. Oh, Speaker 3 (15:32) yeah. And I Speaker 1 (15:33) took the Greenway Trail, which is that trail that goes east-west in Chicago. Divvy. Divvy. Yes, divvy. Yes, I divvied. Oh, yeah. And I did an e-assist divvy. Did you feel the magic? I felt like I was on the moon. It's that and Celsius and e-assist bikes. Those are Speaker 3 (15:47) the things. Dude, I'm telling you, the feeling I get from e-biking over a bridge in New York is more than weed. I assume pretty close to meth. Speaker 1 (15:57) I've never done meth. I haven't either. Speaker 3 (15:59) And I feel like I'm getting to a place where if I practice enough gratitude and focus enough, I could get it almost to a feeling of heroin. I really believe that. Wow. I Speaker 1 (16:07) really believe that. People who do meth and heroin are listening to this being like, what are you talking about? They're idiots. They don't know how beautiful life can be. That's true. I actually, one time, oh my Speaker 3 (16:17) God. Sorry to the heroin community. If you're doing heroin, you're probably obviously in a pretty tough place, and I want to say, I send you love. Maybe try e-biking. For as much as I talk about the city bikes, they don't hit me up. Speaker 1 (16:27) Oh, they could be like a sponsor. They Speaker 3 (16:29) could at least say thank you. Yeah. They don't hit me up. They don't say anything to me. Speaker 1 (16:32) Wait, you have sponsors, but are Speaker 3 (16:34) they Speaker 1 (16:35) from, do you find them or is like the network say this is your sponsor? Speaker 3 (16:40) It's a really convoluted process. Like it's not, it's never me going out and being like, would you like to advertise on the show? But I'm sure Wave is doing that, going out and being like, what about So True? See? This young man's got a bit of an audience. Yeah, I've got that wave Speaker 1 (16:53) is run by that guy. Yeah, that's cool. I like this podcast. You like Speaker 3 (16:58) this podcast. He's got guests. They're mostly friends. Spend your money. I don't know how it works, but I know that they send us options and we say yes when we feel like we can. Speaker 1 (17:08) Actually, one of my because I was thinking about what my so true would be. This isn't my so true. Don't bring it up yet. Don't know. It's not it. Okay, good. It's one of the ones I'm not doing good, but it is a so true, but it's not mine. That's like this. It's an old one. Tell Speaker 3 (17:19) me. Speaker 1 (17:19) Is that once you ask for advice from two people, you don't need a third. Yeah. Because I think what I will do is I'll get advice from someone. They'll tell me their take. And then I'm like, okay, interesting. I'll go to a second. I'll get their take. And maybe they'll agree. Maybe they won't. But either way, I want a third. Yeah. And at that point, I have to clock. I'm like, okay, this is not about seeking advice anymore. It's about a compulsion. Like, you need reassurance. Yeah. And that's not what you need to, like, sit with this now. I Speaker 3 (17:47) think after two pieces of advice, yeah, something else is going on. For sure. You're enjoying what this conundrum says about you or you're looking for, like you're using it as like a way to connect, which I don't think that's inherently bad, but there's something going on other than truly trying to get to the root of the problem. Speaker 1 (18:02) Yeah. Speaker 3 (18:02) Is your mom good at advice? Do you get good advice from her? Speaker 1 (18:05) So my mom is very good at being honest and direct. So like I had to make a decision, like an industry decision recently. Speaker 3 (18:13) And Speaker 1 (18:14) I asked her about it. And she said, I don't know your industry well enough to tell you what I think you should do. But you want to talk through what you're thinking. And that was, I thought that was nice. That was good. She sounds so cool. She's awesome. Speaker 3 (18:30) I love her. Are you guys tight? Speaker 1 (18:31) Very tight. Speaker 3 (18:32) Shout out. What's her name? Speaker 1 (18:33) Rachel Perlman. Speaker 3 (18:34) Rachel? Speaker 1 (18:35) Rachel, yeah. Speaker 3 (18:35) Rachel! What's up, girl? I love her. Some little lesbian in her life is going to get that back to her. Speaker 3 (18:42) Young lesbians who watch this show operate as sort of Speaker 1 (18:44) carrier pigeons for me. Really? Speaker 3 (18:47) Yeah. Someone will be on the show or like I'll be on a set and like it happened a lot last year when I was like filming a bunch that I was working with some actor who really wouldn't know who I am necessarily or why I should be in the movie other than maybe I was good for the role. And like the fourth day of set, they'll come and be like, okay, my niece says I have to tell you that she's a huge fan. And I go. what do her bangs look like? You know what I mean? And the answer is almost always blunt. You know what I mean? So that's kind of what lesbians are out there propagating the message for me.