Dame Zandra Rhodes

Rosebud with Gyles Brandreth

In this episode of Rosebud, host Giles Brandreth interviews iconic British fashion designer Dame Zandra Rhodes at her London penthouse. Rhodes reflects on her unconventional

Key takeaways

• Dame Zandra Rhodes credits her mother, Beatrice Ellen Twigg, an exotic pattern maker and seamstress, for instilling in her a fierce work ethic and artistic ambition that shaped her entire career.
• Rhodes broke into the American market after receiving a letter of introduction to Vogue editor Diana Vreeland, who immediately photographed her designs on Natalie Wood and secured orders from top boutiques like Henry Bendell.

Main topics

• Childhood and family dynamics
• Swinging Sixties London fashion scene

Notable quotes

"I'm the result of my mother's ambition."

Conclusion

The episode offers an intimate portrait of a fashion pioneer whose resilience, artistic vision,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Hello. Put the rest of the world on hold. Forget all the horror, forget the bad news, forget everything, and just welcome, for an hour or so, to the world of Rosebud. It's wonderful that you're here. Thanks for being here. I'm Giles Brandreth, and here's another very special episode. Cue the music. Speaker 2 (0:42) Hello, this is Giles Brandreth, and it's time for another episode of Rosebud. I'm talking to somebody I've known quite a while. I admire her hugely. She is, I think we can say this fairly reasonably, it's a word I hate using because it's so overused, but I think she is an iconic figure. When I tell you that she is a fashion designer and she has pink hair, you'll know, oh, it's going to be Zandra Rhodes. And it is. It's Dame Zandra Rhodes. She has just celebrated her 86th birthday, but, well, to me, she feels younger than springtime. She's known everybody, dressed everybody, I mean, literally, everybody from Diana, Princess of Wales, to Freddie Mercury. And she's somebody whose own story is remarkable, unusual, her beginnings, her life in the 50s, 60s, 70s. The names she's got to drop are amazing. I went to meet her at her incredible penthouse flat, which is above the Fashion and Textile Museum in London that she founded back in 2003. Her home is extraordinary. Her taste is both outrageous and yet it works. So, for an episode that's full of ambition, vision, determination and pink hair, I give you Dame Zandra Rhodes. on Rosebud. Cue the music. Speaker 2 (2:17) Zandra, before we begin, we're in this wonderful room. What is this room? Where are we? Speaker 1 (2:23) This is my rainbow penthouse, which is on the top of the Fashion and Textile Museum here near the Shard in Bermondsey. In Speaker 2 (2:34) London? Speaker 1 (2:35) In London. Speaker 2 (2:36) Have you always been a London person? I moved Speaker 1 (2:39) to London when I got into the Royal College in 1960 and I've lived in London ever since. You Speaker 2 (2:47) could have been in New York or Rio or Paris. Yes, I could have been, but I'm here in London. And you live here as well? Speaker 1 (2:56) This is actually my penthouse, which I use for having dinners round the round table. or for meetings like we are now. And then two floors below is my studio and my print room. My company, which I'm still in every day. Speaker 2 (3:12) Well, and I love having your company now. Thank you for Speaker 1 (3:15) coming. And Speaker 2 (3:15) this is Rosebud, and we always begin with the same initial question, and that is, let me make sure I've got the right person, Zandra Lindsay Rhodes? That's correct. Born 19th September 1940? Speaker 1 (3:28) That's it, yes. Speaker 2 (3:29) Zandra, is that... The baptismal name, the original name? Speaker 1 (3:33) Yes, my mother was going to call me Zandra with an X. And my grandmother said, well, no one will know how to pronounce it. So that's how I got to be Zandra. And Speaker 2 (3:42) where did you get the name from? I Speaker 1 (3:44) don't know. Maybe it was Alexander the Great. It could be. Speaker 1 (3:49) It was definitely a wonderful, unusual name. And when I was at school, it was always embarrassing because the teacher would make you stand up alphabetically and say your name. And I'd go, Sandra Rhodes. And she'd already written Sandra. And then you'd say with a Z and she'd have to either rub it out because they didn't have white out in those days. Speaker 2 (4:07) You know the Latin tag, nomen est omen? Speaker 1 (4:11) No, I don't. The Speaker 2 (4:12) name is all. The name is everything. Speaker 1 (4:14) Oh, well, I like that. I remember that. But Speaker 2 (4:17) also... Often people like you, who are unusual, have been blessed with having an unusual name. So were you from the get-go, conscious, I'm Zandra, that's special? Speaker 1 (4:28) I suppose subconsciously. I mean, it was pointed out once I stood up at school and then they always got it wrong, you know, when they did the register at the beginning of the year. Speaker 2 (4:39) And the Lindsay? Speaker 1 (4:41) I don't know where she chose that from, but... Speaker 2 (4:45) You had a name all your life, you have no idea. You're not some auntie, a granny? Speaker 1 (4:50) No, I didn't have a name. Speaker 2 (4:51) A Speaker 1 (4:51) family name? My grandmother was called... Actually, what was my grandmother's name? My mother's name is Beatrice, which was wonderful. I'm trying to think what my grandmother's name was. It wasn't Beatrice. No, it shows you what my memory's like now, doesn't it? Well, Speaker 2 (5:07) this bodes a bit worrying, given we're going on a trip down memory lane. Speaker 1 (5:11) Exactly. But let Speaker 2 (5:12) me take you back to your first memory, because our first question is always, precisely, what is your first memory in your head? Not from a picture you've seen, but in your mind's eye. Speaker 1 (5:24) I think being in a pram when it had been raining and smashing on the water that was... that would gather in the plastic bit. Speaker 2 (5:34) And where would this pram have been? Speaker 1 (5:37) We lived in Chatham, Kent, and in fact, I was born during an air raid, and my father had to go down the hill to the hospital, and she lost one of her shoes on the way, and it was pouring with rain, and there were probably doodle bugs going over the top. Speaker 2 (5:57) So she raced down with your father, they raced down together. To the hospital. To the Speaker 1 (6:01) hospital. Doodle bugs Speaker 2 (6:02) over, shoe being lost. Speaker 1 (6:04) That's it. Speaker 2 (6:04) Oh, we've got to get there. The rain is sleeting down. Speaker 1 (6:07) That's it. Very glamorous, isn't it? Speaker 2 (6:09) She gets in and you are born. Speaker 1 (6:11) I was born. That's it. Are you the Speaker 2 (6:13) firstborn of their children? Yes. Speaker 1 (6:15) Yes, I'm the firstborn of the two of Speaker 2 (6:17) us. Who are your parents? Give me your mother first. Speaker 1 (6:21) Beatrice Ellen Twigg. Speaker 2 (6:23) That Speaker 1 (6:24) was her original name, Twigg with two Gs. And my father was Albert James Rhodes. Speaker 2 (6:31) Very good. Good name. Strong name. Speaker 1 (6:34) Strong, yes. Speaker 2 (6:35) What was your mother like? Speaker 1 (6:38) Extremely exotic. And as a child, I used to feel, you know, when she came to a school open day, I thought she was probably far younger than all the other mothers. She'd have high-heeled green lizard shoes on and beautiful make-up with red lips and her hair cut in a swirl that she sprayed silver and looked very exotic. And I'd say, please, Mummy, don't come in looking so different from all the other mothers. But Speaker 2 (7:05) she did. Speaker 1 (7:06) But she did, and she looked wonderful. Speaker 2 (7:08) And how did she meet your father, and who was he? Speaker 1 (7:12) She met my father in ballroom dancing. And he was very handsome. He looked like Errol Flynn. And they were, at one point, Kent champions. And, of course, my mother could make wonderful dresses, ball gowns with lots of sequins, which in those days she would have sewn on all by herself. So she was a very exotic, wonderful woman. I think that my father just fell in love with her like that. But Speaker 2 (7:40) he was good-looking, so if he looked like Errol Flynn, did he behave like Errol Flynn? Speaker 1 (7:46) Well, they had a very strange relationship in the sense that probably, apart from the fact he looked and he danced well, of course, when he proposed to my mother, my grandfather wouldn't let her marry then because he thought she was sort of below, because he was, in fact, he was a lorry driver. Speaker 2 (8:12) And her father felt that wasn't good enough. Her Speaker 1 (8:15) father felt that wasn't right, and she didn't marry till after he died. Speaker 2 (8:20) Oh, my gosh. So they were wanting to be married in the 1930s? Speaker 1 (8:26) They were probably, yes, wanting to be married in the 1930s. And I'm not sure of the actual date, but they probably got married in the late 30s. Speaker 2 (8:34) Well, you were born in September 1940. They could well have been married a year before. That's often what happened. So I see them. On the dance floor, she with her sequined skirt, him looking extremely dashing. Did he have the Errol Flynn moustache? Speaker 1 (8:47) Yes, he had an Errol Flynn moustache. He did look very handsome. Speaker 2 (8:51) And did he do war service? Did he join up? Oh, yes, Speaker 1 (8:55) he was in Egypt during the war, just as an ordinary... As a soldier. Yes. Speaker 2 (9:00) Well, don't dismiss him as an ordinary soldier. We're jolly grateful that he was there doing his thing for us. So, what were they like together? Speaker 1 (9:09) What Speaker 2 (9:09) was their marriage like, do you think, from where you were? Speaker 1 (9:12) Oh. They were totally unsuitable, really and truly, but it was in that period of time when people would have stayed together anyway. Speaker 2 (9:25) So, in fact, your grandfather was probably right to say, don't do this. But on the other hand, it's Speaker 1 (9:31) formed me, so I think one just has to look at it in that context. And Speaker 2 (9:36) when Speaker 1 (9:36) you Speaker 2 (9:36) say they weren't right for each other, why weren't they right for each other? Speaker 1 (9:40) Well, my mother was an extremely exotic woman that he in a way looked up to and then she could do all these exotic things which whilst he felt proud of her, he wasn't really. Speaker 1 (9:57) able to step out of that level in a way. If you want to picture it really, our family was a bit like Elf Garnet in the comedy shows. Yes, I remember that. Where he's talking with his mouth full and children are horrible snobs. I think they are anyway and I think probably I was. My father would look all right if they were going to something, but we came from a home where people didn't, they weren't invited back to dinner like we would these days. Speaker 2 (10:29) So your mother felt that she was a cut above. Well, she was different. Speaker 1 (10:36) She was different. I don't mean she felt she was a cut above, but she was obviously the money earner. Not a lot, but she taught in the art college and she sat and made wedding dresses at home, which if my sister and I were good, we could sit and watch her do the fitting if we didn't quarrel with each other. Speaker 2 (10:55) And he continued. I mean, he looked very elegant on the dance floor, but by day he was a lorry driver. Speaker 1 (11:02) Yes, and he'd cycle to the dockyard and he'd be there all day. And then he was always, it was very funny because, you know, in a way, I can see how he really had his balls cut off, as you'd say, because, you know, I'd come home, my mother would be teaching and he'd come home from work and I'd walk back to home with my girlfriend Gillian and I'd say, can Gillian come to tea? And she'd go, no, she can't, she came last week. You know, and we could answer and say, well, Mummy pays for it, which is very... Speaker 2 (11:33) You did answer like that, did you? Speaker 1 (11:35) Yes, I've got backhanded for saying that, but... Well, Speaker 2 (11:40) maybe you deserved it. Speaker 2 (11:42) So what's your best memory of him, of your dad? Did you call him Dad? Speaker 1 (11:46) Daddy. Speaker 2 (11:47) Daddy. Speaker 1 (11:47) Called him Daddy. Oh, well, I mean, we used to have nice drives into the country and he also loved cycling. He'd go cycling and doing hill climbs and things and belonged to a cycling club. So we'd go out in our little Morris 8 or whatever and see him driving. doing that in the hill, and then we'd be collecting blackberries. So it was very nice sort of countryside, semi-countryside in Chatham in those days. Can Speaker 2 (12:19) you remember an intimate personal conversation with him ever? Speaker 1 (12:24) No. No. I mean, when I think about it now, particularly having done a book where I've been questioned about it, because I think I shut it out all my life. Whereas my sister, who's three years younger and has four children, they had a grandfather. So they would go and, you know what I mean, they'd go and see him because of the children. Whereas I went to college and wasn't really... associated that much. And then my mother died before she knew about what had happened with my career. Speaker 2 (13:04) So you lost your father in a sense? Speaker 1 (13:07) Yes, I vaguely see him, yes. Probably because I didn't have children, so there was no reason for a link. Speaker 2 (13:15) You were getting on with your career? Yes. And he wasn't very communicative? emotionally aware person. Speaker 1 (13:21) No, when he remarried a bit later, having met his very nice, sweet wife, and about four years after my mother died, he went back to ballroom dancing classes, and they'd come to my dress shows. So they saw my dress shows. Speaker 2 (13:39) So what age was your mother when she died? Speaker 1 (13:43) 1969 was my first trip to America. So my mother would have died in 1968 and left me 500 pounds. Speaker 2 (13:51) And you were only 28 then? Speaker 1 (13:53) I would have been 28, yes. Speaker 2 (13:55) By the time she died, did you feel you knew her well? Speaker 1 (13:59) Oh, I knew my mother very well, yes. And I'd try and go down there because it was during the last two years of her life because she was a chain smoker. and she then got myself down with my sister and sat right in front of us and said, I've got lung cancer and I've been given six months to live and I want you to make this the most wonderful six months of my life. So it was quite wonderful. Speaker 2 (14:28) And you really did. You did your best to do that, did you? I think we did Speaker 1 (14:31) our best, yes. And my sister, towards the end of her life, she moved to my sister and her husband's in Amersham. where they looked after her. And my father would just come and visit because she was really in bed the whole time. And Speaker 2 (14:44) did she remain an exotic personality throughout her life? Speaker 1 (14:47) Yes, she was always exotic. I mean, she always wore make-up and always looked lovely, yes. So Speaker 2 (14:56) really, the essence of what you are, you got from her. Speaker 1 (14:59) Oh, completely, yeah. I'm probably... Speaker 1 (15:04) the result of my mother's ambition. But I don't mean I felt that. You know, once when I said to my mother, if I'd have wanted to leave school at 16, you'd have let me. She said, no, I wouldn't. But she guided me. I think she guided me towards going to the art college where she taught for Saturday morning art classes. Unlike my sister, who worked in different factories, because she wanted to. I was never made to work. In the holidays, I'd go out sketching every day. I didn't. She never said, you should go out and earn any money. Speaker 2 (15:43) You were born at the beginning of the Second World War, 1940, you know, Britain's darkest hour. Do you have any recollections, really, of the war? Speaker 1 (15:52) only being held up to the sky and being told they were doodlebugs going over to London. Speaker 1 (16:02) Did it frighten you? Speaker 2 (16:04) I Speaker 1 (16:04) don't think you know fear as a child as such. And then there was an air-raid shelter in the garden and I can remember drawing chalk butterflies on it Speaker 2 (16:14) in Speaker 1 (16:14) the garden. But that's all I really remember. Oh, and I can remember sitting on the front gate and we were on the main A2 road by a bus stop and all the tanks going by as they were coming back from... the, you know, from the coast. Because Chatham's only, what, 20 miles from Dover. Speaker 2 (16:39) Do you remember the end of the war? A sense of... Speaker 1 (16:42) I remember sitting on my father's shoulders going down for VE Day with all the crowds out. I can remember that bit. Speaker 2 (16:51) And when your sister came along, did that please you? Did you get on with her? Speaker 1 (16:55) I've really only become really close to my sister in the last ten years, more than anything. But she married her childhood sweetheart at the age of, I think she must have been about 19, before they both came up to college and he studied to be a doctor and she was studying at a teaching college. Speaker 2 (17:20) And