Will Storr: How To Get Ahead At Work, The Workplace Games Nobody Talks About

re:WORKING with Tim Campbell

This episode features host Tim Campbell interviewing author Will Storr about the hidden dynamics of workplace status and storytelling. They explore

Key takeaways

• A study showed 70% of participants chose a higher-status job title over a pay raise, proving status is a stronger long-term motivator than money.
• Effective leaders act as 'status generating machines' by fostering fairness, avoiding nepotism, and creating 'competence space' for employees to make decisions.

Main topics

• Workplace status dynamics
• Evolutionary psychology of cooperation

Notable quotes

Status is utterly crucial to the world of work. I mean, the world of work is a big status game.

Conclusion

The episode equips listeners with an evolutionary and psychological framework to navigate

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Status is utterly crucial to the world of work. I mean, the world of work is a big status game. That's what it is. Speaker 1 (0:05) You're an award-winning British author, investigative journalist, but you're known for two key aspects around storytelling and status. You Speaker 2 (0:12) think of it as the need to get money and get rich, but it's not that. At its core, it's about adding value. There was one study where people were offered a pay rise or higher status job title and 70 % opted for the higher status. Job title. So when we do something that is of value to other people, automatically other people respond to us by offering a status. They go, God, that was good. They give you respect. Speaker 1 (0:33) How does that play out in the world of work? That's the trap people can fall into, I suppose. I've achieved this, Speaker 2 (0:37) that and the other in my past and that means that you should respect me. That is not how it works. Speaker 1 (0:40) How do you think people should be using storytelling to increase their value and their enjoyment at work? It's really important Speaker 2 (0:47) that we have an optimistic kind of positive story about ourselves and our work. When you see yourself as a victim, what that does is it absolves you of blame for doing stuff wrong. But what it also does is it takes away your agency. So Speaker 1 (0:58) do you think that status and happiness are not compatible? Speaker 2 (1:02) My name is Will Storr and today I'm reworking with Tim Campbell. How do you get ahead at work and win the workplace games that no one talks about? Speaker 1 (1:18) This is Reworking and I'm Tim Campbell, helping you answer the questions that really matter to you about work and finding the ideas, advice and experiences that mean you can succeed on your own terms. Now, I can't lie, I'm excited to share today's episode with you. The guy got me feeling like he'd explained part of the matrix to me and I came out of it understanding the way that we can recognise and leverage status to get where we want to be at work and even beyond that in our personal and everyday lives. This episode is all about how you can get ahead by learning to play and win the games that we all know are there, but nobody ever talks about. We're speaking with Will Storr, an award-winning British author and investigative journalist who's an expert in two things, status and storytelling. Maybe you've not thought about either in your career, but Will's here to explain why they make up the fundamentals of how we interact with everyone around us. Honestly, this conversation is like a cheat code. Don't miss it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the chat, so if anything resonates with you, let me know in the comments. Speaker 1 (2:24) Will, thank you so much for being here. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How Speaker 2 (2:27) are Speaker 1 (2:27) you doing, Tim? I'm alive and well, right? So this is the great part. But lots of the people watching know you for a number of different things. You're an award-winning British author, investigative journalist, but you're known for two key aspects around storytelling and status. It's good to be given the S. Deliteration helps me, if you remember, right? So it's good. In terms of the thing that our guests really want to talk to our audience about is about how does that play out in the world of work? So please explain the idea around status and how that can be relevant for people in the world of work. Speaker 2 (2:56) Well, status is utterly crucial to the world of work. I mean, the world of work is a big status game. That's what it is. And to understand why it's important, you've kind of got to understand the role it plays in human life and human evolution. Speaker 1 (3:10) So Speaker 2 (3:10) we humans are a species of ape. Like we're not like an ape or evolved from the apes. We are an ape. But obviously we're a kind of weird kind of, we're not like the other apes. We're pretty much... We're a bit cleverer. We're a bit cleverer, exactly. We're advanced. We've taken over the world. And Speaker 1 (3:23) less hairy. Speaker 2 (3:24) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the reason for that is that we've mastered the art of cooperation. So humans are kind of part ape, part bee. We kind of are apes, but we act more like bees. We work together and we solve the problems of survival, not as individuals, but as members of highly cooperative groups. So that's how we've managed to kind of become so successful. We work on our own. We work in groups too. Now, in order to get us to work in those cooperative groups and solve problems in those cooperative groups, evolution wants us to do two things. And so all humans universally have two really, really powerful, immensely important drives. And the first drive is for connection. So nature wants us to be... accepted into groups whether that's a you know a partnership a marriage a friendship group or a work group you know a an organization you know a group of colleagues a tribe you know if you want to think of it that way so that's the first thing we want to feel belonging and accepted yeah and so we all want that and you know that's universal and we all dread the opposite of that which is ostracization social rejection it's a horrible feeling we've all been through Speaker 1 (4:32) it And it's horrible because that's what nature wants us to be connected. Completely opposite of what we want. Speaker 2 (4:37) Yeah, yeah. So that's what people kind of generally know about human beings. We like being loved. We like to love and be loved. All you need is love, said the Beatles. They did. Yeah, but they were wrong because it's not just all about love. We also want something else. So nature wants us to be part of these cooperative groups, but we can't just be part of them. We've got to add value to them. We've got to pull our way. We've got to offer them something. So the second thing all humans want. is to be um have that sense of being valued like like that sense of i'm valuable to you i'm valuable to the group to the organization yeah and and so that's what status is so when we do something that is of value to other people um automatically other people respond to us by offering a status they go god that was good they give you respect and so we need that as human beings and so so that's the lifeblood of um all organizations you join an organization at the bottom You want to win the respect of your peers, your bosses, the people on the same desk as you. Speaker 1 (5:32) And Speaker 2 (5:33) that's life. That's work. That's what kind of powers you on through those dark times. Speaker 1 (5:37) So we've got the idea of the concept. Yeah. It's based on the age old thing that we need each other in order. And the synergy of our relationships is really good. But obviously people find it quite difficult to navigate that kind of dynamic. Usually when they're at different levels, if they don't feel they have power in those scenarios or they can't direct the outcomes that they sometimes want. So how do people, one, truly understand the power dynamics in the workplace and how do they leverage those? Speaker 2 (6:06) Well, I think the first thing is to understand. Speaker 2 (6:11) basic concept of what status is. So we think of status sometimes as the need for power. We think of it as the need to get money and get rich. But it's not that. At its core, it's about adding value. It's about offering value. And I think understanding that is really important, just having that change of focus away from... What can I get? Yeah. To what am I offering? Yeah. You know, and that's quite a significant mind shift because, you know, when you're offering value to the organization, when you're offering value to your colleagues, you're automatically going to get the rewards. So I think that's a really important kind of basic principle to understand. The other thing that's really sort of very tricky in human groups is that there is a big taboo against. Speaker 2 (7:00) going for status. So nobody wants to admit, I'm interested in status, even though it's true. You've just got to look around the world. Everybody is. Everybody wants to be valued. Nobody wants to be humiliated, disrespected. But no one wants to admit it. But no one wants to admit it. And that's because evolutionarily speaking, status is a resource, a bit like food. Nobody wants to be seen as greedy, grabbing all the food. Nobody wants to be seen as greedy for status either. And also status is kind of relative. So the more status one person has, the more status another person has. So if somebody sort of walks into a room, demanding status, that's a red flag to people. People have this instinct to want to pull them down. And when anthropologists even look at hunter-gatherer groups, these very pre-modern groups, universally, pretty much, they have these... things where they pull people down there's one um inuit group um from northern canada where they they're recorded if if a guy comes in playing the big man after a hunt they'll stand in a circle around this guy and sing what they call a song of derision in his face to pull him down so so so that's that's one of the important things about navigating it is like one of the core principles about status in human groups is status is offered by other people You don't demand it. And the moment you demand it, you're going to get backs up and people are going to want to be motivated to pull you down. Speaker 1 (8:14) So you've got to not admit you want it, but still you're still pursuing it. So how do you do it on a practical level? Because somebody who's just starting work to come out of university, for example, they've got a lovely degree certificate, they run into the office and they're really proud of it because their mum and dad are obviously proud of them. They take it into the world of work. How do they deal with that status or adding or contributing value? Speaker 2 (8:35) It's really difficult. I mean, I was reminded the other day of when I was a young man and I was just before I'd written any books and I was trying to get an agent, a literary agent. And so what they say is that if you want to get a literary agent, find out all the authors that you like, find out who their agents are and write to them. So I did. And there's an article, John Ronson, I used to be a big fan of when I was a young man. And so I found his agent and I emailed them. And I'd been a journalist for about... a year I think and I'd won this award I won this new journalist of the year award it's a big deal um and and I emailed them and said I've won this award and and and the assistant who got the email forwarded it to the agent but accidentally beat cc'd me in in it and and the comment was this guy sounds like a bit of a dick and and I was absolutely crushed I was so embarrassed but then also I was thinking but what am I supposed to do like I'm trying to get an agent and I've and I've won this award and so that means like I'm trying to get spotted so so is it's Speaker 1 (9:32) a Speaker 2 (9:32) really it's a really really difficult thing and obviously I got it a bit wrong but I still now as a 51 year old man think what was I supposed to do I Speaker 1 (9:39) struggle with because we employ huge amounts of people in different industry sectors and we take graduates particularly who are very very smart they're rewarded and recognised for how brilliant their brains were But when they come into the world of work, that's not always the thing that gets them the most amount of value. It's the interpersonal relationships. It's the other elements they may not have been taught or have a certificate for that actually get them on. Is that part of the whole status proposition? Speaker 2 (10:06) Yeah, definitely. And I think we can get hung up on the things like the degrees, the awards, this, that, and the other. What really matters, again, you know, always going back to that adding value, you can sit around the table with somebody and they come up with a great idea and suddenly you respect that person. They could have just walked in with their first day at work and, wow. you Speaker 1 (10:22) know, they've gone up in your estimation. Speaker 2 (10:24) And so that's the game really, you know, like, and I think that's the trap people can fall into, I suppose, is that they see that I've achieved this, that and the other in my past. And that means that you should respect me. And that is not how it works. You know, you've got to, you've kind of got to be adding that, you've got to be, you know, adding that value to the group, you know, all the time. And that's the way that you'll rise up the group. Speaker 1 (10:47) Okay, then put your hat. on the other side of the discussion, you're the employer, you're setting up an organisation. Yeah. You understand that this status thing is very important and people can have Speaker 2 (10:56) it. Speaker 1 (10:56) Yeah. How do you construct an organisation which becomes a bit more egalitarian but is focused on the status of individuals within it? Speaker 2 (11:03) Well, there's a few different things that you need to do. And I think for leaders, you know, one of the big things is to understand that your job as a leader is to be a status generating machine. That's what you are. You're there to generate status for the organization and for the people within it. And if you fail to do that. You're not going to be a leader for very long. And that's not just about being fired by the board or whatever. That's also about having the respect of the people underneath you. Like if you walk into that organization and you say, this is my plan to win against our competitors and to, you know, build the status of our organization, which trickles down to individuals. Everyone loves to be part of the organization that's winning. they're going to respect you. They're going to admire you. They're going to, you know, they're going to give you the status, but if your plan doesn't work, so that's the main thing is that's your job. You're a status generating machine. But in terms of creating a functional and healthy status game within the organization, there are a few sort of, there are a few kind of important principles. One of the big ones is that you want to have that, you know, you're talking about. Fairness and unfairness. There has to be the perception of fairness in the organization. The moment it feels like status is rewarded on who's mates with the right and wrong people or who's the right face and the wrong face. Nepotism, etc. Exactly. You're going to get toxicity. You're going to get people pulling back and sort of de-identifying with the organization. So that perception of fairness. I think you need a culture in which status is... freely awarded and it's encouraged. And so, you know, in a toxic organisation, people are very, where people are scared of being admonished, fired, they become possessive and they hoard their status. And so that means they stop giving it to other people and they start sort of being... scrappy about that was my idea. No, that was my idea. In the worst cases, you get a company like Enron who end up breaking the law because they're so, you know, they get so desperate. And a final really important principle for employees is creating what I call competence space. Speaker 1 (13:10) Okay. So Speaker 2 (13:10) competence space is the idea that you have to give people the space to make their own decisions. Because if I'm going into work, I want to show you. Yep. that I'm smart, that I'm strategic, and I'm this, that, and the other. In order to do that, I need to have space to make my own decisions. And I think really horrible jobs are ones where you have a very strict, you know, list of things you have to do by this time, and you don't have space to make your own decisions. You become like a robot. And when psychologists look at this, they even find it's important for people who are, you know, cleaning in hospitals. Don't tell them exactly what to do. Give them some freedom. Give them some freedom, and then let them make their own decisions. And even that has a huge... on people's satisfaction with their jobs because they feel like they've got space to show who they are. Speaker 1 (13:54) Yeah, Speaker 2 (13:55) and space to say, look, I made a great decision. And someone goes, ah, it's amazing what you've been doing there. That's a great idea, you know. Speaker 1 (14:01) And they can be recognised for it. Yeah. I suppose the challenge is that in a capitalist environment, it's about who's going to win, who's going to run fastest. But you're then on this other side saying that the best environments work when there is some fairness or the perception of fairness, at least. How do they sit together, though? Speaker 2 (14:19) Well, I mean, I think we've got this sort of weird thing where competition sometimes is seen as a bad thing, but it can also be a positive thing depending on how that kind of status game is played. And if you're in a work environment where status is freely awarded, where somebody relatively junior can be sitting around a conference table with the boss and say something, and it's a great thing, and the boss goes, that was... Brilliant, Lisa. Amazing. Then, you know, and Lisa can go out of that room feeling like the king of the world, then that's a good culture. And so, you know, and I think it's that idea of, you know, I think it's quite dated, that kind of idea of capitalism as this kind of red, you know, tooth and claw fight to survive the fittest thing. Zero sum game. We're a cooperative animal and an organisation is a cooperative group. And if everybody... does their bit and adds value to the group, the group wins. I mean, that's one of the other principles of status in human groups is we play for status on two levels. There's individual status, there's me versus you, but there's also group status. So when Apple wins against Microsoft or whoever it is, then everybody at Apple feels great. And so everybody wins if every individual plays their part and adds the value they ought to be. And Speaker 1 (15:34) those other organisations then have aspirations about trying to get back to that. So it engenders more competition. So I definitely agree competition. If you're within the organisation, you have often said that status can be more valuable than money. Yeah. But people are exchanging their time and their value for money within that system. what's your framing of why you think status is more important than value? Speaker 2 (15:57) Well, because that's how people respond. Like there was one study where people were offered a pay rise or a higher status job title and 70 % opted for the higher status job title. You know, we have evolved to crave status. Money hasn't been around long enough to affect the wiring of our brains. You know, so money is a proxy for status. Money is a symbol of status. But actually money is a very bad motivator. So money is a good short-term motivator. It's what psychologists find. So if you offer somebody a pay rise, or if you