The Staten Island Problem - Part 1: The Mayor vs. the Borough President

Revisionist History

This episode explores the 1990s secession movement in Staten Island, framing it as a microcosm of America's growing political polarization. It details the tense

Key takeaways

• Mayor David Dinkins envisioned NYC as a 'gorgeous mosaic' of diversity but struggled with the city's deep ethnic segregation and rising crime rates in the late 1980s.
• Staten Island pushed for secession after decades of being treated as the 'Forgotten Borough,' heavily burdened by hosting Fresh Kills, the world's largest landfill at the time.

Main topics

• Staten Island secession movement
• David Dinkins vs. Guy Molinari

Notable quotes

"I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York."

Conclusion

The episode uses the Staten Island crisis as a historical parable, illustrating how

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:01) The headlines never stop, and it's harder than ever to tell what's real, what matters, and what's just noise. That's where Pod Save America comes in. I'm Tommy Vitor, and every week I'm joined by fellow former Obama aides Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Dan Pfeiffer to break down the biggest stories, unpack what they mean for the future of our democracy, and add just enough humor to stay sane along the way. You'll also hear honest, in-depth conversations with big voices in politics, media, and culture like Speaker 4 (0:30) Listen wherever you get your podcasts, watch on YouTube, or subscribe on Apple Podcasts for ad-free episodes. Speaker 6 (0:38) Ben, Natif Haffer here. Before we Speaker 2 (0:40) get into this episode, I wanted to let you know that you can hear all episodes of Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem, ad-free right now by signing up for Pushkin Plus. You'll also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, and other binges from your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Plus, your support helps independent shows like us continue making the stories you love. Sign up and save on the Revisionist History show page on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm slash plus. Use the code RH25 for 25 % off an annual subscription. Speaker 2 (1:13) Alright, let's get into the series. Speaker 1 (1:17) A while back, my colleague Benadaph Hafri came to me with a story about a strange little island that no outsider ever visits. Forgotten, overlooked, reached by boat across an expanse of turbulent water, where the locals practice their own unique customs, engage in their own strange variety of politics, and where, incredibly, everything that is happening currently in America already happened long ago. Speaker 1 (1:48) Staten Island. Speaker 1 (1:51) And so today we bring you a new series, The Staten Island Problem. In it, Ben is going to take us back in time to the 1990s, when a young real estate scion named Donald Trump was chasing models in downtown nightclubs, when the subways were covered in graffiti, and when the homicide epidemic was at its peak. And Staten Island decided, enough already. Speaker 1 (2:14) Ben will share what he's discovered deep in the distant corners of New York's archives and tell the story of a civil war within the five boroughs, a secessionist movement, the rise of Rudy Giuliani, the Wu-Tang Clan, and ultimately, a parable for what we're all living through right now. How a country that thought it was united comes apart. What was it Ernest Hemingway once said of bankruptcy? It happens two ways, gradually. And then suddenly... I promise you that at every turn in this bizarre story, you will say to yourself, I didn't know that. And then, oh, that's how we got to where we are today. Speaker 1 (2:57) This is the first of what will be five episodes. You can expect new ones in your feed every week, or you can subscribe to Pushkin Plus and binge the whole series right now. Speaker 1 (3:09) Over to Ben. Speaker 1 (3:12) Let Speaker 6 (3:12) me say up top that I am not from Staten Island, though many people I spoke to for this series seem to think I am. I'm from Boston, but when I was a kid, I used to dream about moving to New York. I used to watch Fantasia 2000 all the time. Well, actually, just this one sequence about New York City set to George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. It opens as the clarinet plays that iconic do-do-do-do-do-do. And a pencil draws in the skyline of New York City. The whole thing is just romantic and idealized and hyperkinetic. I fell in love with the idea of this place. I used to draw that skyline. I used to ride my bike around with a tape player bungeed to the rack, listening to Gershwin, thinking about my first apartment, where I'd live, what I'd do. Speaker 6 (4:00) Who cares that the cartoon was set in the Great Depression? I was a total doofus. But in all my reveries, I never thought about the Speaker 2 (4:09) most remote part of New York City. Staten Island. Speaker 2 (4:15) New York is made up of five boroughs, each of which is like its own little city. Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, where I live now. And then the farthest away and smallest, at least by population, Staten Island. And as I've come to learn, Staten Island is a kind of uncomfortable fact of New York City. It's the butt of the joke, always. I mean, listen to this recent Speaker 6 (4:37) mayoral debate. Speaker 8 (4:38) I'll start with you, Ms. Adams. Which borough have you spent the least amount of time in? Staten Island. Mr. Cuomo. I would say Staten Island. Mr. Lander. Speaker 1 (4:49) Staten Island. Speaker 8 (4:50) Mr. Mamdani. Uh-oh. The beacon of free transit. Staten Island. Mr. Myrie. I'd say Staten Island. Mr. Stringer. I've been doing this. I've been everywhere. Mr. Telson? It was almost a sweep. Speaker 2 (5:04) I learned about Staten Island after I first moved to New York City. That summer, some friends invited me to a Staten Island Yankees game, their old minor league baseball team. When I looked up how to get there, I learned that I would have to take a subway to a ferry, Speaker 6 (5:19) a literal ship. I got on board. There was a bar, huge windows, a 25, 30 minute ride where you see the Statue of Liberty out the right side. And then you just keep going. The New York City skyline recedes into the distance. And then you land in a place that just is not New York City. Speaker 6 (5:46) New York City is all shoebox apartments. Staten Island is single-family homes. New York Speaker 2 (5:52) City is liberal. Staten Island is conservative. New York City at large is mostly people of color. Staten Island is mostly white. New York City is defined by its subway. Staten Island has a single dinky Speaker 6 (6:04) railway, and everyone drives a car anyways. New York are words that convey prestige and power the world over. The center of finance, the center of media, the largest city in the country, the kind of place George Gershwin rhapsodizes. Meanwhile, a member of the College of Staten Island Board of Trustees told me he once suggested they drop Staten Island from the name of the college because it made people take it less seriously. Speaker 6 (6:32) Once, Staten Island was supposed to get the world's largest Ferris wheel. It did not. It was supposed to get connected to New York's subway once. They broke ground on a tunnel, and that Speaker 2 (6:42) was the end of it. For all these reasons and more, Staten Island calls itself the Forgotten Borough. The least beloved, the most ignored. It was once the place where New York City put most of its trash, literally the largest landfill on the planet. But starting in the late 1980s, Staten Island had decided it didn't want to be dumped on anymore. It didn't want to be forgotten anymore. So it began a movement to secede from New York City, leave, do its own thing, become an entirely different place. Something that, if it happened, threatened to destroy New York. Speaker 2 (7:25) So why am I telling you this? Because it all seems so familiar to me. Every political arrangement includes some disgruntled minority, someone or some place that feels left out, forgotten, like they don't matter. I think that problem is at the very heart of what's going on in our country today. So I began to investigate the Staten Island problem. Speaker 6 (7:52) You're listening to Revisionist History. I'm Ben Natafafri, and this is our series about an overlooked and misunderstood movement in the 1990s to break up the largest and greatest city in the country. Speaker 2 (8:04) This summer, the United States is celebrating the anniversary of its founding by an act of secession, a quibble over taxes and representation that defied an empire and created a country which has altered the course of human history. All of which is to say, I think it's the right time to ask, what do you do when that democracy looks like it's about to fall apart? Speaker 2 (8:29) This is the Staten Island Problem. Episode 1. The Mayor vs. the Borough President. Speaker 2 (8:44) To start, I've got to take you back in time to the New York City of long ago. Speaker 1 (8:50) When I moved here for the Washington Post, I got, um, I got hardship pay. Really? Yeah. Like, it was a— Compared to Washington, D.C.? Yes! I got a special cost of living allowance, which was essentially like— Take a cab. —compensation for the fact I was going to a hellhole. Local reporter Malcolm Gladwell was on the scene in that era. I was at the Washington Post, and I had been there since 86, 97. And, uh— The New York Bureau. I had an opening. The bureau chief was leaving. And I applied. As it turns out, I was the only person who Speaker 6 (9:28) applied. How many people worked at the Washington Speaker 1 (9:30) Post? Probably a thousand reporters. Nobody wanted the job. Speaker 2 (9:34) The only Speaker 1 (9:34) person who wanted to be the bureau chief of New York City? Nobody but me wanted the job. It was the sweetest setup in the world. You had like, you know, a credit card. You could put anything you wanted on it. You had like... an assistant. You had a lovely office in the Newsweek building. I don't know why, but I was like, I want that job. Such a good job. So much fun. But no, the perception