Lord of the Rings' With Joanna Robinson

Recipe Club

Hosts David Chang and Chris Ying welcome Tolkien expert Joanna Robinson to explore the culinary landscape of Middle-earth. The group discuss

Key takeaways

Joanna Robinson has read the entire Tolkien legendarium, including The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
The hosts argue that good characters in Tolkien's work are defined by their hospitality and sharing of food.

Main topics

Lord of the Rings Gastronomy
Tolkien Legendarium

Notable quotes

I feel thin, stretched, like butter scraped over too . . . too much bread.

Conclusion

A delightful and nerdy exploration of how culinary details add depth t

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:06) PETA, Melon, Amino. Meloc. We're finally doing it. And that was elvish for those wondering, the very few people that knew what we were talking about. This is the day we've been waiting for. We're going to be going deep into the gastronomic universe of Lord of the Rings, directed by Peter Jackson, based on the great books by J.R.R. Tolkien. And we're joined with... Joanna Robinson. Correct. Speaker 1 (0:36) The Speaker 3 (0:36) ringer universe of House of R. And now she is joining us because we need help. Speaker 2 (0:42) We needed a literal ringer to help us have this conversation. To guide you through Middle Earth? Yes. To VR. To VR. Take Speaker 1 (0:48) you Speaker 2 (0:48) all the Speaker 1 (0:48) way to Mordor? Okay. I'll do it. Speaker 3 (0:51) Joining with Chris Yang. I'm Dave Chang. And we're going to get into Lembas bread, some salt pork, and some chicken pork hamburgers that are not based. Just like Sam had. Speaker 1 (1:05) But Speaker 3 (1:05) I'm going to land this play. Let's get into it. Speaker 2 (1:08) This episode of Recipe Club is presented to you by olive oils from Spain. Welcome to a world of flavor. Pull up a chair and discover the recipes, traditions, and centuries of craft behind every golden drop. From two-hour lunches to dinners at midnight when Spain is at the table, it's something to experience. So the next time you're reaching for extra virgin olive oil, reach for Spain. Taste the flavor of a country all on a drop. Learn more at oliveoilsfromspain.org slash all in a drop. Speaker 3 (1:48) Joanna, part of House of R, Prestige Podcast. You're a guest on many of the Ringer growing network as well. I Speaker 1 (1:55) mean, Speaker 3 (1:55) we all Speaker 1 (1:55) like to hang out on each other's podcasts. We're all pals. Speaker 3 (1:58) Formerly Vanity Fair. Correct. How long have you been into token? Speaker 1 (2:04) Since college, I guess, which is, I think, a little later than some people come to it. But I... I always feel some kind of way about telling the story, but I was dating a guy who was really, really into Lord of the Rings. And so then I got really into Lord of the Rings and that's how it started. Was Speaker 2 (2:19) there hesitation about that? Were you like, because you weren't into it and you met a guy who was really into it. Wait Speaker 3 (2:25) a second here. Speaker 1 (2:26) Were Speaker 3 (2:27) you a trailblazer? Because I'm just trying to paint this picture. Were you really one of the first? people to date a Tolkien fan because this guy is a real trailblazer. I'm a little shocked here. I Speaker 2 (2:44) thought Speaker 3 (2:44) that it was a monastic order. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Speaker 2 (2:47) one Speaker 3 (2:47) of the main reasons why I chose to not. enter that face. Speaker 1 (2:51) Right. Because you thought it was either or. You didn't know you could date and read Tolkien. I didn't Speaker 2 (2:56) know you could like Tolkien without taking a vow of celibacy. Well, guess Speaker 1 (2:59) what, guys? You can have it all. But you met a day Speaker 2 (3:01) walker. Speaker 1 (3:02) I did, I did. I was really into other sort of nerdy universes like Star Wars or actually even a little Dungeons and Dragons which is way nerdier than Lord of the Rings. So this is sort of, but I hadn't read the books and that was that right after I started college is when the first Fellowship of the Ring came out. So it was like I was reading the books right before the movies came out and then it was all aboard, you know? Fantastic. How, Speaker 2 (3:28) so when we were talking about this before we got on, like in your position, you've got to be pretty expert at Tolkien, at Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Speaker 3 (3:40) Do you consider yourself an expert? I don't. Speaker 1 (3:42) I Speaker 3 (3:42) don't. I don't. I do not. What, like Speaker 2 (3:45) how? Mainly Speaker 3 (3:46) because I couldn't make the vow of celibacy. Speaker 2 (3:50) I guess the baseline question for... I love the movie. I watched the movies over and over again. I've only read the books, I think, one time. And it took me a few tries to get through the songs. You're trying to out me here right now, aren't Speaker 3 (4:02) you? Speaker 2 (4:02) The songs are Speaker 1 (4:03) tough. You know, the songs take up a lot of real estate in the books. It's Speaker 3 (4:06) a lot Speaker 1 (4:06) of reading Speaker 2 (4:07) songs in the books. Listen, Speaker 3 (4:09) hold on. Speaker 2 (4:10) This is like reading War and Peace Speaker 3 (4:11) where you Speaker 2 (4:12) just skip Speaker 3 (4:12) over it. You know, skip over the names of all the families and, you know, the Speaker 2 (4:17) generals at the battlefield. Just skip over it. But this is, that is what, because you've read what? All the books. Speaker 3 (4:23) I am, you're going to out me there. Are you a Speaker 1 (4:26) huge Lord of the Rings Speaker 2 (4:27) fan? Speaker 1 (4:27) No, no, no. Speaker 3 (4:27) Again, I am more, I know more about it than most. I read it, The Fellowship of the Ring. I was like, have you like a lot of eighth graders did going into freshman year? Yeah. And I was like, I was waiting because my older brothers liked it. I remember watching as a kid, the 1970 something cartoon. The Hobbit. The Hobbit. Yeah. And that would come on like every like Easter on like channel five. It'd be like. This is going to be a good day. Speaker 1 (4:54) The Lord is risen and the covenant is on TV. Bilbo's Speaker 2 (4:57) here. Speaker 3 (4:58) You know, so I have read everything. Speaker 1 (5:04) So the trilogy. The Speaker 3 (5:05) appendixes. The Speaker 1 (5:07) appendices, the hobbit. The Silmarillion. The Speaker 3 (5:09) Silmarillion. The House of Children of Turin. Children Speaker 1 (5:13) of Turin, the Unfinished Tales. Yeah, Speaker 3 (5:14) I've read it, everything. I've read everything. I didn't know Speaker 1 (5:16) this. Yeah, Speaker 3 (5:17) I Speaker 1 (5:17) know. This is thrilling. But I Speaker 3 (5:19) don't speak Sindarian. I don't speak Dwarvish. I know nothing. I don't Speaker 1 (5:25) know, you gave that really convincing speak, friend, and enter to start the pod. The lock. Speaker 2 (5:29) The lock. I will tell Joanna this story. Oh Speaker 1 (5:32) my God, I didn't know. This Speaker 2 (5:34) is the quintessential David Chang, Lord of the Rings plus antisocial behavior story. We were together at some food event. Sure. And we all had to like get on a bus together or something, or it was a boat, I think. And Dave was like, oh man, I hope nobody sits next to us. I hope nobody sits next to us. And he's like, I got it. And I was like, what? He just starts recounting the entirety of the Silmarillion to me. Like, just, is it a story? I don't even know. It's like Speaker 1 (6:03) the Old Testament, essentially, in Middle Earth. Okay, Speaker 2 (6:05) so he's just Speaker 1 (6:05) reading the Old Testament. Begat, like, so-and-so begat so-and-so. He just starts going. Not Speaker 3 (6:10) anybody. Not anything, Johanna. We were talking about, really, the foundation of, like, there's, like, before time. Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:20) And Speaker 2 (6:20) then you're Speaker 1 (6:20) talking about. Speaker 2 (6:21) Singing the music into the universe. Speaker 1 (6:23) So he's giving me, Speaker 2 (6:24) he's basically reading the Bible to me from memory. And it works. people keep walking up to us and then they see him just in the throes of this speaking tongues about Lord of the Rings to me and they just turn their heels. I would. They'd sit Speaker 3 (6:37) down. It was like a chef conference and I would be like, hey, that's cool. That was a cool presentation, right? Yeah. Did you know anything about... Speaker 1 (6:45) It was crazy. Okay, so next time I'm on a Southwest flight and I'm really hoping no one sits next to me, I just need to start reciting the Silmarillion. Yeah, Speaker 2 (6:54) just Speaker 1 (6:54) to yourself. Okay. Speaker 2 (6:55) Here's the only thing. It worked in the sense that nobody sat down next to us. He accomplished his task. Speaker 1 (7:00) Okay. The Speaker 2 (7:00) price is... Speaker 1 (7:02) I had to sit Speaker 3 (7:02) there Speaker 2 (7:03) and listen to this. Speaker 1 (7:04) I lost this whole- The joy, the gift you got to learn about Tolkien. And Speaker 3 (7:08) when I saw that he was being waterboarded with some knowledge that was not exactly correct, because I can't pronounce everything, I just couldn't stop. Speaker 2 (7:17) Oh, yeah, to keep going. I was witnessing. I was witnessing to Christopher. Yeah. He was speaking in tongues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is the depth of your knowledge. You've read, I assume, these titles. Speaker 1 (7:27) All the books that David has read, I have read them as well. Even Speaker 2 (7:31) Christopher Speaker 3 (7:31) Tolkien stuff? Speaker 1 (7:32) I have some read. All of it. Yes, yes, absolutely. The son of Tolkien. Speaker 3 (7:35) Nepotism at its best. Speaker 1 (7:37) The thing I love about Christopher Tolkien is how much he hates the Peter Jackson movies. He calls them Lord of the Onion Rings. He thinks they're like cheap action movies. It's really funny. I think they're wonderful. I want Speaker 2 (7:49) it. So we've got the credibility established for Joanna's Lord of the Rings cred. Speaker 1 (7:53) Yeah. Speaker 2 (7:54) Dave's Lord of the Rings cred established. I'm going to be the relative newbie, although I feel like I can hang. Why Speaker 3 (7:59) wouldn't you compel to go deep? The song's turning off. You read everything? Come on. Speaker 1 (8:08) You can skip the songs if you need to. But also, I heard you well, actually, on some textual technicalities of the food. That's Speaker 2 (8:15) all just from some research I've been doing. I feel like I can hang. But we have your credibility on. The credibility we tend to need to establish on the show, Recipe Club, here is a little bit of food credibility. We don't know you as an eater or as a cook at all. Speaker 1 (8:32) Yes. And Speaker 2 (8:33) so I devised a little test I wanted to do today. Speaker 1 (8:35) Okay. Speaker 2 (8:36) We normally just ask the person to rate themselves as an eater, as a cook, as a food person. Okay. But I had a thematic one we were going to do. Okay. So a classic line, I believe from both the book and the movie, when the unnaturally old Bilbo Baggins is talking to Gandalf in the Shire, he says, I feel thin, stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread. I feel Speaker 1 (9:00) thin, sort of stretched, like... Butter scraped over too much bread. Speaker 2 (9:08) So just as a little test, I have some very nice butter here. We have a little baguette here. What I would like you to do for us, Joanna, if you're willing, would be just to butter a piece of bread as you normally would. Speaker 1 (9:21) What's the right amount of ratio? So you're going to judge me based on how Speaker 2 (9:25) much butter? Speaker 1 (9:25) We're going to judge you whatever Speaker 2 (9:26) happens. Whatever happens. Speaker 1 (9:28) Okay, can I start and say, can I first do my impression of how Bilbo felt? Yes. Right? Butter starts over too much toast, right? That's like, that's like. Speaker 2 (9:40) We are agreed that this is too little butter. That's Speaker 1 (9:43) Bilbo. That's how Bilbo's feeling. Yes. Speaker 3 (9:45) That is a, I would say, majority of people that butter their bread. Speaker 1 (9:50) They Speaker 3 (9:50) are sad individuals. Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:52) Okay. I would do, and my preference is for the bread to be warm so that the butter can sort of ooze into the crevices and stuff like that. But I would do something closer to that. Okay. Speaker 2 (10:05) That would be my preference. Are we able to see that? Can we hold this to one of our cameras? Can you guys see this? Speaker 2 (10:14) Oh, this camera. This camera here. Okay. So, this is your typical buttering style. Is it still sad? Well, before Dave weighs, I just want to say, we've talked about this many times on the podcast, never with the benefit of color Speaker 3 (10:29) television. 4K high def. Speaker 2 (10:31) 4K high def. David Chang. You know what? Speaker 3 (10:34) I just want to tell the world, because Bill Simmons trashed me on his podcast today with the fantasy dudes. I was very upset. That first, this version, like this, this like anemic. Yeah, Speaker 1 (10:51) yeah, yeah. Speaker 3 (10:52) I've had dinner with Bill Simmons many Speaker 1 (10:53) times. Speaker 3 (10:53) I want this to be the pull quote. I want this to go on socials. This is Bill Simmons buttering his fucking bread. This is Bill Simmons buttering his bread. Because he's watching his waistline. Even when he's not. Speaker 1 (11:06) It's a Bilbo experience with Bill and the butter. Speaker 2 (11:10) Bilbo is, I mean Bilbo. Bilbo Simmons? Bilbo Simmons. Speaker 1 (11:13) Wow. Speaker 3 (11:15) Bilbo Speaker 2 (11:15) Simmons is how he would do it. Speaker 3 (11:17) Now. This is a Bill Simmons buttered bread. Speaker 1 (11:20) Okay. And it's sad. Speaker 3 (11:21) This is Speaker 2 (11:23) sad. It is very sad. Now, David Chang, now with the benefit of 4K television, can you grade Joanna's buttering? and then show us the proper amount of butter. Speaker 3 (11:35) No, no, no. Here's the deal. You know that it's good. Because from a distance, you might look at this and say, you know, I can still see the bread. I don't know. But upon a little bit closer inspection, like this, the nooks and crannies. She Speaker 2 (11:48) shoved Speaker 1 (11:49) it Speaker 2 (11:49) into the nooks and crannies. That's crucial. It's deceptive. Speaker 3 (11:51) It's much like a very hot bowl of ramen that looks like it's not boiling underneath, but it is. Got it, Speaker 1 (11:56) yeah. Because, I mean, there's a lot of... bread left down here. You want to make sure the Speaker 3 (12:00) butter... This Speaker 2 (12:00) is a Speaker 3 (12:00) passing grade. And in my world, that's like an A+. Speaker 1 (12:04) Now, Speaker 2 (12:04) what is an A +, Dave? What is the proper... This is the first time we've had cameras to show this. I Speaker 3 (12:11) will Speaker 2 (12:11) tell you, if I had this, this is what I would do. I wouldn't butter it this way. Honestly, Speaker 1 (12:15) that's the move. I Speaker 2 (12:16) would go Speaker 1 (12:17) like this. Stuffed Speaker 2 (12:18) crust, if you Speaker 3 (12:18) will. I agree. Speaker 1 (12:20) So Speaker 3 (12:20) I've always thought that buttering bread, for those that haven't worked in kitchens, it should be a little bit like foie gras. Right? Because you don't put a little bit of foie and wisp it on. Right? Right, Bill Simmons? You put a big chunk on and then you sort of smush it on. I would say this butter is a little too warm for me. You want it just enough where it sort Speaker 1 (12:43) of breaks apart Speaker 3 (12:45) a little bit. It's nice. It can't be too cold. Speaker 1 (12:47) Right? Beautiful. Speaker 3 (12:49) But you want this to be a layer. Speaker 2 (12:55) Oh, it is. Yeah. Speaker 3 (12:57) Oh. Speaker 2 (12:59) See you thought it was that much for both pieces. I thought it was gonna be a Speaker 3 (13:01) Sammy, but Speaker 1 (13:02) it's not. It's not a butter Sammy. No, it's not. Okay, got it, got it. Speaker 3 (13:06) So like, and here's the deal. As a comp, let me not say foie gras, that is just not accessible for a lot of people. Speaker 1 (13:13) Yeah. If Speaker 3 (13:13) I put... Speaker 1 (13:14) Jam? Speaker 3 (13:16) Exactly. Like, if I just did this, like the Bill Simmons anemic approach, and you imagine this was peanut butter, Speaker 1 (13:27) you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. Speaker 3 (13:30) So... Treat this like it's peanut butter. Speaker 1 (13:33) Treat butter like Speaker 2 (13:34) it's peanut butter. It's bread and butter. It's not bread with a little butter. And again, I Speaker 3 (13:38) would much rather have one or two bites of something quality, delicious, than seven bites of Bill Simmons. Of like, Speaker 1 (13:50) butter has just been sort of whispered over the bread. Someone said butter next to the bread. Speaker 2 (13:55) The butter passed over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All this aside, first of all, Pax and Grade. But I think that this metaphor is such a nice Tolkien piece of writing. I Speaker 1 (14:05) say it all the time. Like, I think it's just a... See? Speaker 2 (14:09) That was more butter than Speaker 3 (14:11) bread. That was way more butter Speaker 2 (14:13) than Speaker 3 (14:13) bread. And you want Speaker 2 (14:14) the Speaker 3 (14:14) butter to sort of coat the mouth. Okay. That was delightful. I know. But the thing is, you actually don't need more than like a bite or two. Speaker 1 (14:24) Okay, and then yeah, you've experienced your butter. You recently did a Star Wars episode. I don't know what order these are coming out in, but you did do a Star Wars episode. One of my favorite lines from Star Wars is, he's more machine than man now. And I kind of like the idea of like, it's more butter than bread now. Yeah, Speaker 2 (14:40) exactly. You're doing it correctly when your bread becomes Vader. Speaker 1 (14:45) Yes, you Vader'd your bread. It's not really that. Speaker 3 (14:47) You're doing it correctly if you're at dinner with people and they're like... But I'm like, what? Easy with butter. It's like, you only live once. Speaker 2 (14:54) All right, we have more stuff, but I don't know where you were going with this. So you let me know when you want to take this one Speaker 3 (14:59) off. Speaker 2 (14:59) So Speaker 3 (14:59) I think I'm going to, I made these. These are some, we had some pork and chicken. These are chicken pork burgers. Some cayenne pepper. Provolone. Just stuff that we had. We were working on another episode. And then Joanna was here. I was like, we need to give her more than, you know, Lembas, right? Speaker 1 (15:17) But it's just a bite or two of Lembas will do you all day. Exactly. Speaker 3 (15:21) And fill you up with hope as well, Christopher. And grace, I know. But for those that don't know, I think this is not everything in the book and not everything in the movies always sort of mirror each other in anything that's like a proper crossover. But in this regard, I think it is where in the book, food is actually pretty prevalent throughout. Right. And in the movies as well. But the one thing for certain is, and I was talking to Chris about it, I didn't realize it, the characters that are good are always giving food away. They're always sharing. They're always hospitable. And Speaker 1 (15:58) the Speaker 3 (15:58) characters that are bad do not share. They only eat. Speaker 1 (16:02) They're cherry tomatoes disgustingly. Speaker 3 (16:04) Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (16:05) Got it. Some Denethor behavior. Exactly. Speaker 2 (16:08) That's very interesting, because obviously Galadriel gives them the Lemma Spread, a huge act of generosity. Going all Speaker 3 (16:14) the way back to the Hobbit, even when Frodo did not want the dwarves in his house, he still fed them. Speaker 2 (16:30) Yes. Speaker 3 (16:30) Almost like, you know, if we want to merge movies together, Frodo treats everybody like they're Zeus. Speaker 1 (16:36) Zeus's law. Frodo's law. Bilbo's law. Speaker 2 (16:39) As you're parceling these out, it brings us to our first... Oh, there's the tomato. There it is. There it goes. Take that out. Take that out. It brings us to our first movie, The Fellowship of the Ring. Speaker 1 (16:51) Okay. Speaker 2 (16:52) Which came out just as you said. Go ahead and start here. Don't wait on me. These sandwiches look delicious. You brought it up, Dave. So Bilbo, just to get into your exact point, though. Speaker 3 (17:05) Frodo, if he was alive today, would fucking eat the shit Speaker 2 (17:07) out of him. If you're good, you share. If you're bad, you don't. So Fellowship of the Ring, the first scene is Bilbo, not the first scene, but the opening scene in the Shire is Bilbo Baggins' 111th birthday. Birthday, Speaker 1 (17:21) yeah. Speaker 2 (17:22) and he's kind of like, but he's a little, he's like a little pissed. He's like, he's like a little annoyed at how many people are coming to sort of freeload off of him and how many people he has to feed, which kind of goes to your point of like Bilbo's a good dude, but he's got this ring corrupting him a little bit. This bitterness is corrupting him a little bit where he's just like that natural hobbit generosity is maybe fading. Speaker 1 (17:47) Oh, I love that. But also the Sackville Bagginses are so annoying. The Sackville Bagginses are Speaker 2 (17:51) annoying. You Speaker 1 (17:51) don't want to feed them. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, like, Bilbo's party is, that's the party I want, always. Like, all the fireworks, all the dancing, all the... barrels of drink and delicious looking food. And that's all you think about when you think about the Shire, is you think about the long bottom leaf. And what does the long bottom leaf make you want to do? Eat. And so you're just cozy at home in the Shire and they're constantly snacking. And the way in which the Hobbits for the rest of the movies are just constantly wondering, where's the next meal? Where's my elevensies? Where's my second breakfast? Actually, one of my favorite... food moments. It's not like the food scene of Lord of the Rings. Most people don't think about it, I think. But after the Battle of Isengard, when they've, you know, they've flooded everything and there's dead orcs in the water everywhere. And Merry and Pippin find the stores of Isengard. And they're so excited. But they pull a chicken out of that water that is full of dead orcs. And I was like, are you guys going to eat that dead orc soup chicken? Speaker 3 (18:52) I mean, the hobbits know how to cook it over 450 degrees. Speaker 3 (18:57) I Speaker 2 (18:57) mean, again, we'll get to that scene too. Speaker 3 (18:58) They're good cooks. Clearly, if Speaker 2 (18:59) you're a hobbit, you're going to Speaker 1 (19:01) cook. Speaker 2 (19:01) You're eating well, Speaker 1 (19:02) yeah. Speaker 2 (19:02) What I think is amazing about that scene in the storeroom too is Speaker 1 (19:05) that Speaker 2 (19:06) it is a chicken, but it's also a fully cooked chicken. I Speaker 1 (19:09) know. This is floating by. And they're so excited. Speaker 2 (19:13) So let me ask you this. Are hobbits the hungriest race in cinematic history? Speaker 2 (19:22) I Speaker 1 (19:22) think they're like the snackiest, you know what I mean? Like, they just want comfort constantly. So it's not, I think there are probably foul beasts out there that have a bigger appetite. Trolls Speaker 3 (19:34) for sure. Speaker 1 (19:34) Yeah, but I think the way that hobbits just want comfort all the time, and that's what food can provide, right? Speaker 2 (19:39) Yeah, but there's, trolls for sure, all these other, but I'm going to disagree a little bit. Okay. Speaker 3 (19:45)