Raising Capable Friends, Not Just Capable Kids, Sissy Goff and David Thomas on navigating friendship season

Raising Good Humans

Dr. Aliza Pressman sits down with therapists Sissy Goff and David Thomas to discuss navigating the social complexities of childhood and adol

Key takeaways

• Use the 'FAIL' acronym (First Attempt In Learning) to lower the stakes of awkward social interactions.
• Equip children with 'back pocket questions' like 'Will you play with me?' to navigate lunch and recess.

Main topics

• Back-to-school social anxiety
• Practical friendship tools for kids

Notable quotes

Nervous is normal.

Conclusion

The episode provides a toolkit for parents to transform social anxiety

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) We are living in a world where we're so attuned to feelings that make us think inward so much of the time. And I think it makes the anxiety worse at times. And so how can we help them move outward and think about being a good friend? Today's Speaker 3 (0:17) conversation is about friendships. There's so many expectations about friendships, whether you're starting kindergarten or whether you're in middle school. I have David. Thomas and Cincy Goff, who are so awesome. They have a private practice in Nashville. They have a huge podcast, Raising Boys and Girls. They have a great book out, New York Times bestseller, Capable, and I just love that. And they have the most practical tools for navigating friendships, understanding what being a good friend is, that was a big part of the conversation. Because we so focus on like finding friends to be good friends to us, but how can we be good friends? And sometimes that makes all the other stuff fall into place a little bit more. So I'm really excited about it. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman, developmental psychologist. New York Times bestselling author, associate clinical professor at the Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast. I am so glad you're here. Speaker 3 (1:21) The title of your book, Capable, says it all. We are in this place right now, I think a lot of parents, of wanting so much to have capable kids, but also wanting to do everything to maybe over-prepare them for this time period. So let's, thinking about Speaker 2 (1:42) Capable as a framework, Speaker 3 (1:46) Can we talk about this transition to school, sort of the developmental transition so we can talk about the littles and the bigger ones? Tell me. Tell me everything. Speaker 2 (1:56) Well, you know everything. It's so fun to talk to you. But we... Yes, or just hearing so much. I mean, from littles to I was talking to a college student this weekend who said, I'm so nervous about starting back. And it's so easy for us to think because it's their 12th first day, they're not going to be nervous anymore, but they are still nervous. And what you know, too. transitions temporarily create more emotional reactivity in the brain because it's processing so much new information. And so they genuinely are having the big feelings. And when we try to dismiss them in those, we're not helping them. And so we talk so much. We were just talking this morning about nervous is normal is one of our favorite statements. And to say that with kids and then, Aliza, I Speaker 3 (2:44) feel Speaker 2 (2:44) like on all the things we just are always thinking the same way. So aligned. Speaker 3 (2:48) That we're helping understand Speaker 2 (2:49) those emotions and move them toward capability in the midst of them. That it's both things. You Speaker 3 (2:55) just said things so casually. 12 first days, that's 12 practices. That's not very much. Yeah. Over the course of 12, like, Speaker 2 (3:03) I've Speaker 3 (3:04) never thought about that. It's a really good point. Thinking about just making friends, just starting with that, whether it's your first first day, your 12th first day. How do you like to talk to young people and their parents? Because for some, they're going into kindergarten. This is a big deal. This is a new school. This is a new building. What are the worries that you see? And how can we help prepare them while not making it something where they feel like, I'm not capable of doing this on my own? Speaker 1 (3:39) You know, I think it really starts with... Our reminding ourselves as the grownups in the room, like how am I working through whatever big emotions I'm experiencing so that the hope would be, we talk a lot about how anxiety is contagious, but so is calm. And that if I'm doing the work I need to do, I have more calm to bring to the equation and less spillover of intensity, worry, concern, all the things. So I think that's the beginning point. And then I would say. A second what I hope could be helpful thought for parents to consider is we love flipping the word fail on its head. We talk about fail as an acronym for first attempt in learning. And so what if, to your great question about making friends, we were to see every interaction as nothing more than that, a first attempt in learning. So the conversation might be clumsy and clunky, and that sounds exactly right. So there's not this expectation of. we would talk and 10 minutes later, we'd be best friends or we would have had a thoughtful conversation in our very first interaction. So I think it starts with us thinking about our posture and then thinking about the expectation, which I think invites kids into a more realistic transition as we think about the academic space, the relational space, all the layers. Speaker 3 (4:59) It does seem to be that the expectation about friendship is I'm going to make my best friend. We're going to be besties forever. And things change. And things change year to year. But I love the idea of starting off with a reframe that it's first attempt at learning. And you're just, not just, it's a, you know, I could still use that for me today. But it does lower the stakes. And so what are some ways that we can help lower those stakes to just get in there with fail? Speaker 2 (5:34) I think being so practical is helpful with kids. And, you know, in the book, we have 100 capability building exercises for kids of all ages. And so thinking with them, and I wonder if you've had the same experience. When I talk with kids about starting school and I will ask the question, hey, I know lunch and recess are the two hardest times of the day. Do you ever sit next to someone and think, I don't know what to ask them? And every time I've ever said that to a kid, they've said. Yes. You know, which makes me think if I've only asked 30 kids that over the years, probably 90 % of them don't know what to ask. And so we love to arm kids. We call them back pocket questions. Let's talk about questions they can ask based on their age as they're starting these relationships and remembering that it takes a long time, that it's slow growth on friendships. What are some practical ways like that that we can help them be prepared? I have two little nephews that I get to spend a lot of time with, and my oldest went to kindergarten a couple years ago. And we spent so much time the night before school just practicing him saying, my name's Henry, do you want to play with me? Speaker 1 (6:42) You Speaker 2 (6:42) know, just, I mean, we all know role play makes such a difference. And so I think even Building down those kind of breaking down those building blocks can help them remember, oh, yeah, this is slow and I've got to practice and it's going to be clunky and awkward along the way. But at least if I practice, I feel like it's Speaker 3 (7:00) a Speaker 2 (7:00) little predictable. Speaker 3 (7:01) That's great. So what are some other kind of little lines that we can practice? My name is Henry. Speaker 2 (7:09) Will you play with me? Will you play with me? Speaker 3 (7:12) Now, of course, Henry's young. So it's easier to say, even though it's still challenging as they get older, maybe there's something else. Tell us some of the prompts we can give. Speaker 1 (7:24) You know, it's interesting in my work with a lot of boys and adolescent males over the years, I think about this time of year and how often schools are hosting a dance or homecoming sometimes in September, October. So there's this. You know, short runway once I walk in the building that I, for a lot of boys, I need to make an ask. And so I've loved having adolescent boys just type two to three questions in their phone so that when they hit those awkward stilted moments in the conversation, lead with how was your summer? What's been the hardest part of the start of school? So that they feel armed with some questions that are going to move through the complicated. parts of early conversations or just the freezing up that I think so often happens when adolescents are having interactions with the opposite sex. Or Speaker 2 (8:14) grownups. Speaker 1 (8:14) Or grownups, yes. Speaker 2 (8:15) Any of us. Speaker 1 (8:16) Well, and within that, we talk so much with parents about just remembering the importance of narrating your experience in the everyday that reminds kids we're still humans. We're still fumbling the ball. We still have awkward conversations. I had a really hilarious interaction with a mom not long ago who she said to me, David, I have had more empathy for my kids lately because I had a lot of friends who had taken up tennis, some of whom played back in the day when they were in high school and some who had played a good bit along the way. And I never play, but I thought I want to enjoy the sport with them. So I took up the sport, took some lessons, and she said, it turns out I'm terrible. And she Speaker 2 (8:57) said. The group instructor Speaker 1 (9:00) was giving feedback to me in front of all the other folks, and I found myself getting teary. She's like, I'm a woman in my 40s. Like, I'm not going to Wimbledon. But it was this great moment of me being able to narrate my experience with my kids to say, it does feel overwhelming when a coach or a teacher gives you some feedback and others are present. Or the instructor at one point said, okay, let's team up and play some doubles. And she said, everyone around me started moving toward another person like no one chose me. And it was that reminder of our kids are going to have those kind of moments all throughout the school year that she brought into just the everyday conversation at the dinner table, which I think gives kids permission to just be human. Speaker 3 (9:44) Oh, I can. I so remember never. I was always chosen last in soccer or Speaker 2 (9:50) in Speaker 3 (9:51) any sport, but soccer was what everybody did at recess. And I was like, oh, my God, it's so humiliating. Speaker 2 (9:58) Yes. But parents, look at where she is now and all of the amazing things that she's doing. So there's a lot of hope and you can remind your kids of that, too. Actually, it's true. We don't need Speaker 3 (10:09) to panic to go back to what you were saying in the beginning if they're getting chosen last for soccer. I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. But getting chosen last today could send people into a tailspin. Speaker 1 (10:24) Yes. Speaker 3 (10:25) Instead of just like, you know, yeah, I get chosen last for things still as an adult. I mean, if anybody were to play tennis with me and go off in pairs, I would be like. Speaker 3 (10:39) So I think that narrating our own experiences a little bit, especially with younger kids and then teenagers who are curious and interested, Speaker 2 (10:49) is Speaker 3 (10:50) so helpful. And normalizing that this is awkward stuff. I mean, just thinking about how hard it is to start a conversation, even when you're writing down those three questions. I'm like, that is, it takes a lot. I mean, like I am more introverted. So the idea of having to strike up the conversation is like, ah, sounds so stressful. And it looks so seamless for some kids. It just, it's easier for them. What are some of the traits that you see where there's a little bit more ease for some of the kids? They're probably not coming in. But where there's some... ease for some of the kids that are sitting with you have observed where they're just like, everybody likes so Speaker 2 (11:37) -and-so, why? That's such an interesting question. And we haven't gotten to talk. Sometime we're going to talk about all of our collective work environments. But one of the things we do in our practice is we have a