S5 Ep 51: Chef Michael Symon; why hospitality isn't dead, his Food Network rise & why he's not a fan of Michelin

Put It In My Mouth

Chef Michael Symon, a Food Network icon with decades of culinary success, shares his journey from Cleveland's Lola restaurant to national fa

Key takeaways

Hospitality is not dead—despite economic pressures, passion and innovation keep restaurants thriving.

Main topics

The rise of Michael Symon on Food Network
The impact of Lola restaurant in Cleveland's culinary scene

Notable quotes

"Hospitality is dead? That's bullshit. It's just harder now, but you have to try harder."

Conclusion

Michael Symon reaffirms his belief in the enduring spirit of hospitali

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:15) What's up, Taste Buds? Welcome to the podcast that loves to braise hell. Speaker 3 (0:22) Do you see what I Speaker 2 (0:23) did there? That's a food pun, Judith. I'm sorry, did you hate it? Speaker 3 (0:28) No, you know what? I kind of like it. Speaker 2 (0:30) Oh my god, she should be a tagline for a restaurant. Braising hell. Speaker 3 (0:35) I like it. Thank you. Finally. Yeah, you get one. Speaker 2 (0:39) You get one dad jokes. I'm going to have a dad joke every episode. You are. Yep, every episode. So I'm Lala. This is Judith. Welcome. We would be remiss if we didn't say in the beginning of the show that you should like, follow, subscribe, do all the things because, you know, that's how we get seen. That's how the algorithm knows that you want more. And we know you want Speaker 3 (1:05) more. We do. We'd like to know if you want more. Speaker 2 (1:07) And if you are a brand that aligns with our epic views, let's partner. Let's work together because we're looking for some really epic partners right now. And also, don't forget about our sub stack because we talk about where we're eating, what we're drinking. A little bit more current. Yeah. And all the cool things that we're doing. So you get that for $5 a month, folks, which is less than a cup of coffee these days. We should lower it to $4.99 so we can save. For the low, low price of $4.99. Right. It seems so much cheaper. So much cheaper than $5. So we were in Ocean City this weekend. Ocean shitty Maryland. Not New Jersey. Right. Because we're Maryland girls. Yeah. Distinction. Without a difference. It's like my childhood. We had crabs three times. Twice in one day. Yes. Twice in Speaker 3 (1:55) one Speaker 2 (1:55) day. We wanted to do twice in two days, Speaker 3 (1:57) but we didn't get to it the first day. No. But a lot of crabs. There were many. There were distinct differences between the three places with the crabs. And it's the crabs from the same place. It's all the same crab. Right. They're all coming from the same place. Speaker 2 (2:10) All blue crabs. But Speaker 3 (2:11) they Speaker 2 (2:11) were Speaker 3 (2:11) all Speaker 2 (2:12) distinct in their crabness. There was a clear winner. So we should shout out by the bay seafood. Yeah. Speaker 3 (2:19) And Speaker 2 (2:19) also, I just read that there is in Sheep's Head Bay. There is a Maryland-style crab house. Wait, run by Maryland people or just Maryland style? It's unclear, but we should go and find out. What's Speaker 3 (2:31) it called? Speaker 2 (2:31) It's called Clemente's. Clemente's. Can we go? Speaker 3 (2:34) Let's go before summer is over. All right, let's Speaker 2 (2:37) do it. Yeah. All right, let's bring on our guest because we have so much to talk about. Honestly, like his bio could take up the whole show because it's so freaking long. I'm not even going to. That's not a joke about you being old. I Speaker 1 (2:51) was going to say because he's very old. Speaker 2 (2:53) He hasn't died. It's honestly just too much to mention. I mean, he has so many cookbooks. New York Times bestsellers, James Beard, best chef. He is, in fact. A Food Network personality. If you watch anything on Food Network, you have seen this man. Burgers, Brews, and Q. Throwdown. 24 and 24. Simon Suppers. He was on The Chew on ABC. He is an Iron Chef winner? Like, what the hell? Do you sleep? I mean... It's Speaker 1 (3:27) overrated. Speaker 2 (3:27) Yeah. He was a three-time South Beach Food and Wine burger winner? Only three? Jesus. Speaker 1 (3:33) I only did it three times. Speaker 1 (3:36) I want to point out, too, before we move forward, Bobby Flay took second those three years. Speaker 2 (3:40) Oh, I bet. I bet. Which was Speaker 1 (3:43) nothing short of glorious. Speaker 2 (3:45) You're also an Emmy Award winner for The Chew. You have a great laugh. And you have a street named after you. What the hell are you doing slumming it here with us? Michael Simon, everyone. Chef Michael Simon. What's Speaker 3 (3:58) going on? Speaker 2 (3:59) Wait, where's the Speaker 3 (4:00) street? Speaker 1 (4:01) Cleveland. I'm from Cleveland. I Speaker 3 (4:02) love Speaker 1 (4:03) that. That's a thing. Where original Lola and Lolita were in Cleveland, they named it Michael Simon's Corner. Speaker 3 (4:11) That's really cool. Speaker 2 (4:12) That's how you know you've made it. Can we have a put it in my mouth? The only Speaker 1 (4:16) problem is, is all my childhood friends that I'm still dear friends with live in Cleveland, except like one or two. So I had to get the sign switched out a lot because they would have a couple too many cocktails. No, they would graffiti the site. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:33) Desecration. Desecration. My God, cool. Yeah, Speaker 1 (4:36) I should give this. I'm going to give the city all their names. Speaker 2 (4:40) Dude, if you had a street named after you, I'd steal that shit and see how many I could hang in my wall. Like tiles. Just all of them all the time. I think that'd be great. All right. So, dude. I don't even know where to start. Speaker 1 (4:54) I'm happy to be here. I want to know if you guys were brazen hell in Maryland. Speaker 2 (4:57) What do you think? I mean, we met when we were 18. I love that. And we were theater majors. I Speaker 1 (5:04) love that. So Speaker 2 (5:05) I think we brazed some hell. We brazed some hell. I Speaker 1 (5:08) love that you guys have been, like, a lot of, all my friends I've been, like, the majority of my friends I've been friends with since I've been, like, they started, like, three years old. So like I've been friends with all of them for way over 40 years. I Speaker 3 (5:21) love that. And that's how you get like a diverse group of friends. Yeah. You've met before you've like really established it. Like I am this person and I only make friends with this kind of people. But when you're younger, you're making friends with everybody. My Speaker 1 (5:33) culinary director, him and I have been, Tim Connors, him and I have been friends since we've been eight. Speaker 2 (5:38) Jesus. Speaker 1 (5:39) And he's my culinary director now. That's a long time. Speaker 2 (5:44) Yeah, Speaker 1 (5:44) 48 years. Speaker 2 (5:44) Damn. Speaker 1 (5:45) So Speaker 2 (5:46) you've opened and closed a bunch of places. At one point, you had how many restaurants? Speaker 1 (5:51) We had management deals and things. We had 19 restaurants pre-pandemic. Speaker 2 (5:56) That's a lot of fucking restaurants. It Speaker 1 (5:57) was a lot of fucking restaurants. Speaker 2 (5:59) And you... Got famous, won these awards, the James Beard and all of that from your long running restaurant. Speaker 1 (6:07) Lola. Lola started everything. So our big break was. Speaker 1 (6:13) In 1998, Food & Wine named me Best New Chef. And then that's kind of started. Everything exploded after that. Speaker 2 (6:20) And you basically put Cleveland on the map with that restaurant. Speaker 1 (6:24) Yeah, I mean, it was a groundbreaking restaurant. It was the first restaurant in Cleveland to ever win all these national awards. So like that year, I won Food & Wine Best New Chef. We were named one of the top 10 restaurants by Bon App. It was named one of the top. Esquire named it one of the top, you know, it just, it just exploded. Yeah. It exploded. And then everything. And then I, that same year they gave me a show on food network in 1998. All that just happened from literally from the food and wine award. I Speaker 2 (6:53) obviously want to ask about that because that seems like a very quick jump, but how do you, how did it feel to have to close a restaurant that basically built your career? It Speaker 1 (7:02) was brutal. It was, uh, so mid pandemic. our lease ran out at Lola and we just didn't know it was on the other side. And the landlord at the time wouldn't work with us. You know, it was just. And Speaker 2 (7:16) it had been there for how long? Speaker 1 (7:17) Well, Lola had been open at that point, I think for 25 years. What a Speaker 2 (7:21) dick. Speaker 1 (7:22) He actually wasn't a horrible guy. And cause it's, he was in full panic mode too. I can't really even blame him. But the good news is about that whole thing is the place that ended up taking Lola's space is, was Cordelia and Vinny. the chef there has now won food and wine, best new chef. Speaker 2 (7:39) Oh, so it was nominated Speaker 1 (7:40) for a beard this year. So like somehow that space makes magic. It has good Speaker 2 (7:45) karma. Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:46) It's got good karma in the space. So Speaker 2 (7:48) you've had so many restaurants, you've opened a ton. You've had to close a few in your professional opinion is having a restaurant still a profitable game. Speaker 1 (8:01) Yes. Speaker 2 (8:01) Slight pause. Speaker 1 (8:02) Well, you know, I think it's harder now, you know, because times have changed. You know, I think. Speaker 1 (8:12) What I hate to read or when people say hospitality is dead, the restaurant industry is dead. That's bullshit. It Speaker 3 (8:19) absolutely is bullshit. You got to try harder. Yeah. Speaker 1 (8:21) And are Speaker 3 (8:22) people going to stop going out to dinner? No. Like, Speaker 1 (8:25) look, restaurants really can't control so much nowadays what food costs so much because the food they're purchasing is so much more expensive than it used to be. So that part is a tough part. You're either going to have a slightly higher food cost. Or your customer is going to have to be willing to pay a little bit more price. But, you know, give them magic experiences. Give them incredible service. Do all the things that we always should be doing anyhow. Like, look, is maybe the restaurant industry broken a bit? Yeah, I would go by that. But to say that it's dead and you can't make it anymore and you can't exist, complete horseshit. She just Speaker 3 (9:02) needs Speaker 2 (9:02) some PT. Speaker 1 (9:03) Yeah. Like, get down and dirty. Get in there. I Speaker 2 (9:07) mean, it's called hospitality for a reason. Yeah. And I think that people are forgetting about that and they're just worried about it. No, sometimes, Speaker 1 (9:13) like, the restaurants that I love and go to, I know that we've both been there recently. I say Theodora. I don't know if they actually say it, Theodora. In Fort Greene? In Speaker 2 (9:23) Fort Greene, yeah. Speaker 3 (9:25) We didn't ask. I was thinking, is it Teodora? Speaker 1 (9:27) Teodora. Maybe Teodora. Well, we just had Speaker 2 (9:29) a lovely dinner there with Susie Fogel. It is, Speaker 1 (9:31) like, Liz and I sat there, and, like, Liz. designs the restaurants and does who's Liz oh Liz is my wife Speaker 3 (9:39) oh okay and of of uh Speaker 1 (9:41) we we met in 19 if you ask me I say 89 she says 90 we met a long time okay well Speaker 2 (9:47) wait she was front of house and you were back yeah right Speaker 1 (9:50) yeah she was my boss oh Speaker 2 (9:51) the old front of house back of house romance so Speaker 1 (9:54) nice but when we first started she like I was I got out called her so I took a job at this restaurant called players in Cleveland as a cook Speaker 2 (10:01) Players? Speaker 1 (10:02) Sounds like Speaker 2 (10:02) a Speaker 1 (10:02) strip club. I know. They bought it and it was called Players and they just kept the name. Wait, was it a strip club? No, it wasn't a strip Speaker 2 (10:10) club. Speaker 1 (10:10) I don't know. I'm not sure. It could have been. Let's say it was because it makes the story better. Players. Former strip club. Yeah. And she ran the front. And the way that that restaurant was set up is whoever was in charge of the front was in charge of everyone. So when I started there, she was my boss. Was it love Speaker 3 (10:27) at first sight? Speaker 1 (10:27) It worked out good because she still is. No, we were. We're very we became very good friends and we were friends for like four years Oh, before you even hooked up? Really good friends. And then we kept hooking up by accident. Speaker 2 (10:41) Oh, sure, sure, sure. Accident. Yeah. And we're like, Speaker 1 (10:44) oh, we can't do that again. We're too good of friends. And then like a week later, that's a terrible idea. We worked together. Terrible idea. We're Speaker 2 (10:51) too good Speaker 1 (10:51) of friends. You know, 30 plus years later, here we are. You do Speaker 2 (10:54) both. Speaker 1 (10:54) Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:55) You do all those things. And we could open a restaurant then. There probably wasn't an HR department back then. Speaker 1 (11:01) No, I don't think so. It was a different time. Speaker 2 (11:03) Yeah, you would have gave a shit. And I mean, she Speaker 1 (11:05) would have been the one that got in deep shit. It's my boss. Yeah. Speaker 2 (11:09) There's that laugh. Don't we love it? It's good. Love it. All right. Well, let's talk. We're going to talk more about Liz for sure. But licensing deals. In terms of opening restaurants, you are a celebrity chef. You are on TV. You have millions of followers. How? Speaker 2 (11:26) How do you feel about them? I'm sure they're throwing money at you. How does it feel to have your face on a restaurant that you're not necessarily at all the time? I Speaker 1 (11:34) think you have to be careful. Like, look, we had one restaurant for 10 years. That was it, one. And then we opened the second one 10 years later. And then we only had one and two for like a total of 15 or 16 years before we did anything else. So we had, for us, growth became, I don't want to say necessity, but. basically all our original employees were still all with us. That's amazing. And they were at a point where I need, you know, we had the chef, the sous chef, the GM, like, but they needed to grow. So we started getting opportunities to do some other things. So we took them and we did it very slowly and gingerly, so to speak. And we don't have a lot of management deals. So like we have. Speaker 1 (12:18) Angelina Taborgata. We've had that for almost 10 years Speaker 2 (12:21) now. That's Speaker 1 (12:22) in Speaker 2 (12:22) the Speaker 1 (12:22) Jers. In Speaker 2 (12:23) Atlantic City. In a casino, right? In the Speaker 1 (12:25) casino. Yeah. And then we have some management deals in stadiums and arenas, but those are super casual, like, burger joints. Do you Speaker 2 (12:33) check in with these spots? Speaker 1 (12:34) Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 100%. They're run by Aramark, who we've had a very good relationship with. But, like, we check in on them all the time, but they're super casual. Like, it's not, they're not, I mean. Everything is sourced chefy, but they're not chefy places. And like in a Browns game, they'll sell 5,000 hamburgers, you know, in the course of the game. You know, like the reality is, is I don't even have the brain to do that. Like I sit there and I go, wow, this is crazy. You know, like, holy shit. You know, I'm putting up a plate at a time and they're like, we got you, chef. Just stand back there. Don't yell at us. Speaker 2 (13:06) Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:08) Don't get in our way. We were very careful. And then it's like, as far as like. brands and ambassadors. Like I just never put my name on something that I didn't enjoy. And that was always our rule. You know, it was like, um, and then we developed some. of our own stuff. But it was like, I did a Lay's commercial once. People were like, I can't believe you're doing Lay's. I'm like, dude, my favorite junk food in the world is Lay's salt and vinegar potato chips and Lawson's French onion dip. And you could come to my fridge right now and it'll be in there and it'll be in the pantry and if you don't like it, go fuck yourself. Like I've been eating that with my grandfather since I was three. There Speaker 2 (13:43) you go. And Speaker 1 (13:44) like, I have no problem. If you don't like it, I don't care. Like this is me, you know? And I still love Lay's potato chips. I try all these other potato chips. I go right back to the Lay's. Speaker 2 (13:56) Right back. I Speaker 3 (13:57) love a salt and vinegar. Well, let's take Speaker 2 (13:58) it back just a little bit further. So you went to culinary school and then you opened Lola in 1997. So you knew you wanted to cook. What year did you graduate from culinary school? You went to culinary school in New York? Speaker 1 (14:11) In Hyde Park, Culinary Institute of America. I graduated in 89. The Speaker 2 (14:16) CIA. The Speaker 1 (14:17) CIA. Yeah, you know, I, so I was a, I'll just say, a solid enough athlete growing up, and I was a wrestler. And my, I came from a very middle-class family, you know, below to middle-class family. And my sister and I were both good athletes, and my dad was relying on our sports scholarships to get us to college. Speaker 2 (14:42) Okay. My Speaker 1 (14:42) junior year, I'm wrestling on the best wrestling team in the country for 10 straight years. Speaker 2 (14:48) Damn. Speaker 1 (14:49) And I shatter my arm. I got a plate, 14 screws, all the bullshit. I try to come back, even though they told me not to. I break the plate in my arm, back in surgery. So I had a cast on for 18 months. So all the scholarships that we thought would be there went away. I started working in my buddy's dad's restaurant. Fell in love with it. My dad worked at Ford at the time. And I said, I think I want to go to culinary school. He's like, Speaker 2 (15:15) you're going to. fucking college you Speaker 3 (15:17) know you're not gonna be a goddamn tradesman like you know the rest of the assignments and Speaker 1 (15:21) and i'm like because you got to remember back then there was no food network there was no like i was going to school to learn a trade you know and i still think that's really you know there's a creativity to the trade but it's a trade and uh Speaker 1 (15:38) So I went to Cleveland State for a semester and I got a .2, not a two point, a .2. Wait, Speaker 2 (15:46) a .2? Speaker 1 (15:47) That's a Speaker 3 (15:48) possible score? Is it out of one? Speaker 1 (15:51) Yeah, out of four. And my dad goes, how the fuck did you get a .2? I'm like, I never went to class, but someone gave me a D. I don't know how it happened. I got four Fs and a D and I guess that comes out the .2. Speaker 2 (16:03) Wow. Okay. And so then I have a Speaker 1 (16:06) Greek Sicilian mother. My dad was 6'4". My mom's 4'10". Oh, Speaker 2 (16:11) my God. Speaker 1 (16:11) Everyone's petrified of my mother. Greek and Sicilian. She's terrifying, Speaker 3 (16:15) I'm sure. And Speaker 1 (16:15) she's like, I'm sick of this bullshit. He's going Speaker 3 (16:18) to culinary school. Speaker 1 (16:19) And off I went. Speaker 3 (16:20) Okay. Yes, ma'am. My Speaker 1 (16:22) dad's like, oh, yeah, you're going to culinary school. That's a good idea. By the Speaker 3 (16:26) way, what she said. Yeah. Speaker 1 (16:27) And then, like, it was hilarious because years down the road when my father retired and everything, they... My dad then worked for me, which was hilarious. Wait, in Speaker 2 (16:35) what capacity? He Speaker 1 (16:37) did the books and kind of helped us out with that kind of stuff. That's amazing. Speaker 2 (16:40) I was envisioning him in pastry. Speaker 1 (16:42) Yeah, no. Yeah. Too tall. Too