Waist Deep, Love Island Drama & the Sociology of American Cheating with Josh Lora
Prose Society with Eli Rallo
In this episode of Prose Society, host Eli Rallo welcomes sociologist and cultural commentator Josh Lora to discuss his journey from viral book reviewer to influential voice
Key takeaways
- Reality television deserves deeper cultural analysis as it reflects societal norms and power structures.
Main topics
- The sociology of American cheating
- Gender double standards in celebrity scandals
Notable quotes
"I always make a joke where it's like there are like Instagram gays and then there are dinner party gays. And obviously I'm like, well, my strength is in the talking."
Conclusion
Josh Lora's insights reveal how everyday cultural phenomena—from reality TV to friendship
Transcript preview
Speaker 7 (0:00) College football will hijack your weekend, ruin your sleep, and break your heart. And that's why we make the Solid Verbal College Football Show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand. He's Dan Rubenstein. Every week, we preview the games that matter and the storylines that are going to ignite your group chat. And you can join us in the aftermath as we react to what happened, why it matters, and how the sport went completely bonkers. yet again. Listen to the Solid Verbal College Football Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (0:32) In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Petra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide. Dear honeys, this is goodbye. By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 8 (1:03) On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 3 (1:33) I'm Brett Coleman. And I'm Trevor Sykema. If you love football and want to understand what's really happening on the field, check out our show, NFL Pro. Every week, we break down the biggest plays, trends, and matchups using exclusive next-gen stats insights and NFL content you will not find anywhere else. Speaker 8 (1:49) Whether you're new to football, a fantasy football fanatic, or a diehard fan, NFL Pro will help you analyze the game like a pro. Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Speaker 4 (2:05) new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. It is in the name, NFL Daily. You'll have fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. That game-winning drive. Maybe it's Herbert. Maybe it's Geno. Maybe it's Mahomes. We'll have the highlights. If Fernando Mendoza or any of the rookies are balling out, we'll break down the tape. Join me, Greg Rosenthal, and an all-star cast of co-hosts as we preview and recap every game. Listen to NFL Daily. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 5 (2:46) Welcome back to our Readers and Listeners to Pro Society podcast. I'm so excited for our guests today. This is our second ever guest episode. And you guys know that while I said I would love to Speaker 1 (2:57) have the authors of the books that we're reading as guests, I would also love to have... people who read who I admire on the podcast, and that is definitely who we have with us today. Our guest is one of my favorite people on the For You page, which I am a member of religiously, as you guys know. Josh is a writer, content creator, and reader who makes content across TikTok and Substack. And if you're not watching, not reading, you're missing out about books, culture, and sociology. He has an MS in social research from Hunter College and enjoys identifying cultural shifts and applying theoretical frameworks toward popular media and societal trends. Yes, he's as smart as that sounds, by the way. He's contributed to various media sites like Forbes and is so deeply intelligent. And I am so excited to chat with him today about all things culture, society, and of course, our September book pick. waist deep which Speaker 5 (3:44) I am obsessed with. So Josh welcome to the show. Thank you for having Speaker 2 (3:49) me this is so exciting. I'm Speaker 5 (3:50) like dying when I hear your voice in person because your videos are the type of thing that I put on my phone while I'm like doing chores or something around the house and I just listen to you talk because they're like more long form. Yeah. So I don't need to like sit there and watch for five minutes I can listen to what you're saying while I'm like you know doing something real quick so your voice is like a part of my daily life. Speaker 2 (4:09) That's so nice. Thank you. You are not the first person to say that. I've had multiple people tell me they do like their makeup. Yeah. My videos, they just like put the video down. And I'm like, OK, maybe I should spend less time like looking up pictures and stuff for the videos because people aren't like looking at the phone. But it's great. I know I'm like one of the only people on TikTok doing like six minute long videos where I'm like. Let's break down the double bind of consciousness for women. But like somebody has to do it. Speaker 5 (4:30) No, somebody has to do it. First of all. Second of all, I prefer long form content. And I know that's not like long form, but in the TikTok verse, like Speaker 2 (4:37) on TikTok, it is long Speaker 5 (4:38) form. My manager the other day was like, I think Vine's coming back. And I go, oh, I won't be doing that. And she goes, I mean, yeah, you in seven second content doesn't really like Vibe. I'm like, no, what would I say in seven seconds? There's Speaker 2 (4:48) nothing to say. You stand there, you smile and you leave. Speaker 5 (4:50) You have to be hot to do Vibe. And I think they really, really conventionally hot. And I'm like, I'm not there. So like, I'm just going to. keep talking. That's my strong suit. Speaker 2 (4:57) No, literally. I always make a joke where it's like there are like Instagram gays and then there are dinner party gays. And obviously I'm like, well, my strength is in the talking. Like that's what's Speaker 5 (5:06) giving Speaker 2 (5:06) me my career. But Speaker 5 (5:07) you're a bit of both Speaker 2 (5:07) to me. Oh, thank you. But like my career and like going to school and doing all this stuff, it's very nice to be sort of like respected and that people appreciate all this stuff. Because like imagine I was making these six minute long videos that nobody watched. That'd be devastating. So at Speaker 5 (5:20) least at least the girls are clocking in while they do their makeup. Thank Speaker 2 (5:23) you. Speaker 5 (5:24) If it wasn't New York for you, would you live in like London or L.A. or is it like New York or nowhere? Speaker 2 (5:28) I always thought that I would always be here, but I really love Madrid. I have a cousin who lives in Madrid and it's great. But then it's one of those things where it's like, do I love Madrid or do I love because like my cousin lives in the middle of the city and it's like chic. Or I do love London. I've been there twice. The first time I went, I was there for like two weeks. So I was like, I saw everything. I did everything. It was amazing. I unfortunately can't live in L.A. because I can't drive. So no L.A. for me. It's gorgeous, though. But it's again, when you go on vacation, you're like, this is so nice. I could live here. And it's like, babe, you're Speaker 5 (5:57) on a trip. Right. Like I'm not driving five days a week Speaker 2 (6:00) up and down like the coastline or whatever. So I I respect everyone who chooses that journey. But it is not my journey. For Speaker 5 (6:07) me, it's. The thing about L.A. is like I would love to live there, but I would never leave the house. I'm quite a homebody. And there's something about New York and even in Texas where like you have to leave the house. But something about L.A., it's like things are kind of difficult, like with the driving and like. Speaker 1 (6:22) In order to go here, it takes so long. I just feel like I would just be like, I can't do it. Like, I don't have that type of personality that would thrive in like having to be like a self-starter socializing. Speaker 2 (6:31) A hundred percent. And also, like, I just don't have the time where it's like if I know it's going to take me two hours to get somewhere, I'm like, I'm not going. I'm so sorry. Like, love and light. I can't. No, Speaker 1 (6:38) I can't. Do you feel like you read and consume more in the summertime Speaker 5 (6:42) or are you kind of like all year round at the same level? Like, are you a summer reading type or is it really? Speaker 2 (6:48) No, definitely. I'm definitely a summer reading type only because like my favorite activity in the world, I often will like go to a resort and often, but like once a year I'll go to a resort and I'll bring like six books and I'll finish all of them. My favorite thing in life is to like sit down next to a body of water with a book and read the entire thing with like a drink in my hand. Like that is literally happened to me in October. I went to DR and I just did that. I was going to go by myself and then like my friend ended up coming. So that was nice to have somebody to talk to. But I literally finished like. Five books in five days. It was great. Speaker 5 (7:16) Did you see the girl on TikTok that read the Stephen King novel in one day? Speaker 2 (7:20) No. Oh, Speaker 1 (7:21) my God. His Speaker 2 (7:22) books are... Crazy long. It was Speaker 1 (7:23) like this big. If you're not watching, like my hands are really far apart. It was like literally an 800 page book. Speaker 5 (7:29) Oh, girl. Speaker 1 (7:29) And she sits down at 6 a.m. and vlogged herself. And like she didn't obviously vlog. She vlogged the whole thing, but then split it up where like she did checkpoints Speaker 5 (7:37) and then was showing like everything she drank or ate. And it was so crazy because she was sitting in the same spot outside. So it was like the sun came up and then it went down. And I was like, this girl's insane. It took her like 12 hours. It was actually amazing. Speaker 2 (7:46) That's actually really impressive. Yeah. When you finished, I was like, wait, no, that's cool. Like, I really respect that. I finished. The book that we're going to talk about today in like two hours at the pool. I cannot Speaker 1 (7:55) wait to talk to you about the book. But before we do, I'm curious, like, I don't know how you went from lifelong reader, like culture obsessed person to being sort of a cultural commentator on the Internet. What was that trajectory like? Speaker 2 (8:10) It was honestly kind of sudden. So I my first video that I ever made on TikTok four years ago was about the. Rodham book adaptation for Hulu. So in case you don't know, Curtis Sittenfeld wrote this book, Rodham, which was what would happen to Hillary if she never married Clinton. I read it. Yeah, it was great. I loved it. And I think I was like, I'm so excited because Claire Danes Speaker 1 (8:31) is Speaker 2 (8:31) going to be in it. And Hulu picked it up. And then obviously, as the political situation changed, I was like keeping a very close eye on that. It never got made, by the way, guys. It doesn't exist. It was four years ago. I Speaker 5 (8:41) didn't even know it was going to be an adaptation. Yeah. But the fact that it never got made is sad. Speaker 2 (8:44) Yeah. So they canceled it. And then my first viral video, I did a video on Drake's reading stack where he was like, my year of rest and relaxation. The body keeps the score. And I was like, you're not reading these fucking books. I'm sorry. I love you, Drake. You Speaker 1 (8:57) did Speaker 2 (8:57) not Speaker 1 (8:57) read Speaker 5 (8:57) my year of rest and relaxation. Speaker 2 (8:59) My year of rest and relaxation. A Little Life? No, you did not read that, Speaker 5 (9:03) Drake. Speaker 2 (9:03) Sister. No, you did not. No. So then I like sort of blew up then. people started following me. I then went on a like really tyrannical tirade against A Little Life, which got me a lot of followers. And then I got laid off. So I was making four videos a day. And that's I went from like 12 followers to like 40,000 followers in like two months. So that was really shocking. I think I had a friend tell me that like I just say everything with such conviction that she believes me, even if I'm wrong. And I'm like. Oh, yeah, I just have very, very strongly held beliefs and opinions. And I will. I have facts and figures and data. But like, I will take it now. Like, if you guys follow me, you know, if I'm wrong, I'm like, oh, yeah, I was wrong about that. But like a lot of the stuff that I believe and the stuff that I talk about online, I'm like, well, I'm right about this. I Speaker 5 (9:46) think the thing is, you're very sure of yourself and your opinion. So it comes off as Speaker 1 (9:50) authoritative, authoritative, like. I have authority over this. And oftentimes you do. So also when you're wrong, it's not this like embarrassing walking it back. It's like I'm also confident in the fact that I was wrong and I don't feel like embarrassed by that because that's being a person. Yeah. I think that's why you're so fun to follow. Thank you. And even when I disagree with you, like with Wicked, I disagreed Speaker 5 (10:09) with you with the second one. And you know what? There's a lot of personal bias there. Like I can be honest about my personal bias. I love Wicked. I saw Speaker 2 (10:16) the show in high school. I Speaker 5 (10:18) remember watching your second review and being like. Okay. No, I was so excited for it, Speaker 2 (10:23) guys. Like, I literally, I love Wicked, and that's why I went in with such high hopes. Like, it was coming from a place. I, like, in the video, I didn't, like, shit on it. No. It was a Speaker 5 (10:32) great video. I Speaker 2 (10:33) was just, like, I was really disappointed, and I think they added stuff that, like. It didn't need to be three hours. Speaker 5 (10:37) No, it was long. It was long. My brother kind of has a short attention span, so I know when he loves something, it's like the best thing ever. And that's how it was with the first one. Like, he was just so obsessed. Speaker 1 (10:48) And Speaker 5 (10:48) then the second one, he was like, and I was like, yeah, see, that's how I know that people are going to have to take where they're like, that was too long and unnecessary. For me, they could have literally like put like shit on a stick and I would have been like, this is the best thing I've ever Speaker 2 (11:00) seen. Speaker 5 (11:00) And I Speaker 2 (11:01) like, for good, I'm like, well. Just watching them sing that song, I was like, it's worth it. It was worth the price of admission. But I also was like, they squandered all of the goodwill from the first movie, which like it's a masterpiece. Like they did it perfectly. And then going in a year later, I was like, oh, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Speaker 5 (11:18) To bring it back a little bit, just so that you can explain this to people, because like I Speaker 1 (11:22) know what it means, but also want to hear it from you. And in case people don't know what it means, you have your master's in social research. Can you talk to me about. What exactly that means and then how you apply that when you're like making TikToks about an American cheating scandal, for example, which is one of the things that you love to talk about. Speaker 2 (11:37) Yeah, of course. So social research is the combination of sociology. I always like for shorthand when I talk on TikTok, I say I have a master's in sociology. So the MS is a master's of science. I had to do like actual research. I had to do a capstone where I did a qualitative like semester long study on perceptions of women in STEM in media. And I wrote this like 50 page paper on the way that people sort of perceive women who work in, you know, like research fields on television. And that was really interesting. But basically it's applying like real qualitative and quantitative and qualitative analysis and like skills to the work of sociology. I think what a lot of people end up doing is that when you get your bachelor's in social, you can't like do anything with it. Unfortunately, a lot of people end up either becoming academics or like working in HR or just like pivoting out of. academia or like the field. And it's just like the way that the system is set up, unfortunately. And when I went back for my master's in 2016, I was like, I want to work in like television or advertising or something like I want to be able to like do something and they're not going to hire me if I don't have the skill. So I learned how to do like focus groups. Like I literally had to do 25 focus groups to like get my degree. I had to do multiple surveys. I had to take stats every single semester for two years, like advanced stats, like doing max diffs, like all of this crazy stuff that like. I don't know if I use in my day-to-day life, but it's good to have it, right? It's good to like have on the resume. It's good to like be able to speak to it. And then bringing it back to the American cheating point. So when you take six years at this point, because I was a social major in undergrad, six years of theory, you like have the underpinning where you're just like, well, the way that my brain works, it's sort of like a filing cabinet where I'm like, oh, this reminds me of this. This reminds me of this. So when I talk about American cheating, I'm thinking about the sort of tenets of what they call white supremacy culture in the US, like being descended from. wasps the culture. So when you talk about like norms and mores, you're talking about like the overall underpinning. Obviously, we are not wasps, neither one of us. But when you talk about wasp culture, this idea that like in American culture to ruffle feathers is seen as bad, right? You can't be the disruptor. That's why like think about Me Too scandals, the way that women who speak out against wrongdoing are like terrorized. That is like white supremacy culture at work. It's called the right to comfort. It's called the fear of open conflict. And when I talk about American cheating, I'm talking about the marriage of those two things where I'm like, well, you did cheat. But like I'm the bad guy for bringing it up, right? It's this idea that like because these people have sort of sandpapered over their previous relationships, fear of open conflict, nobody's ever going to like bring it up to them. And then the media, of course, helps them, which is like the second. That's what I've really discovered doing this for four years where I'm like. oh, like the media is helping them, right? Like I think American cheating started out as this like really fun study of like, it was gossip, honestly. Yeah. It was gossip. But it then ended up actually becoming a study on power and like power as an apparatus. And I've been like really sort of intrigued by the way that like, depending on how rich you are, depending on how famous you are, there are people who just like get away with stuff, which feels obvious. But like having all of this like evidence of it is just really interesting. Speaker 1 (14:36) It's also interesting to me. Well, first of all, like you're so brilliant. That's just. So interesting. And I love the way that you said your brain works like a file cabinet and you sort of pull files that remind you of different things. But it also like triggers the thought that I think in American culture, like cheating is seen as also like such this like horrible thing. And I've never cheated and I don't think cheating is like, OK, I'm not like saying yay cheating. But like cheating is seen as a worse offense in many instances than like things that I would consider far worse. You know what I'm saying? Like there are like. male artists out there who are doing the worst stuff like Chris Brown. And then we have like a female celebrity cheats on her husband or her boyfriend. And all of a sudden it's like she literally should wear the Scarlet Letter and we just don't her in the square. And I'm sort of like, wait a second, Chris Brown just won a Grammy. Like Sean Penn Speaker 2 (15:29) won an Oscar. Like it's stuff like that. That's really. And I think when I talk about like reality TV and stuff, I do a lot of this stuff, too, where I'm like, look at. Ariana Maddox look at like the way that a lot of women, Chrishell on Selling Sunset, a lot of women are just villainized because American culture is unfortunately so deeply misogynistic. But it is honestly shocking. I think cheating, when I talked about Gone Girl, I talked about this. Cheating is seen as this like interpersonal sin because it is so close to home. Like even if you've never been cheated on, which I haven't, thank God. And I'm sorry if that has happened to you. It's like. so visceral because you can just like imagine it right all of us have experience with infidelity in one way or another and the way that I sort of ended up talking about this so when I got my degree not to loop back around but like when I got my degree um I studied like marriage and divorce so I wrote many many many papers on marriage and unfortunately when you study marriage and sociology you study cheating like it just it goes part and parcel right like it is one of those things that just like keeps coming up but again it is like a really sore spot when I read um The State of Affairs in Grad School by Esther Perel. That was really interesting to me as a book rec, if you guys want it. It was really interesting because she is a famous, famous, like, clinical psychotherapist. And she believes that, like, cheating is like a tantrum, like a child throwing a tantrum, where it's not actually about your partner. It's about you, right? You need more attention. You need more love. You need more sex. You need more, et cetera. And I think that's really hard for people to hear because I remember when I read the book in 2017. I was like, she's evil. Let's kill her. Like she's condoning affairs. And then I think now 10 years later where I'm obviously much older, I've been doing this for a long time. I just like have a very different perspective. And I think also like TikTok, being on TikTok and seeing the way that a lot of people much younger than us sort of are like every interpersonal crime should be, you should be arrested. You should be shot. You should be like, you should lose your job for cheating. I'm like, guys, this is an interpersonal crime. Like it sucks and it's very hurtful and devastating, but like lose your job. Speaker 1 (17:21) Also, it's like. The same way I feel when someone goes on TikTok and is like, she is so mean. And I'm like, is mean a cancelable offense? Like, you think someone should lose their job because they're mean? Like, I don't think anyone should be mean. But being mean, being a mean girl is not a cancelable offense. I'm sorry. It's just not. Like, being mean, like, I don't Speaker 4 (17:44) want Speaker 1 (17:44) to be that person's friend. I'm not welcoming that person into my home. But being mean doesn't mean you should lose your job. Being mean doesn't mean you should be arrested. Like, again, it's sort of like an interpersonal crime. That's a really good phrase, a way to put it. But I see that all the time. Like, she's so mean. Speaker 5 (18:00) Or like, Speaker 1 (18:00) this influencer was so mean. And I'm like, first of all, did you think she was nice? I'm like, sorry. Like, look at the girl. Like, you thought that girl was Speaker 5 (18:07) nice? Like, I don't know. Like, you know what I'm saying? Speaker 2 (18:10) I see what you're saying 100%. I think it is also very much different for women. Like, I. Yeah. Not mansplaining. I'm saying like, you know, it's just like the judgment level is so much higher if you're like seen as mean as a woman. And it's just crazy because I think I've written about this on Substack as well. When you put yourself, I think, sorry, now I'm going to like preach to you guys. I need it. When you preach, when you preach, when you position yourself as like a permanent victim, you sort of lose the ability to see that one day you will hurt someone's feelings, right? Like when you talk about friendship breakups or when you talk about. A breakup or when you talk about like anything that's happened to you, if you're always in this like defensive crouch of like this person is evil and they have to be canceled, they have to be removed from the friend group. This happens a lot in queer friend groups. You have to be kicked out. We can