Amy Chozick: Trading Politics for Fiction, Pub Day Jitters, and Writing Her Debut Novel

Prose Society with Eli Rallo - iHeartPodcasts

In this episode of Prose Society, journalist and author Amy Chozick discusses her transition from political journalism to fiction writing, reflecting on the emotional release of publishing her debut

Key takeaways

• Transitioning from nonfiction journalism to fiction offered Amy Chozick emotional distance and a sense of freedom from personal scrutiny.
• The intense online harassment faced by female political journalists underscores the need for resilience and mental boundaries.

Main topics

• Transition from journalism to fiction writing
• Emotional impact of public scrutiny as a female political journalist

Notable quotes

"I wrote a novel. I can just talk to book people about fiction writing and it feels like a gift."

Conclusion

Amy Chozick's journey from political journalist to debut novelist illustrates the transformative power of creative

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:07) Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Prose Society. I'm so excited because we have our first guest interview today, and this is a big one. I've been very excited to get face to face with this person. We have Amy Chozik with us. She is an American journalist, author, and screenwriter who has the most illustrious career, you guys. She's worked as a reporter for The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. She's the author of Chasing Hillary, which is a memoir about covering Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton's 2008 and 2016 campaign for president, which was then adapted into the HBO Max series The Girls on the Bus. It is very phenomenal. So if you haven't read it, I recommend. Her work has been seen in Vanity Fair, Vogue and other publications. And most recently, she released her debut novel with Friends Like You, which is our book pick. for August. So please welcome Amy Chozik to the show. Hello. Hi, it's so good to be here. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you're here. And this is coming out in a few weeks, but we are recording today on her pub day. Yes, pub day. How are you feeling? My first Speaker 2 (1:08) stop on my pub day. You're the best. Oh my God, that's awesome. Your early support for the book meant everything. Wait, I like that Speaker 1 (1:14) they don't have you up like at like five o'clock in the morning on pub day. I know. It's 10. So we're kind of killing it. How are you feeling? Speaker 2 (1:21) I feel good. So good. You know, my last book, as you mentioned, was about politics. So it was like very heated and contentious and a lot of debate. And I'm like, I wrote a novel. I can just talk to book people about fiction writing and it feels like a gift. There's kind of such a. Speaker 1 (1:39) breath of fresh air to write fiction after writing about yourself. Because for those of you who don't know, yes, the book is about Hillary Clinton, but it's a memoir. It's also about you and sort of your relationship to her. So that is very like vulnerable. And when people are like having a negative feeling about it or a controversial feeling about it, like as they do and did with any book, of course, it feels like a personal attack. Yeah. In a way that for fiction, it's like, OK, you didn't like it, whatever. It's not about me. Right. Speaker 2 (2:06) Yes, that's definitely true. And like, yeah, my first book was sort of I think of it as Julia and Julia, but politics instead of cooking, you know, is very much about how this like famous woman took over my life. So it was super personal. I think anyone who's been a journalist as a woman and especially a political journalist while female is kind of develops a thick skin. But certainly those those attacks and criticism stick. I Speaker 1 (2:30) mean, speaking of developing a thick skin like. People think that like, you know, the Internet is the worst place for a content creator. But as you said, a political journalist and as a woman, I feel like that type of a vitriol like might be the highest level. How did you develop that thick skin? Well, Speaker 2 (2:49) I always told myself, you know, I'm not covering. There are reporters who are sent in to cover conflict zones and really dangerous places in the world. So it's like. The Internet is being mean like I'm fine. Like, you know, but but like, no, it definitely I would get hate mail to my house sometimes. And and I my information was in some of those. Remember when there were those data dumps of the DNC and so like that is something like no one should have to experience and is really horrible. Now I live in Los Angeles and it's so easy to just like delete Twitter or shut off my phone and go to the farmer's market or like a hike. I feel like there's something about just kind of being outside of the. the newsroom and New York and all of that. I don't know. L.A. can feel like very easy to kind of shut off. Speaker 1 (3:30) That's so interesting. But you're right. Like New York does sort of like when you're getting hate on the Internet and you're in New York, it kind of feels like you're walking around and everyone knows something. Even though that's not the case at all. Exactly. I guess it just incubates like New York has like an energy to it for better and for worse. Yeah. Whereas when you're in L.A., you can kind of be like, yeah, I'm going to delete Twitter. and have an air one smoothie like I'm gonna be fine I'm gonna try Speaker 2 (3:54) the $12 water that they're now selling at air one and just yeah I would Speaker 1 (3:58) probably buy it as well I have such an air one problem when I'm Speaker 2 (4:01) in Speaker 1 (4:01) LA I Speaker 2 (4:01) do have Speaker 1 (4:01) a membership I do I would it adds up I would like I like hate to be basic but it's good it's really good it's just good those Speaker 2 (4:10) breakfast burritos are they're just good also Speaker 1 (4:13) I have an allergy and when you have an allergy to find a place that Oh, everything is gluten-free. Yes. So I'm like, celiac, bring it on. Yeah, they're like, hell yeah. And I'm like, okay, so I'm going to go to Erewhon. Yeah, Speaker 2 (4:24) and you probably grew up with not that many options. No. You can really be a celiac or whatever and have a lot of options that are delicious. Speaker 1 (4:30) What? Brought on the move to L.A. When did that happen for you? Well, so I sold Speaker 2 (4:35) the rights to Chasing Hillary to adapt it into a series. So I was go I was pretty much bi-coastal adapting that when I had a brand new baby. So I was already like, why am I pushing a stroller through the snow? Maybe L.A. I was kind of intrigued by L.A. But then COVID happened. We were in a little apartment with a baby. And then I was adapting this book full time in a writer's room and show running with my partner, Julie Plec. So we decided to move to L.A. Speaker 1 (5:00) I have so many questions for you. Speaker 2 (5:02) About Speaker 1 (5:02) four years ago. Like, we're going to talk about this book, but I was just so excited to be with you because I think you're so brilliant. Oh, me too. I'm curious about when you're going to adapt something. I think that intrigues so many people. How do you decide how involved that you want or wanted to be? Was it always like, I want to show run, I want to be in that writer's room. I can't let go of this. It's my baby. Or was there a conversation of like, maybe I'll be a producer? Speaker 2 (5:24) Yeah, I think it's like depends author to author. Like there's definitely really brilliant novelists who want to continue to be novelists and sell their work. And I've actually adapted other authors. work. Not necessarily every novelist wants to be that involved. I really did. When I was a journalist, I got to be a fly on the wall in all kinds of careers. And the only career where I was like, this seems cool, was when I was in a Hollywood writer's room. I think it was for The Good Wife. And there were all these smart people talking about making up stories. And there were free snacks everywhere. And I just thought, this looks amazing. It's like an MFA program that you get paid for. So that was the only job that really intrigued me besides being a journalist. So I did think, when I adapted it, like, I really want to be involved in this. And luckily, Greg Berlanti, who's the producer, really liked my voice and wanted it to kind of translate to screen. Of course, there was, like, so much I didn't know. So I paired, I partnered with Julie Plec, who created Vampire Diaries and a bunch of other shows. And she sort of taught me how to write. Because there's a lot, not just in the writing of the script that, like, novelists or journalists don't know, but also, like, you're running, if you're Speaker 1 (6:26) a Speaker 2 (6:26) showrunner, you're managing a huge operation. It's like 400 people and millions of dollars in budget. There's like so much that I didn't know. So I learned I definitely like wanted to go all in and learn about it and then, you know, try to make that my new career. You Speaker 1 (6:40) kind of like beautifully segued me into my next question, which is I read that you originally wanted to major in journalism, but then you left that major after three weeks, which I find so interesting because you're an incredibly successful journalist. Like I would say anybody who wants to go into journalism would envy the career that you've had. What was your first love? Like what was the reason that you stepped away and came back? Speaker 2 (7:02) It's interesting. I always wanted to be a writer. So I like studied poetry in college. I took a bunch of MFA classes. But I had to make writing a job that actually paid me. I wasn't going to move to New York and be a poet. So I thought journalism sounded really interesting. It's writing. It's meeting interesting people. And I really do think it's like the best job in the world. But when I was majoring in it, it doesn't feel – and journalism used to not be a job that you had to have even a college degree for. Like it used to be a very like working class job. even when I was in my first job at The Wall Street Journal, some of the older journalists who were like award winning Pulitzer win, they didn't go to college. It was very much a trade. Like you started interning at your local paper. You were maybe on the night beat and then you were on the cop beat and you just like worked your way up. And it was that apprenticeship model. Like now I think it's really sad that local there isn't as much local media to work your way up in. And I also think newsrooms are like really financially strapped. So they have less of a. Kind of at the Wall Street Journal, I learned so much. They had all of these assistants and interns and they trained you to be a journalist. So it didn't feel like something I needed to study. It felt like something I just needed to do and start to learn, which was, I think, a privilege. Speaker 1 (8:10) You went to Columbia, right? I did. And I agree with you. I mean, the reason I went to Columbia is because Michigan, where I went to college, they don't have a journalism major. So I majored in. playwriting and performing arts management because I also wanted to be a writer. So Speaker 2 (8:23) you have Speaker 1 (8:23) like a Speaker 2 (8:23) similar creative. But then Speaker 1 (8:25) I was like, OK, but I think I need I didn't have any newsroom experience graduating. I was like, I think I want to be a journalist. So it's kind of similarly. I was like, let me get some experience. But after my time at Columbia, and this is no shade. I think if you want to be a data journalist, a photo journalist, a video journalist, that type of education can be really helpful. Yeah. Unnecessary. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:43) Interesting. So I got into Columbia. Columbia was my dream. I got into Columbia. I was on the wait list. And then I found out I got in, but I'd already gotten the job as a news assistant at The Wall Street Journal. And I was like, well, this is probably the job I'd want after going to Columbia. So, I mean, I still have dreams of walking around that campus and I never got to do that. It's gorgeous. And I think that Speaker 1 (9:02) was like the win from my perspective Speaker 2 (9:04) of going there. And Speaker 1 (9:05) just Speaker 2 (9:05) being in New York and like meeting, having contacts is great. Speaker 1 (9:08) It's great. It's great. I loved my professors and everything. But if I had Speaker 2 (9:12) gotten the job that I applied for at The Wall Street Journal, I would Speaker 1 (9:15) have done what you did. and taken the job. Well, I was Speaker 2 (9:17) grateful I didn't come out with a pile of debt. So that was Speaker 1 (9:19) good. I mean, you have. multiple creative passions and outlets like journalism, nonfiction writing, now this fiction book. How do you balance that? And you even mentioned poetry. I mean, they're such different mediums. How do you balance it and like turn one part off to turn the other part on? Speaker 2 (9:35) It's funny. I always say that I have a bunch of invisible, invisible, imaginary friends. I have a bunch of imaginary friends in my head and I have to like, I do need a little bit of a palate cleanser between them. Like I'm working on different TV projects right now. I'm in a writer's room for an upcoming HBO Max. HBO Max family drama. And then I'm also developing the Nanny Diaries into a Netflix series. I've got my novel. So like when I pivot from project to project, I need to like go on a hike or maybe it's just a drive. But I do need to like get into the different world in my head because it can be very hard. I can't just like close one document and then I'm in a legal show and then I'm in a bit. I need to live with those characters. So I do need a little bit of a cleanse. But I Speaker 1 (10:16) also suppose it's just like. natural talent. Like, unfortunately, like you probably don't have advice for like, how do you be emotionally hyphenate creative? It's like, well, I just need some time in between projects, but then I can just whip out the next one. You know, no, Speaker 2 (10:27) I do feel like I can like I can write in a lot of different voices. Like I have a show about a lawyer, a 60 year old male lawyer, you know, and I feel like I can master Lonnie's voice as well as I so I feel like I am adaptable in terms of like writing different voices. But I really don't think it's I think it's just work like my. late mentor David Carr at the New York Times used to say, keep typing until it turns into writing. So I think a lot of it is just like the hours you put in, you know, like I will write something very, very bad, but at least I'm typing. I will it will turn into writing eventually. So sometimes I just think of it as like a work ethic thing more than a that's Speaker 1 (11:02) really good. I also feel similarly whenever people ask, like, what's your dream writing routine? I'm like. If you're going to do it as work, you kind of can't have one. Like if you're on a deadline and you travel a lot and you have other stuff going on, you can't have this like romantic, perfect, idyllic writing routine because then you're never going to get it done. And it's a. job. Exactly. Exactly. So I can tell from Speaker 2 (11:26) your Instagram, like you treat it like a job. It's a work. Speaker 1 (11:29) I think I had to. I mean, like it was always so romantic to me. Right. Like, especially when you're like a little kid and that's like what you want to do when you wake up and there's a view and you have your coffee and your great mug and you think about like Toni Morrison and Margaret Atwood and like all of these greats and like they're. beautiful like writing offices and I would wake up with the sunrise and all of these wonderful things. But then you also realize like it was work for them, too. Oh, Toni Speaker 2 (11:53) Morrison has talked about having being a single mom to two young children and writing in between loads of laundry. And that really inspired me. Yeah. And I also think I do think it is a female thing. Like I am sometimes like folding my child's like underwear when I need to be writing. And I'm like, do you think Cormac McCarthy ever folded his kids? Like, do you think he ever did Speaker 1 (12:11) anything when he needed to be writing? No, Speaker 2 (12:14) but it's like we just. You work it into your day. I mean, I would love to have some beautiful writer routine. Speaker 1 (12:20) Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:21) I do have a nice coffee mug that I got at an estate sale. I love that. And that's a part of it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (12:27) No, there's little things. I always say like my dream. writing like routine is to be at a hotel bar. And I'm lucky for how much I travel because hotel bars can come into my life often. But like that would be like on a perfect writing day. I'm at a hotel bar. But that can't always happen. You order like a steak free. You've got Speaker 2 (12:44) your glass of champagne. You've got your. Yes. And you're maybe in Paris. Let's go to Paris. You Speaker 1 (12:51) have Speaker 2 (12:52) a pub day to Speaker 1 (12:53) get to a pub Speaker 2 (12:53) week. I also like I spent most of my career like writing in on the floor of high school gyms during campaign round. I would write like I would write a front page story on the back of a bus with spotty Wi-Fi. So it's like I didn't get the luxury of writing like like forget the beautiful office much like I didn't even have a stable Wi-Fi. We'd be like taking off. We're about to be wheels up and I had to file a story. So like you really can't. I think it's a good it's good training as a journalist, too, because you can't get too precious. It's like because you could work on a book forever. It's never good enough. Right. Speaker 1 (13:23) At Speaker 2 (13:23) some Speaker 1 (13:23) point you're like, I got to get this baby in and move on to the next thing. Exactly. I mean, you. Have such a intense career in political reporting. I mean, you started with Clinton and Obama in 2008. Then you moved to The New York Times in 2011, worked on a corporate media beat, if I'm correct. And then you moved back to politics in 2013, obviously wound up lead correspondent covering Hillary's campaign in 2016. That is crazy. Feels like another life. Speaker 2 (13:46) Amazing. Speaker 1 (13:46) What Speaker 2 (13:46) drew Speaker 1 (13:47) you to political reporting? Like, it is so intense. What drew you to that? I Speaker 2 (13:54) don't I wish I could say it was. There are definitely a lot of brilliant colleagues of mine who have always been political junkies. And this is what they always wanted to do. I did not think of journalism that way. So. Jill Abramson, who was the first female executive editor at The New York Times, told me to think of The New York Times as the ultimate buffet for a writer. You could do a book review. You could be a food critic. You could cover politics. You could be a foreign correspondent. Like it was a real buffet. And I think I partook in the buffet. I kind of want to Speaker 1 (14:20) work at The New York Times now. Now that I've heard about the buffet. Yeah, Speaker 2 (14:23) the buffet. So I think I think you partake in the buffet, though, in your own way. But so I was a foreign correspondent in Japan, in Tokyo, and my boss, who was the. The foreign editor became the Washington bureau chief. And he said, how would you like to go to Iowa and cover Hillary Clinton, who in 2008 was like going to be, you know, the next the first female president? We're writing this all the way to the White House. You know, I thought that twice. So so it was much less like I love politics, more like I want to be where the action is. I want to be where the story is. This sounds really cool. And so I think it was more that. And I and even for all the kind of downside and hard things about. Covering politics, I went to all 50 states. I went to Hawaii on Air Force One with the Obamas. Like, you get to do such incredible things and also talk to people all over the country. You know, I think we can get really in our bubbles online and in real life. And it's like, I'm just talking to people at rallies in Iowa or at a county fair in Ohio. You know, I think there's a real privilege of seeing the country that way. Speaker 1 (15:23) What's Michelle like? She's great. Yeah, she just seems so, like. beautiful and like smart and nice. Yeah. That is somebody I would love to meet. Like I would love to meet Michelle Obama. I feel Speaker 2 (15:34) like this could happen for you. Speaker 1 (15:35) I have like a list of people that I would love to meet. I feel like she's definitely on there. Yeah, that could happen Speaker 2 (15:39) for you for sure. So Speaker 1 (15:40) cool. I feel like though in I feel like she's one of those people that if I met, I'd be like, oh, my God, like you're like, you know, you see somebody for like all of your life. Like I feel like I don't know my life without the Obamas. Like it's just in my head. Yeah. I think, 10 years old in 2008. So it's like just crazy. Speaker 2 (15:57) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (15:58) the girls were so little when I Speaker 2 (15:59) started covering them. Like they were like Speaker 1 (16:01) little girls. So cute. And Speaker 2 (16:03) the Speaker 1 (16:03) dogs were really cute. Just so sweet. The Speaker 2 (16:05) Portuguese water Speaker 1 (16:05) dogs. I miss them. Do you have any regrets? I don't want to know. I don't want to say regrets, but like, do you have anything you wish you covered