Miranda Lambert on Mentoring Ella Langley, Reconciling with Kacey Musgraves & Country’s New Era

Popcast

Miranda Lambert joins Popcast to discuss her new playful, country-disco album "Crisco," her record-breaking co-writing credit on Ella Langle

Key takeaways

• Miranda Lambert co-wrote and co-produced Ella Langley's
• which became the longest-running Billboard number-one hit of all time.
• Her new album
• embraces a 70s/80s country-disco sound, featuring strings and disco balls to capture a joyful, groove-driven vibe.
• Lambert reflects on the scarcity of female country stars in the 2010s, noting how streaming and TikTok have finally created space for diverse voices.
• She reconciled with Kacey Musgraves for their duet
• framing it as letting go of

Main topics

• Country music industry evolution for women
• Album production and creative freedom
• Mentorship and passing the torch

Notable quotes

"I don't have the energy to like anymore to be so grudgy and like hold on to things that don't matter."

Conclusion

The episode offers a candid look at Lambert's artistic maturation, her commitment to uplifting fellow female

Transcript preview

Speaker 5 (0:00) Hey, it's Anna Martin from The New York Times. What if I told you you'll never have to hear this line again? Speaker 1 (0:06) Wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 5 (0:08) Yeah, no, I actually can't tell you that. But you know what I can tell you? A place I think you might want to go. It's the Shows tab in The New York Times app. The place to listen to and now watch full episodes of New York Times shows. The Shows tab. Find it in The New York Times app. Explore The Shows tab and follow a show today. Speaker 2 (0:28) What are we drinking? Yeah, so Speaker 4 (0:30) y'all are my last thing of the day and I call it charm juice. It's Tito's and soda Because it helps me have to harm sometimes especially after a long press day, Speaker 2 (0:38) whatever your charm juice is Don't spill Speaker 3 (0:53) Welcome to the New York Times Popcast, your two things can be true of weekly culture chat. I'm John Karamonica. I'm the critic. Speaker 2 (0:59) I'm Joe Cuscarelli, and I'm the reporter. Speaker 4 (1:02) I'm Miranda Lambert, and I'm on Popcast. Speaker 2 (1:04) Oh. I Speaker 3 (1:05) already Speaker 2 (1:06) cursed. Speaker 3 (1:07) Already cursed. First five seconds. Unbelievable. That's how excited we are to have you here. Speaker 2 (1:10) Miranda Lambert is a country superstar and songwriter. Speaker 1 (1:15) Go on. No. For Speaker 2 (1:19) two decades now, Miranda has been blessing us with hits like Gunpowder and Lead. Speaker 2 (1:30) Kerosene. Speaker 2 (1:35) The house that built me. Speaker 1 (1:39) Can't go home. Speaker 2 (1:40) Personal favorite of mine, In His Arms from the Marfa Tapes. Speaker 4 (1:44) Oh, thank you. That's one of my personal favorites. Really? That's Speaker 2 (1:47) like that one. I mean, the re-recording is nice, but the Speaker 4 (1:50) Marfa Speaker 2 (1:51) Tapes version. Speaker 2 (1:56) Vice, another banger. I was just listening this morning. I mean, I've been listening to your music since I Speaker 4 (2:03) was Speaker 2 (2:03) a teenager. Can I get out? Me and Charlie talking? Speaker 2 (2:10) Oh, that's Speaker 1 (2:11) OG. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can Speaker 2 (2:12) we just get in on it while we're here? Miranda Lambert has had a huge year as the co-writer and co-producer of Ella Langley's Choose in Texas. Speaker 4 (2:27) Which Speaker 2 (2:28) is now the longest running Billboard number one hit of all time. Speaker 4 (2:31) Which is insane. Speaker 2 (2:32) It's bonkers. Speaker 4 (2:33) It's bonkers. It's Speaker 2 (2:35) literally bonkers. Speaker 4 (2:35) Yes, and it's country. It's so country. Speaker 2 (2:38) It's so country. You have a new album coming out, Crisco, October 2nd. Yes. Speaker 3 (2:43) Before we continue, a bit of good news. If you are not already subscribed to the New York Times, you can download the app now. You get the first month totally free. No paywalls. Get involved. Speaker 4 (2:55) Got the plugs in right there. Speaker 3 (2:56) We get them at the top. And while we're plugging, Speaker 2 (3:00) before we jump in with Miranda Lambert, if you have not yet subscribed to the podcast, press the button, get in the comments, turn on alerts, follow us on Instagram, on TikTok, right? Follow Miranda Lambert while you're there. And Speaker 4 (3:11) if you can't say something nice. Don't say nothing at all. Speaker 2 (3:14) Don't tell our commenters that because then we'll have no commenters left. Have you met our commenters? I figured that's Speaker 4 (3:20) why I said it. Speaker 2 (3:22) Miranda Lambert, thank you so much for being here. Speaker 4 (3:23) Thanks for having me. Speaker 3 (3:24) Look, we're going to get to the Ella of it all, the Choose in Texas of it all, but I want to talk about Crisco and I want to talk about the sonics of this album, especially compared to the last two or three Miranda Lambert projects. This album feels playful. The production, obviously, we're hearkening back to some 70s and 80s tempo-driven country music, which went away for a long time and then came back in kind of, I would say, weirdly bastardized form in the 2010s. But now I feel like we're really back to the kind of the brass tacks of it from how it was 40 years ago. Why did you choose this sound for this album at this time? Speaker 4 (4:04) You know, it's kind of a layered. Explanation but I have a song that I wrote with Chris Stapleton and my friend Jesse Frazier called song the thing we put that out and we filmed the video at the Brentwood skate rink in roller skates Speaker 4 (4:26) It was very, very 70s, 80s, like hardcore go all the way there. And it really kind of set us on this journey. Like my co-writer and co-producer, Jesse Frazier, that's his wheelhouse. And so I was like, let's write a few more of these. And in the meantime, someone had said the term to me, country disco is Crisco. And I was like, I love that. Speaker 1 (4:54) Yeah, yeah. That is Speaker 3 (4:55) real country. Speaker 4 (4:56) Yeah. Also, my grandma had that in her kitchen my entire life. So sometimes I have to explain what Crisco is. No, I'm old. Yeah, we got it. We got it. Affectionately. Yeah. And so, I don't know. We just started writing a few songs. We wrote Crisco and we wrote Whiskey Business and with our friend Aaron Raytier. And I was like, you know what? We should just like write a few more and like do an EP just for fun. Like I'm ready to have fun. Like I feel like. you know, 23 years almost in the industry, like earn me some creative freedom. I hope, you know, and after we wrote those two or three, I was like, no, this has to be a whole record. I'm having way too much fun. And I wanted to use strings. I've never recorded with strings. We cranked it out. We finished writing for it. And, um, It was just one of the most joyful. Times in the studio I've ever had Jesse like decked it out. He's a DJ. He's amazing DJ, too So he's he's about a vibe. Speaker 1 (5:50) I Speaker 4 (5:50) love a vibe and we had disco balls and then you know Just like it felt fun. Like there's some really there's a lot of different layers to this record Most of its joyful most of its fun. There's some like Patsy and Tammy moments. There's a few of those tearing your voice ballads, but the majority of it is just like a groove. It makes you feel good. It makes you want to drive. Mostly makes you want to skate. Speaker 2 (6:15) We were talking about driving to this record earlier today when we put it on in the room. I'm so interested because it's both a very trendy au courant sound to new listeners to country, right? They know Kacey Musgraves and her sort of blending of country and disco. But then if you go a little deeper, and especially on Crisco, the title track, you reference Islands in the Stream. We do. Speaker 2 (6:46) Our dearly departed Dolly Parton died recently. You talk about the 70s. Talk a little bit about the history of country and what you came up on and this idea that country disco isn't new. In fact, it's Speaker 4 (6:59) absolutely not new. Like, Island's in the Stream, Glen Campbell was such a big inspiration for this, too. And it's got some Bee Gees vibes. It's got some Roseanne Cash. We have a Jim Croce cover on this. It's one of those kind of... places in country music I've never personally explored. You know, I've been more of a three chords in the truth, moral Haggard girl. Speaker 1 (7:20) And Speaker 4 (7:20) it was like, it's time. I love all that. I just never did it or tried it or tried to bring it back. And like, why not? Speaker 3 (7:28) You frame this in terms of creative freedom, but it's interesting because a lot of times I think that when an artist, you know, 10, 20 years in their careers, like I'm really exploring creative freedom. A lot of times they're saying is I want to do something that's like so personal and small and I'd wish to be away. But your creative freedom is actually what if we made a sound that actually is like heading back towards the center of country music and the center of American popular consciousness right now. Why was this an area that you felt like you couldn't or didn't tap into earlier in your career? I'm Speaker 4 (7:58) not really sure why I didn't earlier. I just also got to do the Marva tapes that you mentioned earlier, which is one of my favorite projects I've ever done. It's like literally one take in the desert on a phone, basically. It's lo Speaker 2 (8:12) -fi. That's the sort of stripped down creative freedom that John, I think, was referring to. It's Speaker 4 (8:16) literally the most raw and real thing. And so that, like, fulfilled that spot in my soul. Like, that singer-songwriter stripped it down. And then, like, I don't know. I just felt like... I've never got to record with strings like that. It's fun to have a first 22 years in we're doing a show in Nashville where we're doing my entire catalog with strings and I've never done it and I just think it it feels important and it's emotional and so like this record set me up to do that and You know, I think The drama of it all too. Like I've spent a lot of time like in my career burning people's houses down and waiting behind the door with a shotgun and cigarette and Speaker 1 (8:58) then Speaker 4 (8:58) like you know crying the house that built me and it's like i've felt like i've lived a lot of the i've lived a lot of the stories that i've written about but i've never like really gone full joy i Speaker 2 (9:10) mean does that mean you're in a moment of full joy yeah i Speaker 4 (9:14) think i just feel like you could take a breath and go okay i did the damn thing i have an amazing like uh catalog that I can be so proud of when I sit and think about it. It's like, oh, dang, I've been doing this a while because I started really young. I started at 19 and I have a great husband and I just feel like it's all right to have a good time. Speaker 1 (9:36) You Speaker 4 (9:36) know, people get so bogged down and music to me, too, is supposed to be an escape sometimes. Or you're supposed to feel emotion either way. You come to my shows and you feel all of them. You know what I mean? We go through a gamut. But this is just a different level of like. I don't know, you know, when Donna Summer comes on, you start moving like you just do. And so I wanted that moment. Speaker 3 (9:56) With the music that you grew up on. I mean, you grew up in Texas. There's a rich, almost like a country dance tradition in Texas. Like how much was that a factor in your musical upbringing? How much did you think of country as a place for physical expression and joy? Speaker 4 (10:15) was a line dance teacher. Oh, well, there Speaker 3 (10:17) you Speaker 4 (10:17) go. Speaker 3 (10:17) So, Speaker 1 (10:17) a Speaker 3 (10:17) lot. Speaker 2 (10:18) There you go. Okay, good. In addition to being a private investigator? Speaker 4 (10:21) She Speaker 1 (10:21) was a private Speaker 4 (10:21) investigator and she also taught line dancing on the side. And so, I grew up in honky-tonks line dancing like my whole life. So, it's just a part of it. Sure. You know? Yeah. Speaker 2 (10:29) It's Speaker 4 (10:29) part of the DNA for me. Speaker 2 (10:30) There's a track on this album called Cowgirl Curtsy. Speaker 1 (10:46) Yes. Speaker 2 (10:47) And the other thing you did with this album to go with the fun sound is you made little videos for every track. And there you are in a honky tonk, people line dancing behind you. Like, is there any part of you that's like, this is a concession to TikTok and country music's success in new mediums? The fact that we're now in this time when country music is streaming as much, if not more. Then pop and rap and all those other genres like you're now playing that game in a way that in the last ten years of your career you were pretty happy making your albums you have a huge fan base of your own but you weren't reaching out to a broader world. Oh, Speaker 4 (11:30) yeah, and I hope does I mean I'm if y'all are new here because of choosing Texas welcome and say well, right like I'm so happy about that, but I'm trying to like Not be a dinosaur about it and like go. Okay, I can I can lean in but do it my way so I don't feel like cheesy or uncomfortable or weird. Like, let's go to Texas and line dance. And if that's content, I can do that. You know what I mean? Speaker 3 (11:50) Why is it hard? Speaker 4 (11:51) It's just hard to like keep up. You know, everything changes constantly with content and what's working and what's not. And it's so fast and it's 20 seconds and 10 seconds. And, you know, I mean, I started in 2003, really. And I was stapling my. concert posters to phone poles outside dive bars, you know, so it's just a Completely different landscape and there's so much positive to it though the way that music Doesn't have to take two years to put out you know what I mean? Like it's out now like you write a song today and it's out tomorrow and Could be millions and millions of eyeballs, which is amazing So I'm trying to learn from also these youngins I'm trying to learn like how that works but make it work for me to where I still have like I am a really pretty introverted private person. I just have a public job. Speaker 1 (12:40) So Speaker 4 (12:40) trying to balance that, you know, you understand like, I just, you know, it's our joke within my management team, like my content, our role, that's what I say, but I understand the point of it and I appreciate the benefit of it. Speaker 2 (12:53) Did it take convincing? Did somebody have to sit you down? Speaker 4 (12:55) Every single Speaker 2 (12:55) day of my Speaker 4 (12:56) life. Ask my team. They're in there like, hello, Speaker 2 (13:00) God. They're in the green room right now being like, yes. Here, have another. Speaker 1 (13:02) Yes. Speaker 2 (13:03) But I also want to know a little bit more about the arm twisting, the sort of like, look, Miranda, you're a legend, but look at all the success Elle's having. Look at all the success that Casey's having. Like, don't you want a piece of it? Like, what works on you? Speaker 4 (13:18) It was my idea to do. So when we finished this record, I was like, let's go to Texas, my happy place, Fort Worth, and let's go to Billy Bob's and let's shoot the photos and little vignette videos for every single song. Speaker 4 (13:41) And that's where I grew up going and then singing and line dancing right under the saddle that we were like, you know, and I talked to my manager about it while we were in the studio. Like, I loved this record so much. I was like, I have an idea. OK, because I don't want to be caught off guard. And I do cherish my off time. I was like, let's just go hard. Let's go down there for two days and have two 12 hour days. It was on my birthday. Content for birthday. You mean you were Speaker 3 (14:05) giving yourself the gift of promotion for your birthday. Speaker 4 (14:09) I love how you said Speaker 1 (14:10) that. Speaker 3 (14:10) Isn't that Speaker 4 (14:11) something? Speaker 1 (14:11) My manager's going to love that. You've got to do something for Speaker 3 (14:13) yourself sometimes. Speaker 4 (14:13) Yes, but I was like, while I've got on the outfit, while the lighting's good, while I'm in mode, Speaker 1 (14:19) while Speaker 4 (14:19) I'm in a place that I love, let's get this because I want to have it because I know it's necessary. But like I said, it's like more of a, they're not going to call me on a Thursday when I'm like on the back of my horse, no makeup. Like we need. blah blah Speaker 1 (14:30) blah. Speaker 4 (14:31) When you're not in the zone. Speaker 1 (14:32) I'm not in mode. Speaker 4 (14:32) Yeah, right, right, Speaker 1 (14:33) right. Speaker 4 (14:33) Yeah, because I kind of feel like it's important to protect your private time and like your downtime. That's where you recharge. Yeah. I'm one of those people that recharges from like not peopling. Sure. And then I can go do a lot if I just have. That's the true Speaker 2 (14:47) introvert nature. Speaker 4 (14:48) Yeah, I can go do a lot if I just have a minute. So I'd rather like go hard, you know. Speaker 3 (14:53) Are there specific things that you learned watching how the Ella rollout, how. social media was so central to the success of that song well Speaker 4 (15:02) i'm learning a lot from like her and laney well just younger artists like i'm learning i i like i consider myself a mentor in a lot of ways but a lot of ways i sit back and watch and learn like what's working and how it's working and you know because that's their world like that's how they came up like there wasn't any other way and so i'm trying to stay like alert and understand it all That does not mean I'm ever going to love it, but I don't have to love it. I just have to do it. It's the truth. Speaker 2 (15:32) And the payoff is there, right? You can see the momentum, I'm sure. Speaker 4 (15:38) And I appreciate it. And I also love that fans have, I mean, my fans started with me when they were teenagers too, like you said earlier. I like that we have access to like so much more music so quickly. I love that part. Speaker 3 (15:50) Yeah, the frictionlessness of how music gets out to the world is so radically different. And I remember in the beginning of the streaming era, into the beginning of really the TikTok era, country always felt like a little bit behind. Yeah. Certainly behind hip hop, behind pop. It was still radio and Speaker 2 (16:05) CDs. Speaker 3 (16:06) Right. But then something happened. Speaker 4 (16:07) It still is. Speaker 3 (16:08) But there's still like something happened in like 2022, 2023, where all of a sudden. People start getting signed off of TikToks. Basically, you know, like Priscilla Block or somebody who has a great run on TikTok and then has a record deal three months later. Sort of like an unthinkable arc from 2005. Speaker 4 (16:28) That sounded like Mars in 2005. I'm like, where is that? Take me there. You Speaker 2 (16:34) had your own interesting pathway into the industry because I think something you were doing at the time felt... New like TikTok, like you came up through a reality competition show in part. Speaker 5 (16:45) Well, to vote for Miranda, then write down the number that is on your screen right now. And Speaker 2 (16:49) you had so much success so soon. You really saw, I think, the heights of what country music fame looked like in the aughts in the early to mid 2000s. What did you see about fame then? And you decided to take a different path. What did you see up close that sort of. scared you back into your personal privacy and taking one maybe half step out of the spotlight I Speaker 4 (17:17) think it um because yes I did I was on a tv show called Nashville Star I did not win which was a blessing looking back I did three years of honky tonks Speaker 1 (17:25) before that Speaker 4 (17:25) though so I Speaker 1 (17:26) like got my chops like super old school way or I like Speaker 4 (17:29) got some chops you know what I mean I'm still learning my chops but I mean I'm from Lindale Texas and I'd never flown on an airplane by myself at this time and I feel like I learned that the cameras and the lights and all that that is You have to make some choices around to like live a really good life and make sure that you stay rooted two things are Not everything is for everyone to have some of that's just for you and I think that's okay But I'm willing to give most of it in my songs. So if you need to know something goes into catalog it's in there You Speaker 1 (18:03) know Speaker 4 (18:04) what? I mean, it's honesty, but it's maybe not in an in-your-face kind of way And my other like tip or what I live by is like, don't surround yourself with yes people because that doesn't end well. Like you need to have truth tellers in your life, your family, your friends, your team, your management team, people, you know, working with you every day. I just feel like it's so important to have people tell you like those jeans look like shit on you, which is my mother. And my mother will say it all the time. Speaker 4 (18:34) Or like, Speaker 2 (18:35) that's not Speaker 4 (18:35) my favorite song. Or we don't think this is a good career move. Or, you know, my manager, Marianne, she has a tiny, tiny Porsche. And she would like take me in her car and park at the park and lock the doors. So we're this close. And she's very tall and German and like commanding. And be like, you're not being manageable. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm in trouble. But I love like I needed that. Speaker 2 (18:58) John's like. Someone's going to stick me in a Porsche. Yeah, no, I'm like