Jeff Probst Tells All About ‘Survivor’: ‘I Have Nothing to Hide’
Popcast
Jeff Probst discusses the profound evolution of 'Survivor' as he transitions from host to showrunner. He reflects on the implementation of t
Key takeaways
- Jeff Probst transitioned to showrunner in 2010 to ensure creative control over the 'Hero's Journey' narrative.
- The 'Open Era' of Survivor allows players to vote on or resurrect classic gameplay elements like fire making.
Main topics
- Evolution of Survivor
- Transition from Host to Showrunner
Notable quotes
I have nothing to hide. I've got no armor on in this interview.
Conclusion
A deep dive into the leadership and adaptation required to sustain a m
Transcript preview
Speaker 3 (0:00) I'm John Caramonica, a critic at The New Speaker 4 (0:02) York Times. And I'm Joe Cascarelli, a culture reporter at The Speaker 3 (0:04) Times. Together we host PopCast, a weekly pop culture chat show where we speak to the biggest musicians, actors, internet celebrities, and more. Speaker 4 (0:12) We've had Bad Bunny, Olivia Rodrigo, and Anne Hathaway. We've also hosted live performances with Speaker 3 (0:17) Andre 3000 and Erykah Badu. Plus we Speaker 4 (0:20) end every conversation with a snack. Catch new Speaker 3 (0:22) episodes of PopCast every week on YouTube. And Speaker 4 (0:25) anywhere you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (0:28) I have nothing to hide. I've got no armor on in this interview. I promise you. Speaker 3 (0:43) Welcome to the New York Times Popcast here. Guys on the couch of Weekly Culture Chat. I'm John Caramonica and I'm the critic. I'm Joe Cascarelli and I'm the reporter. Speaker 2 (0:52) I'm Jeff Probst and I'm on Popcast. Speaker 4 (0:56) Incredible. Speaker 2 (0:57) Survivors ready! Speaker 4 (0:59) Jeff Probst has been hosting Survivor for more than 25 years and 50 seasons. Yes, if you're ignorant, the show is still on and you should probably be watching it, in my personal opinion. And mine. As America's guidance counselor slash high school coach. Speaker 2 (1:16) Who also Speaker 4 (1:18) showruns and executive produces Survivor has been. in part responsible for ushering in a reality television era that we are all still living through. 50 million people watched the season one finale of Survivor in the year 2000. The winner of the first Survivor competition is... Speaker 1 (1:41) Rich. Speaker 4 (1:45) And many, many more have experienced the show in the years since. There was a renaissance, I would say, in the COVID era as the show came to streaming that has breathed new life into the property and added to the obsessive fan base that John and I are a part of, having seen, I believe, every episode. For sure. Between Speaker 3 (2:05) the two of us. I'm so happy. The Speaker 4 (2:06) 51st season of Survivor premiered last night. Speaker 2 (2:09) You are birthing a new game. The open era of Survivor. Speaker 4 (2:15) Coming after the all-star extravaganza of season 50, which brought back classic players from the entire show's run. So before we begin, Speaker 3 (2:24) like and subscribe, youtube.com slash popcast. Tap in. And Speaker 4 (2:29) if you've not yet subscribed to the New York Times, download the app. First month is free. No paywalls. Jeff, thank you so much for being here. Speaker 2 (2:37) I'm super excited. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Speaker 4 (2:39) I think Speaker 3 (2:39) that over the course of the 20 plus years, we've talked a lot about the reality TV era. And I think that you have established something of, dare I say, like a moral beachhead and say, there are lines that we will not cross. And those lines have maybe moved over the course of the 51 seasons now. But especially since 2010, when you took over as showrunner, you're setting where that line is. And I wonder if you could... maybe talk about how you think of the moral and ethical responsibilities of hosting a show like Survivor and maybe more presenting it to the world. And also, what does that mean for you individually? How do you draw a connection between your personal evolution and the evolution of what's been happening on the show and how you have made changes to it over the years? Speaker 2 (3:36) Yeah, I think it was... Good that I was on the show many years as the host before I became the showrunner because a I needed to learn how to produce but also in the early seasons of survivor The approach to casting and storytelling was different than the kind of storytelling we're doing now and part of that was because it was a new format and so You you would cast for type you wanted the archetypes and you wanted an array You wanted the mentor and you wanted to all this stuff him so we would look for that And friction was part of our, where we were at. We wanted friction in our storytelling, arguments and finger pointing and things like that. All of that is real and happened and that's part of the conflict that comes from that crisis. I always saw the game as a device. So when I was given the reins, the three things I really wanted to do was make it more cinematic. I wanted it to dive deep into Joseph Campbell. The Speaker 4 (4:29) Hero's Journey. Speaker 2 (4:29) The Hero's Journey. Which is essentially that you... take this adventure where you have all these obstacles you have to overcome. Movies are centered around it all the time. And I wanted it to be a family show. And I knew that would change who we put on the show and the types of stories that we told. And this is still evolving, but that's probably the biggest imprint I put on it is I wanted a show that you could watch with your family that would inspire kids to say, Dad, I Speaker 3 (4:55) think I could do that. What did that reflect about where you were in 2010? in your life? Speaker 2 (5:02) Well, I've always sort of been seeking that in my own life. What is my adventure? What is it that I want out of this? And so I think it was probably the responsibility of being given this show. Mark Burnett said, I went to CBS. They weren't really excited about you being the host and the showrunner. They thought it was too much power. And I told them I could, you could trust him with this power. Yeah. Were you overcoming something at that time? Well, I had a chip on my shoulder about what about being called a host and it and all my friends know this it's laughable now because I don't feel that way but The reason I got into hosting, the reason I'm in front of the camera is never about being a star or being on TV. It was about controlling the story. You wanted Speaker 4 (5:53) to produce live on screen. Speaker 2 (5:54) Yeah. And so if I turn it over to somebody else, now it's going to be your interpretation of what I'm thinking. And you're going to do it rather than I already know what I'm thinking. Yeah. And from the beginning, Mark was really cool from day one. He said, I trust you out there. There's nothing in your ear. There's no script. follow your instincts, and let's hope they take us somewhere good. So when I became showrunner, I wanted people desperately to know, you know, I'm not just the host. I could weave that into an interview seamlessly. Sure, sure. I'm embarrassed about it now, but that's where I was. I was on my hero's journey. And one of my obstacles I had to get past was that part of my ego. Speaker 4 (6:33) What were you like in 1999 when you're auditioning for Survivor? You'd done Rock and Roll Jeopardy. You're on Access Hollywood for a time. Yeah. By the way, bring back Rock and Roll Jeopardy. We'll have a conversation. Speaker 2 (6:44) Okay, yeah. You two should host it. Yeah, that's what Speaker 4 (6:46) I'm Speaker 2 (6:46) saying. Give us a call. We're open. What were you like? Where were you at in your life? I was, I had just moved to LA from New York where I was studying screenwriting and trying to make an indie movie, which I ended up getting greenlit. Yeah. literally the day we were shooting Survivor's marooning of season one. So I thought I was going to be making little movies. And that's how I was going to control the story. I was going to write them and also direct them. And then Survivor popped into my lap and, you know, I never really looked back. So I would say where I was was a young storyteller trying to find opportunities to tell stories any way I could. I had no idea Survivor would be... the engine that would drive that for nearly three decades. I Speaker 4 (7:33) want to talk about the sort of existential questions raised in last night's premiere of season 51. Coming off of 50, which was this big fan favorite, you know, nostalgia play, essentially. A big celebration, really. Yeah, Speaker 2 (7:51) a big Speaker 4 (7:51) celebration. Now you're nodding to a lot of people's old favorite parts of the show. while also trying to keep things fresh. You literally have someone in the first few minutes saying, is this classic Survivor? Because of the way you did the marooning and the fight for supplies. And then fast forward a little bit in the episode, there's a scene you're on the beach with everyone and you're essentially cataloging all the things that have happened on the show that people either love or complain about. Speaker 2 (8:19) Right now, fire making is in. But if all 20 of you agree you don't want it, then we'll get rid of it and you can do a straight vote. I Speaker 4 (8:28) feel like there's this push and pull between fan service and evolution. New fans versus old, progress versus nostalgia. How do you think about those things a quarter century Speaker 2 (8:40) in? It's a great question. The way I always think of Survivor is as a triangle. You're either the producer, you're the fan, or you're the player. But we need all three. That's how it works. And so when it comes to fans... You have to listen to what they say and try to get at the spirit of the note of what they're saying. It's not always literally what they're saying, but there's always something there. And I think sometimes fans get frustrated if they hear me say that, that it means we're not listening. We are listening. I heard I'm listening Speaker 4 (9:12) to everything. I see all of your comments. I hear all of your feedback. And correct me if I'm wrong, I sense a little frustration in you, which is saying... All of you Monday morning quarterbacks out there on your couch saying, get rid of this, get rid of that, try this. And then you essentially put it to the players and say, fine, you know, all that's on the table. You want to get rid of. Yeah. I am making my idols. Yeah, and when nobody raised their hand you're like well, what about all those bloggers? Yeah, Speaker 3 (9:41) sounded like right on Speaker 4 (9:42) the internet. Were you annoyed? Was that the impetus at all to say okay in the open era fine. It's all on the table You guys figure it out. Speaker 2 (9:48) No, I'm really I'm really not annoyed. I I find it fun and engaging and and I I've never doubted for a second that a player would want to play survivor without any twists or toys or idols or advantages ever. The game is no fun if there's nothing to play. It's a small subset of purists, and I think they just want to talk and have their voice heard, but they haven't really thought through it. There's no drama. It's not fun. When the purists say you should have nothing in the game, I don't really think much of it, but it was fun to say to a group of players, as you point out, right now we can pull idols out. Right now we can say no fire making. The reason firemaking's in is to give you some agency in your game. You do whatever you want. Can we Speaker 3 (10:35) talk a little bit about that meta-narrative that Joe's referring to, which is to say, there is, even if you disagree with the online discourse, even if you fundamentally think, ah, it's like 0.02%, but they're loud, but it's 0.02%, is there some inherent value in a meta-discourse about your show that's actually in opposition to your show? And I ask... actually in part about us, the more episodes we do, there's more meta discourse, and Joe is very much of the mindset that if you ain't got no haters, you ain't poppin'. So tell me about valuing Speaker 2 (11:10) that. A hundred percent. The reason we're still on is that passion from our fans. You messed up this season. That was bullshit what you did. I hated that twist. That person got voted out because of a dumb idea you had. That's what makes it. That's the grist. That's what we want. So yes, we listen to all of it. All I'm saying is, or reminding is, the player does their part. The fan does their part. The producers do their part. And our part is to look back and go, okay, there is a small subset that likes this. There's a larger piece that likes this. And in the open era, what if we were to say this season, we're listening to the purists, you know, whatever. It could be anything we want, but yes, I love it. I mean, nothing makes me happier than when I see somebody say, I discovered Survivor during COVID. I got some opinions. I'm like, oh, great. This Speaker 4 (12:00) is awesome. I have notes. Yes, I Speaker 2 (12:02) love that. Speaker 4 (12:03) Who can tell you no? You spoke about the consolidation of power that comes with being the host. the showrunner, the executive producer. It's your face. It's your vision. Who can call you up and say, Jeff, this isn't working? And you really take it to heart. Speaker 2 (12:19) Well, I mean, two answers. One, who can tell me no is George Cheeks, Amy Reisenbach, you know, the CEO, the presence of the company. Fortunately, we have an insane relationship. I mean, it's really kind of crazy how much trust they have. But if Amy called me and said, hey. So-and-so told me your idea, Mitch told me your idea. I'm not sure about it, I'm listening. But in terms of our internal team, the way ideas work is, yeah, I'm technically the showrunner. Really, we have some amazing heads of departments. We make the show. Speaker 4 (12:50) What Speaker 2 (12:51) I'm good at is exhausting to the point of frustration an idea, even if I'm certain it's not going to work. I will still go through that idea because one of two things might happen. in this exhaustive thing. Like I had an idea called Safe to Eight. Okay. And it was a fun name and it was going to be a catchy twist. And I worked on that for, I've worked on it for years. I've whiteboarded this idea and it always breaks, but I keep doing it because I'm looking for one of two things, either a sliver that could be something from Safe to Eight or the one sliver that's missing that makes Safe to Eight complete. Speaker 4 (13:29) So Speaker 2 (13:30) I'm known for that well saying, quit. Let's talk about safe to aid again. This is like an Speaker 4 (13:34) advantage? Yeah, like an advantage or Speaker 2 (13:36) whatever. Right. And even though we're all certain it might not work, we'll go through it. But the trust is if all the producers said, I think what that's going to do to reality is this, or I think what's going to happen at Tribal is that, it's gone. I mean, we have a great system and we have this. Can I tell you one very short story? Yeah, please. Okay. We have a phrase called speaker in the trees. So we were doing this season called Ghost Island. Speaker 1 (14:06) And Speaker 2 (14:07) the theme of it was every bad decision that's ever happened on Survivor is on this one island. So I grab everybody together and say, let's write down every convention of a horror movie and a scary movie. And one of our guys, John Kerhoffer, day one employee, runs our challenge team. He says, what about we put some speakers in the trees? and we have like scary music playing and we have fog machine and all this stuff well it's a terrible idea you first of all you can't have music playing while you're shooting a scene you can't cut it and you couldn't hear people and a fog machine is loud but one of our our art designers at the time i think it was dac said you know what i could do i could burn coconut husk all day at Ghost Island and it will waft through the light and give us this dappled, you know, little Speaker 3 (14:57) eerie. It came Speaker 2 (14:59) from an idea that wasn't going to work. It led to a great tiny sliver of an idea. So we all now are shorthand for, this is probably a terrible idea, is we go speaker in the trees. What if? So that's how we look at it is we don't. We really don't criticize bad ideas. We use them as a somewhere to get to something. What's the spirit of what he's going for? Speaker 3 (15:21) And Speaker 2 (15:22) I think it's a secret weapon. The ego is gone. Nobody cares who has the idea. Speaker 3 (15:26) I was going to ask how you are as a manager. What is Jeff Probst like not on camera, but in those rooms? How do you get the show that you need from the people that you have? Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:38) I mean, obviously I'm giving my bias point of view, but what we do is I... lead the way I want to be led, which is with a lot of autonomy. Mark never breathed down my back. He never second guessed me, even though I'm sure he was second guessing me internally. He let my confidence grow. So we promote from within almost exclusively. It's very tough to get a job on Survivor unless you come in at the bottom. Because the reward is if you come in at the bottom, not only do you learn our system, but we're invested in you and we will rise you with us. We have so many people that started as dream teamers, which is the equivalent for survivor of the PA that are heads of departments running things. I don't tell anyone who to hire, how to run your department. My job is big picture, where are we going next, you know, and things like that. But I think that's what we do well is. We really do get along. And I think we get along because everybody's loving what they do. Speaker 3 (16:37) And no, it's crucial. I do wonder, when I look back at the earliest seasons of Survivor, the Jeff Probst on camera is what I would describe as a more frictive Jeff Probst. There's more pushback against whether it's individuals on the show or things that happen. And you've said in other interviews... Mark Burnett wanted a show that had more conflict. Recasting for conflict. Was that reflective of who and how you were as an individual and as part of your hero's journey that was behind the scenes as you sort of moved into management, unlearning some of that in yourself? Speaker 2 (17:13) That's a good question. I've never thought of it that way. Maybe. It might have been... It could have been related to the chip on my shoulder or me trying to prove myself. The one thing that did come to me was, ultimately, especially those first many, many seasons, I'm in service of the show, and the show is run by Mark Burnett, who gave me the greatest break of my life. If he wants me to push back a little more, that's my job. It's not really my nature. It really isn't. I don't love conflict, but I'm... I'm good enough in the moment to find moments of conflict if you told me, try to get a fight going or an argument. I don't love that. But what I do remember, there was such an idea of protecting the player experience at all costs that there were times where I know I behaved as though I wasn't a part of our crew. Why the fuck did somebody make a noise during tribal council kind of an attitude? Yeah, sure. To make sure the player knew. I'm with you. I'm on your side. That was part of Mark's design. This is a weird mental trip. Speaker 3 (18:20) Jeff Speaker 2 (18:20) is not with production. He's Speaker 3 (18:22) one of y'all. Speaker 2 (18:23) He's one of you all. He's in the middle. I'm with you all. I don't know why the fuck they're... Dude, Speaker 3 (18:27) I don't know, man. So in essence, that frictiveness actually went both directions. It wasn't simply contestant-facing. It was also sometimes crew-facing. And Speaker 2 (18:37) I think today, I feel pretty confident about this, that nobody on our crew would say that today. I think I am seen as jovial, likable. And COVID was a very big turning point as well because there was so much negativity in the world. Yeah, Speaker 3 (18:51) of course. Between Speaker 2 (18:51) everything that was going on, not just COVID. And I definitely made a conscious decision, Survivor's going to become fun. Really fun. Speaker 3 (18:59) It was also, you know, the earliest era of Survivor. It was a much friskier era in American culture. It was a much looser era in American culture. The politics of television, particularly early reality television, were not always as evolved as perhaps they became. It was a bit lawless. Yeah. And lawless on screen. And I wonder if you think also I'm watching television and they're doing this in 10 other places too. This is the Speaker 2 (19:24) dominant mode right now? I don't think so. I've never watched other shows for influence on Survivor. I don't watch hardly any unscripted shows because I don't want to be influenced by them. Speaker 3 (19:35) But Speaker 2 (19:36) you're bringing up, just in general, a part of my history on the show that I had to reconcile and come to terms with, which is I'm not always proud of the decisions I've made, Speaker 1 (19:45) not Speaker 2 (19:46) always proud of the things I've said on the show. There were things I said 20 years ago I would never say today. So I've had to... find grace for myself because the good and the bad of being on camera on a show like Survivor for 25 years is you see a lot of yourself. You've done some of that work on the show itself Speaker 4 (20:07) in trying to adjust and speaking to the contestants and to the viewer about getting with the times. For instance, come on in, guys. This was your catchphrase. Welcoming people to a challenge. after Me Too and various conversations around gender and feminism, et cetera, you put it to the contestants. You said, does anyone feel uncomfortable with the way I phrased this? And no one spoke up, and then someone spoke up. I Speaker 1 (20:35) don't agree that we should use the word guys. I fully agree that we should change it, whether it just be dropping the guys, changing it to something else. Speaker 4 (20:42) You don't say come on in guys anymore. Now, times have changed. The pendulum swings. Speaker 4 (20:49) Those conversations are not so much at the cultural forefront about inclusive language. Speaker 2 (20:54) Do Speaker 4 (20:55) you regret changing Come On In, guys? Not