PCP Collabs: Understanding Boys with The Man Cave Ep. 1
Pop Culture Parenting
This episode features a collaborative discussion between Pop Culture Parenting and The Man Cave to explore the emotional inner worlds of tee
Key takeaways
- The Man Cave utilizes a 'facilitators go/model first' methodology to demonstrate vulnerability to teenage boys.
- Al Green discusses how limiting emotional expression in youth is like providing only a few colors in a pencil set, preventing a full life experience.
Main topics
- Teenage boy mental health
- Masculinity and vulnerability
Notable quotes
Boys can't be what they can't see.
Conclusion
The episode serves as a powerful call to action for adults to foster h
Transcript preview
Speaker 6 (0:00) Hi, this is something different where the beautiful Nick is not with us sadly, but two other beautiful men are. I'm very lucky to be joined by the amazing Al and Kel from the Man Cave where we go deeply, quite emotionally and practically into how we understand the inner workings and world of the boys that we care about in our lives. We hope it helps you understand them, connect with them and support them. Speaker 5 (0:24) Hi, I'm Billy, a developmental paediatrician. I'm Al. And I'm Cal from the Man Cave, Speaker 3 (0:30) Australia's leading preventative mental health organisation working with teenage boys and young men. This is Pop Culture Parenting with Speaker 5 (0:38) friends. Speaker 1 (0:41) Hey, don't let your mother smell that beer on your breath. She'll take it out on me. Who Speaker 4 (0:53) is your daddy and what does he do? Speaker 2 (0:58) Just use your best judgement. Speaker 6 (1:06) Well, this is something very special for me personally, for Pop Culture Parenting and Guiding Growing Minds, and hopefully for the public. Something really beautiful, something new that we're testing, and what a group and two individuals to test it with. We're going to probably talk about safety and relationships, but we are delighted to be speaking today with two of my favourite men about... boys and men from the man cave cal and al it's lovely to have you here And maybe for a bit of context, we could tell like an origin story about what's happened because people might have heard that listen to pop culture parenting about the man cave. And if you don't know about the man cave, you need to know about the man cave. If you have boys in your life as a parent, caregiver, professional, especially educators, you guys are the leading preventative mental health service. support and journey with and understand and listen to thousands of boys every week in all the transformative programs that you deliver which I'm very excited about and it gives me hope about the world that my son and all the boys that I see in clinic are coming into but I wonder if we could start with a little bit of an intro and I suspect maybe Al you will feel the most comfortable going first sure about yeah just what what you do I guess and then we're Speaker 3 (2:34) going Speaker 6 (2:34) to talk more about who you are and then yeah, what obviously the Man Cave does, but also just some practical stuff that we can do to better Speaker 3 (2:42) connect with and understand our boys. Thanks. Yeah, we're so stoked to be here. This has been lots of conversations in the making to get to this point. And we're just so stoked to be partnering with Pop Culture Parenting. I think this is a really beautiful coming together of worlds and two sides of different parts of the story that can actually be one story. So my name's Al. one of the co-founders of the Man Cave and my role as Chief Experience Officer, which interesting title, but really what it encapsulates is my role in the organisation over the years has been developing our facilitation methodology and how we train our facilitators, how do we actually role model what we talk about with teenage boys, what does it actually practically look like in the space having conversations with teenage boys. been a part of the some of the program design and i also look after the culture of the organization so experience is the catch-all of all of those things but really i'm spent the last 16 17 years at the man cave but in organizations prior to that working with working with young people yeah Speaker 6 (3:50) it's amazing ellen i think that we're going to talk about like That practical part of it we'll definitely get into, like how do we actually connect with and understand and support and lift up our boys. But there's also this idea that I know both of you will agree with of like we bring ourselves to the spaces we work in and exist in. And one thing that clinicians I think often make the mistake of is, no, I need to be this professional that exists in these spaces. And we really miss out on an opportunity, especially the boys we meet, to connect with them because we're not being our true selves. And I just know... That's something that both of you bring to your work as well in Speaker 5 (4:26) your Speaker 6 (4:27) relationships and how you connect with obviously all the adults you get to work with as well. So it'd be really cool to explore that. And speaking of connecting, one of the things that we often joke about, and it's really genuine, is just how fond I am of you, Kel. Like one of the amazing things about the story of The Man Cave is that people who listen to pop culture parenting might know that... I moved and we used to, Nick and I, the beautiful Nick, who's hopefully not left too big a hole that I can't fill where he's missing. I moved and we used to record it out the back of my house and we were looking for a studio. You know, we are financially a bit fragile, so we were trying to figure it out. And the Man Cave were the group that came to our rescue. And now one of the highlights of my fortnight, if I'm being honest, is like... my opportunity to connect with you when I get to see you at the start of it. I'm always like in chaos running from a plane in an Uber to like, you know, I've tried to fit too much into a day and it's this really beautiful experience for me because I get to see you and I get to be in a space with you and connect with you. And I think the interesting thing about you and I, Cal, is that we're both very open with who we are and one of the things we might talk about is the thing that lacks in like boys and... men's friendships is any depth things like self-disclosure real compassionate caring vulnerability and all those things it's often this superficial thing of like what footy team do you go for how good weather on the weekend or how bad is that but being you know feeling safe enough to kind of share vulnerabilities fear anxiety you know and I've done that with you and felt really safe in it so it's been one of the best things that's come out of the man cave and pop culture parenting and guiding growing minds doing things together has honestly been my connection to you. So with that huge intro, would you mind just saying what you do? Speaker 5 (6:29) Yeah, I mean, I just want to speak a little bit to what you just said. Thank you, Billy. It's also a highlight of mine when you come in. You're one of those rare people that come into my life, that instant connection, and I felt incredibly safe by you. I feel incredibly safe with you and also very seen by you. The fact that I'm even here speaking to this microphone, I'm like, I'm going to be honest with you, my heart is racing. My hands are sweating. But you really see me and you see that I have something to offer and I'm sitting here because of you and I'm stepping into the edge. I'm like freaking out a little bit but I'm like here because I know you see something in me that often that I don't recognise within myself. Can I just, Speaker 6 (7:12) yeah, I see so much in you, Cal. And I hope, you know, we want to talk to your friendship with Al and I'm sure both of us have you and hold the space with you, hold you through it. But I see so much in you. I see like selfishly so much in you for me personally, but I see so much for the world in you. And I really like you're one of the people that gives me hope that our boys will be okay because they're spending time with you. And what I want to do. particularly with this conversation, is amplify you. I want people to connect with you. I want the listener to understand you and also all the work you and Al do in the community. But it goes back to what I was saying before. There's this personal element of you that I think is why your work is so valuable and some of the most valuable work that I know of that's happening in the community. So it's really amazing. But maybe you want to share a little bit. We'll go deeper into our stories, but a little bit of what you do for the Man Cave. Speaker 5 (8:09) Yeah. So my role is Director of Content and Digital Engagement. So I'm responsible for all things marketing, comms, content. I get the really incredible privilege of speaking to teenage boys about their experience. So talking all things, you know, manosphere, talking about peptides, sextortion. Like there's not many things I'm not talking about with teenage boys and I absolutely love it. So, you know, obviously from the brand perspective, get to create all the content for the cave, but then also create healthier content online for teenage boys as well. Speaker 6 (8:41) Yeah, which we'll get to because there's some amazing stuff that the Man Cave has created, like the soundscape and things like that, which I think is about really helping us connect with and understand the experience of boys in today's world. You also, on a lighter note, have the exceptional ability to make Nick and I look good because you capture our video content for Pop Culture Parenting. And we very quickly got feedback saying this, yeah, you guys look so much better than you have for the last four and a half years. That's surely a career achievement to make us look polished. Speaker 5 (9:10) Well, I do miss the original background though. I quite liked your wallpaper. My own advice. Grand Theft Auto. Which we tried to replicate for here, for you today. Some palms and... Speaker 6 (9:20) Well, it's funny, isn't it? Because one of the things, like one of my favourite colours is hot pink. It doesn't go great with like a pale red-headed complexion. You know, and it's funny. As I've gotten older and more secure in who I am, I've been able to connect with those parts that maybe don't align with a traditional view of masculinity. And raising a boy, it's really interesting to think about how do I create a world where he's safe to be who he wants to be and connect with and like the things he wants to like. And that's, you know, a thing that's kind of really missing in the world from our childhood, but I think it's still prevalent. It's such a narrow opportunity for boys to... express themselves be who they are to connect with others and things like that um also on the connection piece i wonder if you'd feel comfortable you guys have a really rich beautiful long-term friendship that'd be cool just to hear a little bit about and for the listeners to hear about too before we get into the meaty what do we do and how do we help boys Speaker 3 (10:21) Yeah, I mean, you're actually one of my oldest friends. I mean, we met just out of high school. We actually met when we were teenagers. I think we were both 19. I was 18. You were 18. I Speaker 5 (10:31) was still Speaker 3 (10:31) in year 12. I was your elder. Yeah, you were my elder. It Speaker 5 (10:34) felt like that though. We Speaker 3 (10:37) were working for a charity organisation at the time and just met and we kind of didn't see each other for nearly 10 years. And then Cal, you applied for the role at... the cave as we were opening the digital arm and six Speaker 5 (10:51) years ago, six Speaker 3 (10:52) years ago. And it was like, are you Cal Al? Like, is that we've become reconnected again. And the last six years, man, barely talking about that range of like, what do we allow into our relationships? And for boys feels like it gets so limited. It's like a colored pencil set that. just different colors over life is just like that part of the emotional range isn't welcome. That part's not welcome. That part's not welcome. Don't talk about this. Don't talk about this. You know, it's a point where like boys end up in high school and they've got like four gray pencils, you know, and we wonder why they're not creating colorful pictures. You give me more pencils. Speaker 6 (11:34) Beautiful. Speaker 3 (11:34) And yeah, just getting to the range that gets welcomed into our relationship. It's like there's just there's nothing off limits. And we've worked really hard at broadening that range to make it be able to hold more. And so I just feel like there's no parts of me that I feel like I can't share with you or have space as like gritty or hard or dense as they might be. But it also means that the joy that we get to experience together is like amplified tenfold. It's just one of my favorite relationships in my life. Speaker 6 (12:07) Yeah, I don't know about both of you, it's just so powerful to hear two men talking like that and like a little bit healing for me to be honest. I don't know if I have enough relationships that I need like that. Elle, I wonder like obviously the journey in your mind of the man cave is longer than six years but I wonder if in the setting of like your relationship with Kel and maybe your own story of growing up as a boy like... where the origins of the man cave came from for you personally? Speaker 3 (12:38) I think about my time in high school and there were so many conversations that I wanted to be having or I was curious about or experiences. Speaker 3 (12:54) that never had a container for them. And a lot of the time it was just a lack of awareness of the people around me to just ask the question or to provide the space because I didn't know how to generate it for myself because I hadn't seen it. I hadn't seen boys, men, open spaces to bring these conversations forward. And that was... ended up being kind of like, okay, well, these things aren't okay. Don't talk about these things. Don't talk about the fact that I'm terrified of judgment and I don't know if anyone else experiences that. There's no container where I have bad skin in high school. Does anyone, A, do people think that I'm ugly? Are people silently judging me on this? Are they looking at my face? I'm distracted. I'm living in a different world. And because there were no spaces, I mean, I know now because of all the spaces I've been in, hearing boys talk about these kinds of things. But I was like, okay, well, this is a, is this, I don't realize that other people are experiencing the exact same set of emotions as me, but we're all just suppressing it. But on the surface, I feel like everyone's got. it together in a whole range of different ways and i there's something wrong with me and so i hide this thing I hide my vulnerability because I'm not in spaces where it gets brought out and not only brought out but celebrated, psychologically safe enough. And so being in spaces in school where it was like, oh, I have anxiety, I'm experiencing anxiety and I'm spending all of my energy trying to protect that anxiety from being shown to other people. what if there were spaces where that could be said and known and then the relationships, the energetic frequency between me and my mates, this is part of it. This is something I'm experiencing and you're my friend. I want you to know this about me. But if there's no space in which I can bring it forward, how does it end up there? And so a lot of the early stages of the man cave was about how do we get into... spaces where we can and create spaces as facilitators where we can role model these things and our facilitators always go first that's that's part of our methodology our facilitators always go first and so standing up there and being able to say some of these things i was like i the number of times i've got to stand in front of teenage boys and and provide them the space or the conversation starters that i just desperately wanted as a teenager to be able to whether i actually spoke in a man cave session if I was a teenage boy or not the fact of just hearing someone say these are things that people experience and it's likely from a statistical perspective there are people in the room that are then I go oh okay I'm not crazy it's okay I think there's so many young people especially so many young people in general but we're talking about teenage boys that walk around thinking that it's only them that are experiencing this thing Speaker 6 (16:01) Yeah, it's really powerful and I guess like I meet a lot of kids in clinic that have these like really unhealthy ways that they manage that anxiety. Like aggression is one of them, substance use, risk-taking, emotional suppression and yeah, I wonder how that manifested for you as a teenager because for me in really unhealthy ways, you know, like it culminated in me getting kicked out of high school but there were years. of really unhealthy coping mechanisms for exactly the same reason that you talk about. I was insecure. It was only me that was worried about that. I felt inferior to all the masculine men and boys that were around me and it was a deeply flawed part of me that wasn't something I could work on. You know, I had to hide it, pretend. There was no understanding that everyone else was feeling it as you are and it like... yeah, it led to some things that could have I could have had really bad outcomes that would have you know changed my life for the worse forever if There wasn't luck on my side, you know, and I think Yeah without getting too deep into it now. That's what's happening to so many of the boys and like it's So I wonder yeah and Cal I know a little bit of your story is like that as well like as a teenage boy and like You know, this is the hard thing when we know that 72 % of us have experienced childhood adversity and 20 % of us have experienced three or more forms of it. You know, this is a common story. And for our boys, there just aren't the relationships or safety around... feeling that in a way that someone else can catch it and support us through it um so yeah i wonder if you connected that kettle like your story personally growing up and some of the stuff you went through Speaker 5 (17:51) absolutely i had a lot of anger inside me when i was probably the earliest i remember being really angry was probably from like year four all the way up until you know 15 years old I went to see a psychologist in year four because my parents didn't know what to do. And I was taught how to... I think they used the traffic light method of just like, hey, you're an angry kid, use this thing to stop your anger. Speaker 6 (18:21) And Speaker 5 (18:21) I had no one show me like how to actually express my emotions or find the language to speak to how I'm actually feeling. And I actually brought this. This is an assignment we got given at the start of year seven, so before entering year seven. And I think it perfectly encapsulates how I felt and also how. I sometimes feel now. And the subtext was inner feelings. So what were our inner feelings? Pretty profound, I think, question for a year seven child. But that was the question. It says, I mostly feel happy, but sometimes I feel sad. And sometimes it feels like no one understands me. Speaker 5 (19:05) And I have this core memory of when I was 11, screaming and shouting in the bathroom and saying, I don't want to live anymore because the feeling was so real and I didn't know what to do with it. That's how I felt. Like, I don't want this to exist anymore. No one understands me. And it could have been over some trivial thing. Very likely it was over some trivial thing like me getting in trouble instead of my brothers getting in trouble. It was actually their fault, not mine. But the pain, I remember the feeling. of just like this uncontrollable feeling of just like no one getting me. Yeah. And that, you know, 11-year-old boy not wanting to be alive anymore because it was too much. Speaker 6 (19:46) Why is it trivial, Cal? Speaker 5 (19:49) Well, not trivial in the feeling, but trivial in the maybe what I was reacting to. I think the things that I was, that's a good question actually, because I have often told myself that the thing that I was reacting to was trivial. Speaker 6 (20:04) Yeah, it was just interesting because you're like, it's funny you speak about anger. You're someone that I have so much specific admiration for about. how emotionally expressive you are, but also I deeply feel a sense of calm within you. And obviously you've done so much work and you do some amazing stuff, which I hope we get to talk about as an adult man that explores your feelings and your connection to self and like some really cool stuff that I want to do with you like that. But it's funny, isn't it? I think a lot of the time we have