Jessica Tarlov on Winning Arguments and Elections

On with Kara Swisher

Jessica Tarlov discusses her unique role as a liberal co-host on Fox News' The Five, her book 'I Disagree: Winning Arguments Without Losing

Key takeaways

• Effective argumentation requires empathy and understanding, not just winning debates.

Main topics

• Political polarization and common ground
• Media consumption habits of undecided voters

Notable quotes

"You don't have to go into uncomfortable spaces, but if you don't, you're going to lose."

Conclusion

Tarlov advocates for pragmatic, research-backed dialogue across politi

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) Is Scott behaving? Do you need any help? No, I don't. Your vibe is very different than our vibe. Speaker 7 (0:05) Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I mean, Speaker 6 (0:06) you've been together so long. I'm new. New and sparkly some days, but sometimes just not his Kara. He Speaker 7 (0:12) hates it. He hates the idea that Speaker 6 (0:14) he has to keep coming back Speaker 7 (0:15) to Speaker 6 (0:15) me. No. Oh, Speaker 7 (0:17) he does. It's okay. I don't care. I'm very flex. I'm very bendy. Speaker 6 (0:19) Yeah, that's what I think of when I think of you. So flexible, that Kara Swisher. Speaker 7 (0:23) Bendy is different than flexible. Speaker 7 (0:36) Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. Jessica Tarlow says that she has, quote, the coolest job in media for a liberal. This may come as a surprise to a lot of people, including myself. As the lone liberal co-host of The Five on Fox News, she gets interrupted. a lot. Nevertheless, she's outspoken and self-assured, presenting arguments based on research and data, and she often wins the arguments on that show, despite being a four-to-one competition. That makes sense once you find out she has a PhD in political science from the London School of Economics. When she's not working at Fox, Jessica also hosts the podcast Raging Moderates from the Vox Media Podcast Network with my pivot co-host, Scott Galloway. Now she's got a new book coming out called I Disappear. agree, winning arguments without losing friends. In it, she talks about her surprising career path and shares strategies for finding common ground with others during a time of intense polarization. She also offers research-backed insights on elections and political strategy based on her years as a political strategist and pollster. I have wanted to talk to Jess for a long time. I wrote her when she was in arguments with, I think, Jesse Waters, I'm sure, and said, I don't know how you do this and have gotten to know her better over the years. I've wanted to have Jess on for a long time. Fox News has not allowed her to come on my podcasts and different things like that. I don't know why that is, but I'm thrilled to have her here now. I think she's a really smart person in a very difficult situation over there at Fox, and she manages to articulate and win people over. And I find that really interesting, although I don't know how she does it. I would be perplexed every single day. rage, really. I would be raging. And so I really admire it. And I want to hear from her about what she thinks about. She's not a moderate voice exactly, although she is on that show, Raging Moderates, but more of someone who is trying to be more commonsensical. And I think it's important we talk about that. Our expert question today comes from Anthony Scaramucci, founder of Skybridge Capital, who in 2017, of course, famously spent 10 days as White House communications director. So stick around. Speaker 7 (2:55) Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at odoo.com slash Cara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Cara. Speaker 4 (3:38) This week on Why Are You Like This, I am talking with the one, the only Colin Kaepernick. Colin joins me for a fantastic conversation marking the 10-year anniversary of his protest. We dive deep into his football career, his decision to protest, the work he's been doing with Know Your Rights Camp, and his new memoir. Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Speaker 1 (4:04) Hey, everybody. Cassidy Hubberth here. This week on And Mom, we spoke with Grammy Award winning musician Corinne Bailey Ray about taking her kids on tour, becoming a widow at 29, and how she felt about having a home birth. Check out the latest episode of And Mom wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 7 (4:27) Jessica, thank you for coming on on. Thank you for having me. Finally, I get to talk to you. What is the problem? Why don't they let you talk to me? Kara, we talk all the time. I know we do. I know. You're on Scott's podcast. We'll get to that. York podcast with Scott, really. And then you're on Fox, but they never let me at Jessica. She's written this wonderful book. And we're Speaker 6 (4:48) going Speaker 7 (4:48) to talk about getting along, which I Speaker 6 (4:49) have questions about. I know. Questions and skepticism, I'm sure. Skepticism, yes, exactly. And so, actually, let me start off with that. Why this take? Well, the take is just directly correlated to my experience. And I feel like... having the perch that I do, that I can offer some insight into a world that most people are just studying from the outside. And when I decided to call it I Disagree with the subtitle Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends, I knew that there would be pushback, especially from the left. Well, what if I want to lose friends? What if these people are not deserving of my friendship? What if I feel healthier without them? And the book is not about forcing anyone into something that they feel uncomfortable doing, but is a direct reaction to the amount of outreach that I got from people across the political spectrum who said, I don't know how you do it. And that's people who love Jesse Speaker 7 (5:47) Waters and Greg Gutfeld, where they just say, how do you put up with this shit? Well, Speaker 6 (5:52) how do you put up with this shit? But also, I would like to be able to put up with a little bit more shit in Speaker 7 (5:57) my Speaker 6 (5:57) life, too. Speaker 7 (5:58) Because you're giving it right. I see. Well, that. Speaker 6 (6:01) I wanted it to be a survival guide if you choose to have these contentious conversations, because I think that there's obviously a lot of social science to it, you know, how we hear and process information that we disagree with. But in light of the 2024 election, I think it's pretty clear to all of us that if you don't go into uncomfortable spaces, you're going to lose. Speaker 7 (6:22) Right, right. Politically, at least. Speaker 6 (6:24) Yeah. Well. That's what I care about most. I care about my friendships and my relationships, but I see myself as an advocate and someone that wants to win elections because I think outcomes are better when Democrats are in office for the economy, for health care, for all the stuff that really matters to people. Speaker 7 (6:43) So you've said that your job on The Five isn't necessarily to change minds, rather to open minds, and that a lot of the legacy media still don't understand the conservative ecosystem. Speaker 7 (6:53) Talk about what you think people are missing and how it's important to understand that ecosystem and view it with an open mind. There's still this idea Speaker 6 (7:03) floating around about legitimacy or legitimizing. And, you know, where do you choose to go? Platforming. Like, I'm not going on Hasan Piker's stream because I don't want to, you know, well, I guess he is the one with the platform, but you know what I mean. And I just think that that's a load of shit at this point. Like the world goes on without you. And it doesn't mean that you have to have these conversations. You know, I don't want to go on and have a chat with Nick Fuentes or Tucker Carlson. I don't begrudge anyone who is going to do that and stand their ground and actually push and try to get under the hood of what those ideas are. But the 2024 election, you know, in every single autopsy that we saw, one of the main findings was that there were all of these. persuadable voters, a lot of them very casual, that were consuming media in a totally different way than we thought, that they weren't part of this MAGA drumbeat where they were listening to Charlie Kirk and Benny Johnson all day, that they were going to places that are more culture-driven, even a flagrant podcast. I was at a conference talking about this issue, and the group, the Democratic representatives were saying that they're just desperate to get on culture podcasts. They don't actually want to go on anywhere that has to do with politics anymore. And that those podcasters, smartly so, like Speed, for instance, don't want them on there because you don't want to complicate that space for people who are actually coming to enjoy them. So I fundamentally feel like the way that we've been looking at the ecosystem is wrong. And this idea of who the gatekeepers are or that you are a gatekeeper as to what gets to infiltrate people's minds or have a real effect on their lives just doesn't exist anymore. And we're playing by a new set of jungle rules, frankly, not even to mention what's going to happen with AI's impact on these elections. You know, it's starting, obviously. So that's kind of how I see the landscape. Speaker 7 (9:10) So the debates on the fight do get heated, and really it's all directed at you, and your co-hosts really like to interrupt you. Let's listen to a clip from April. You're discussing accusations of fraud against the civil rights group Southern Poverty Law Center with Greg Guckfeld and guest host Lisa Kennedy Montgomery. The DOJ has since indicted a former SPLC official. Let's listen. I Speaker 6 (9:31) don't see how we get from we flipped people within these organizations and paid them. for it to white supremacy is made up and that it's a complete fallacy. And it's not just the Biden administration that said it was the greatest threat. It was in the Trump administration, too. Chris Wray said this. That's BS. Speaker 8 (9:51) Don't play that with Speaker 6 (9:52) us. It's literally a quote. Speaker 5 (9:53) So listen, no one believed it. They only said they Speaker 6 (9:57) want to. OK, no one believed it. You're right. No one believed it. But it's just what the guy said under oath in testimony. This is a. procedure that law enforcement does on every level where they flip people within organizations. They're not law enforcement. They're Speaker 7 (10:12) not law Speaker 6 (10:12) enforcement. No, but they take information and they feed it. He said it. They feed it back to local and including the FBI. And we know that the FBI does this. They work with informants all the time for drug trafficking. So that's the problem. Yes, that is the problem. In fact, that is that is one of the tools that the mainstream Speaker 4 (10:27) left media is trying to use to defend Southern Poverty Law Center, saying that, well, they Speaker 7 (10:32) were doing what the FBI does. So talk about this encounter. It was incredibly frustrating. And someone did it the other day where they just said a falsehood and then just said, look it up, Google it. And it was wrong. So talk about your strategy, because these are techniques that people use. You're wrong. And then don't back it up or look it up or here's the real fact when it's not the real fact. So talk a little bit about your strategy. Speaker 6 (11:00) My strategy is to have a very serious game plan when I come in and nothing will get in the way of getting through it. And I have over the years figured out different kind of rhetorical devices, including saying, oh, no, no, no, you're right. There's no evidence of this, which does indicate to the viewer that obviously that isn't how I feel and that maybe if they are so inclined, you could go take a look. at what we're talking about. And this gets to the opening minds versus changing them. Because if you plant some seed of doubt in there that what they're hearing over and over again, because it is the reinforcement of it, might be wrong, then perhaps at some point they'll check it out or it will run counter to their own experience, which is how you can do it about things like goods and services, healthcare, things like that. With the SPLC, obviously, they're not going to run into them in their real life. But you just have to really believe in the things that you're saying and be backed up by data. And then, although I bemoan the impact of our algorithms on a lot of our lives, it does help in these instances where a clip of Me saying this, for instance, which was totally true, and the FBI has worked with the SPLC for a very long time. And I'm not here to justify everything that the SPLC does. I'm sure that there's some stuff that I wouldn't be thrilled about. Like, I don't love the idea of paying KKK members, but I understand if they are back-channeling information that that can be helpful. But the internet then does their thing, and the clip... lives on in a different way, not only feeding people who vote like you and me, but also popping up in a middle-of-the-road person's timeline. Speaker 7 (12:59) Right, right. So the technique there for I just agree is put doubt in people's mind about what's being said, essentially. Speaker 6 (13:07) Sowing a bit of doubt, but then also making sure that what you're saying is very... data-based and not feelings-based. So at the end of each chapter, that's why I created those tips boxes, because I really wanted people to be able to walk away with tangible takeaways and say, oh, I could do that. And for this, for instance, one of them is to think in averages and not anecdotes. Speaker 7 (13:32) So you're trying to insert, like... facts into the situation, and even if they're arguing back at you. Now, tense moments like this tend to go viral as clips, of course, and this is what people do. And they're often reposted as incendiary titles, like Greg Gutfeld erupts, or Greg Gutfeld shuts down Jessica Tarlow. And you make a distinction about, and I'm going to quote you, how most partisans consume you in clips and those who watch the full show. What's the difference? Why does it matter? And how does that repackaging of clips or social media play into... I guess, Fox's broader strategy. And how do you then counter that with the kind of tips you're giving in your book? Speaker 6 (14:11) Well, if you are purely going on clips and the media that feasts off of those clips, like either the pro-democracy media and the Midas touches of the world or the right does the same thing, you would think that Greg Godfell and I utterly despise each other and cannot be in the same room. That it's like you walk in one minute before the show and sprint out the other side. If you watch the whole show, you see in the back half that there are a lot of segments that are focused on more light things, you know, talking about culture or, you know, dating culture, robot dogs, whatever it is. And actually, those are. The highest rated. So our last segment of the show, which is called One More Thing, where we can share something personal or we do a lot of stuff revolving around pets because everyone loves pets. People love that the most because that's where most of the personality comes through. And I think that that's important, not because everybody has to be best friends, but because. Speaker 6 (15:20) It is possible to have functioning relationships with people with whom you vehemently disagree with and find a way to a place where you are not going absolutely insane. And I'm very clear in the book and certainly, you know, anyone who talks to me about this that I put the burden of maintaining those relationships. to a large degree, on my own shoulders, that I know that it's up to me. If we have a particularly contentious back and forth on the show, I decide what happens in the commercial break. I can either be normal and talk about kids or whatever else is going on in life, or I can continue it. And I choose to save that for times when it really matters to me and where I feel like. Speaker 7 (16:07) some line has been crossed. Well, give an example of this using this technique. I mean, one could argue like, you don't kibitz with fascists, right? Like, I'm thinking Jennifer Welch's book is like, not today fascist, essentially. Speaker 6 (16:22) Yeah, Jennifer Welch's brand of politics is a lot more rough and tumble than mine. She also occupies a very different space, and I would argue is reaching a very different audience. I mean, she's not converting people necessarily. She's reinforcing something. I think their voice, hers and Angie's, you know, coming from Oklahoma City, it's very important to know what goes on in those blue dots in red states. And obviously their backgrounds are very interesting, but it's a totally different ballgame. And I mean, they've created this huge platform for themselves, but that kind of language. I mean, you just wouldn't use that in a place of work. And I have taken to heart how many Americans have shown up at the polls and voted for people that we have called fascists and Nazis for a very long time. So obviously, they don't think that that. It works. Or they think economic policy is more important or an immigration policy that involves a closed border. And so I don't want to be a Debbie Downer about everything. And, you know, I like to throw a haymaker every once in a while. But people are much more culturally conservative than we thought that they were and actually more fiscally liberal. which I find very interesting, that you could actually be using more of that language, like how John Ossoff is talking about the Epstein class and the corruption class and the billionaires, James Tallarico as well. I didn't actually expect that would be tolerated at this level, that it has, the disparity has gotten so wide and income inequality is so enormous that someone from a state like Georgia. could be talking the same as Bernie Sanders, essentially. But when it comes to cultural issues, that's just not where people are. And I know, and I get into this a lot with some of my more progressive friends about, you know, trans athletes, for instance. And, you know, you give an inch, they're going to take a mile. Why do you even need to talk about what you're talking about 10 people on the NCAA level? And my point has always been, we can't go around telling people who are essentially running a sanity check on us. Like, do you think there's a biological advantage to someone who went through puberty as a man? Yeah. No matter how much gender-affirming care you have had, there remains certain advantages. And if you can't say that, then they look at you like you've lost the plot. This is how Andy Beshear deals with it. Speaker 7 (19:00) Right, right, right. I get that. We're going to deal with trans issues later. I have some, I think they've made it into a bigger deal than it is. They Speaker 6 (19:06) absolutely have. But if you just say no, I won't. I get it. This is like you're not legitimate or I'm not platforming. It's Speaker 7 (19:13) like Speaker 6 (19:13) eating the Speaker 7 (19:13) cats and eating the dogs to me at this point. Speaking of what you were