Ari Emanuel on his New Memoir, ‘Ragent’ Reputation, and Changing Hollywood

On with Kara Swisher

In a candid live conversation, Kara Swisher sits down with Hollywood powerhouse Ari Emanuel to discuss his new memoir, 'Roll the Calls,' and how his signature 'rage' fueled his rise from a dyslexic talent agent to the CEO of TKO.

Key takeaways

• Ari Emanuel co-founded Endeavor, merged it with WMA, and later built TKO by combining WWE and UFC into a dominant sports and entertainment conglomerate.
• Emanuel attributes his relentless drive to dyslexia and a lifelong need to prove himself against his accomplished brothers, Rahm and Zeke Emanuel.

Main topics

• Memoir reflection & the function of rage
• Hollywood consolidation & studio mergers

Notable quotes

"Every story starts with rage, and every story one way or another ends up there."

Conclusion

The episode provides a grounded look at how personal drive, industry consolidation, and technological

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:00) Ari was very sweet to me and he gave me a hat as I got in here and it says rage Which I thought was very cute And the note said I'll just read it really quickly for you. Oh, I can't find it He basically said thank you so much for doing this and if it doesn't go well, fuck you Speaker 6 (0:30) Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Ari Emanuel, executive chair and CEO of TKO and the executive chairman of the WME Group. We spoke in front of a live audience during an event hosted by Live Talks Los Angeles. His long history in Hollywood includes co-founding the talent agency Endeavor, then merging it with the William Morris Agency to create one of the largest talent representation firms in the country. He brought WWE and UFC together with his sports enterprise TKO and also founded the live events company Mari. His new memoir, Roll the Calls, is out now, and actually it's about his agenting. He calls himself a... Of course, you know him from the show Entourage, Ari Gold, but it's not the same. And actually, it's a really gripping and interesting book that is, I think, unintended, quite painfully talking about himself. And it's worth a read. Our expert question today comes from his famous brothers, Rahm and Zeke Emanuel. Rahm is a former mayor of Chicago and served as a White House chief of staff under President Obama. He was also the ambassador to Japan. Zeke is an oncologist, bioethicist, and health policy expert at the University of Chicago. University of Pennsylvania and served as a senior policy advisor in the Obama administration. Most importantly, they are his brothers. It's quite a trio. And Ari is my least favorite Emanuel, as I like to tell him. So stick around. Speaker 5 (2:05) Hey, it's Sue Bird. I'm back this week with a brand new episode of Bird's Eye View. I am joined by Portland Fire head coach Alex Sarama to discuss bringing his unique coaching style to the WNBA and channeling this year's momentum into the Fire's next season. But first, Coach Sarama and I break down the action from round one of the playoffs. Make sure to check out Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (2:28) Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all. Legacy, stability, and digital innovation. Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities. Speaker 3 (2:59) Megan Rapinoe here. This week on Why Are You Like This, I am talking with Jaden Shaw. We're diving into the highs, the lows, the unexpected turns the Gotham midfielder has gone through in her career. I'm also weighing in on the latest USWNT roster to drop on their road to the World Cup next summer. Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Speaker 6 (3:28) Ari, thanks for coming on on. Speaker 8 (3:30) Oh, thank you. Speaker 6 (3:35) I'm going to start with all the feels at this top, but we're not going to be talking about the following, if you don't mind. We're not talking about Ari Gold. Speaker 8 (3:43) Okay. Speaker 6 (3:43) I don't give a fuck about him. Eating worms in your demented health regimen, which is just a way. You don't give a fuck Speaker 8 (3:49) about that. I don't at all. I don't Speaker 6 (3:50) care Speaker 8 (3:50) when you die. Thank God. Speaker 6 (3:52) Your manic travel schedule. Speaker 8 (3:54) Don't give a fuck about that. I Speaker 6 (3:55) don't. And the porn scene in The Departed. So I'm sorry if you're here to hear about that, but we're not going to do that. But the first line of your memoir is a Raoul Walsh quote. He's a director about work, in fact, how important it is, and doing the work, which is what I think this book is actually about. And I think this is a work drama more than anything else that you've done here about power and who has it and who doesn't and how to get it, essentially. I don't think it's about rage, actually, even though you talk about rage all the time and at the beginning of the book. I do think that is your, what I call a jazz hands brand, like mine as being a spiky lesbian. Speaker 8 (4:35) Oh my God, you're a spiky lesbian? I am indeed. Oh, Jesus. Very, Speaker 6 (4:38) quite spiky. But you lay it on thick, and I'm going to quote you. Every story starts with rage, and every story one way or another ends up there. Rage or be complicit. We fight and we fuck. Wrestling without rage is just cuddling. There is no little enemy. history has been shaped by bad moods as much as good intentions. And of course, you coined the phrase ragent, Speaker 2 (5:01) which Speaker 6 (5:01) is what you are, a raging agent, I suppose. But talk about what has your tough guy facade enabled you to do over the course of your career, and how has it helped or hurt you? Can I just Speaker 8 (5:11) say the following? You're in a rage, I know. Exactly. So Cormac McCarthy, I think, said, rage is there for the things that you can fix. The rest is grief. And I think that actually kind of is me, you know? I would rather... get to the rage and deal with the rage and try and find an identity. Because in my family, as you know my brothers very well, there was Zeke, the smart one, Ram, the artist, and the other one. Speaker 6 (5:42) Yeah. Speaker 8 (5:43) And let Speaker 6 (5:44) me say in advance, I'm sorry for calling you my least favorite Emmanuel. Speaker 8 (5:47) It's okay. They're great. Speaker 6 (5:49) Yes, they are great. Yeah, but go ahead. Speaker 8 (5:51) So when you have that and, you know, and you come into the house and the grades go up, and you're dyslexic, and in my house, that was important. Speaker 1 (6:04) Like, Speaker 8 (6:05) from an immigrant father and a mother, you know. And so you get pissed off because you're not stupid, and you want to find your place and then work. I only had, when I got out here with, and I came out here, my friend Pete Berg was out here, I had plan A. There was no plan B. Right. And I would do anything for plan A because I wanted. To have an identity and this thing for whatever reason flip the switch in me and Speaker 8 (6:44) There was no way I was going to let anybody stand in my way to getting to this place. And I didn't even know where it was. Speaker 7 (6:51) I Speaker 8 (6:52) just was like, one, I loved it. I was happy about it. It was difficult. But I had to get to my identity. And anything that stood in my way created rage. Speaker 6 (7:04) But why use the word rage? And you were quoting from... I was fucking Speaker 8 (7:07) pissed. When somebody fucked with my own story in my head of... The chess match I was playing to get to where I wanted to be. Speaker 8 (7:17) Like in wrestling, I didn't like that dude. Speaker 8 (7:23) That's what caused a lot of... But Speaker 6 (7:27) who precisely were you mad at in the first place? Well, Speaker 8 (7:30) that took a lot of onion peeling, right? I didn't know at the beginning. That's when Dr. Calm came in. This Speaker 6 (7:40) is his therapist in the book. Speaker 8 (7:41) So it was... I was just mad. I Speaker 7 (7:47) had Speaker 8 (7:48) no kind of destiny or person. Speaker 7 (7:51) And Speaker 8 (7:51) kind of I was looking for a place where I could be recognized as being really good. And also the rage came from, I think, this is me being my own Dr. Com. Speaker 8 (8:08) you know, not wanting to be discovered as the stupid brother, Speaker 6 (8:13) right? Speaker 8 (8:14) Or that somebody would discover that you're not smart. And so when you're just battling in your own mind, and it's a tough business anyway, Speaker 6 (8:23) you Speaker 8 (8:24) know, you... You just work really hard. There's a lot of people standing in your way and you have a place you think you want to get to. true or imaginary. Speaker 6 (8:35) So bullying through is the way to Speaker 8 (8:37) do so. Speaker 6 (8:37) Yeah, Speaker 8 (8:37) that's how I did it until the point in time I realized when we had Endeavor. I couldn't get even farther with just rage and aggression with people that worked for me, that were loyal to me and loyal. Speaker 6 (8:52) So sometimes it manifested in actual violence, like you hit someone with a lunch tray. That's Speaker 8 (8:57) when I was young. Oh, well, Speaker 6 (8:59) you know. Well, he was making fun. Here's the other Speaker 8 (9:03) thing. He was making fun of somebody because I was in special ed. Speaker 6 (9:07) And Speaker 8 (9:07) he was making fun of somebody. Speaker 6 (9:08) Right. Speaker 8 (9:09) Somebody I knew. And, you know, I asked him not to do it. Stop. And he decided not to do that. Speaker 6 (9:16) Right. And Speaker 8 (9:17) so, okay, there's only, it's like picking up a chair in Mike Owen's office. There's only one other play. Really? I'm going to kick the shit out of you. There Speaker 6 (9:24) wasn't a play of I'll pour jello on your head or I'll slap you silly? Because Speaker 8 (9:28) that wasn't in the cards at that point. It wasn't. That wasn't a choice for you. But it's kind of a speak to... Depending on how this ends, if there's a lunch tray, you never know. See, here's... No, you know that. No, Speaker 6 (9:41) I don't care. You can try. Speaker 6 (9:44) I don't think you're going to win a throwdown with a lesbian. I just don't think it's happening for you. You're a little guy. I know you're a wrestler, but I have moves myself. Speaker 6 (9:55) I have the richest man in the world calling me evil, so I'm good. Like, I'll be good with you. It'll be simple. Although he's a lot slower and fatter. He doesn't move as fast. You're talking about your pal. But anyway, we'll get to him in a minute. But it's kind of a speak-truth-to-power meme. And you make an argument in the book, which is really interesting, that anger negotiators are better, for example. But a person you trashed Speaker 8 (10:21) in Speaker 6 (10:21) the book, I'm not going to tell you who it was because there were so many, Wrote to me, I'm offended as a member of the business world that he espouses rage as positive behavior. How do you answer that? Speaker 8 (10:32) Fuck him. Speaker 6 (10:37) All right. I'd like. And he's Speaker 8 (10:38) full of shit, whoever that one is, because I promise you. Speaker 8 (10:42) Multiple people that you're talking about. in their own way were rageful. Maybe they kept it in and they were trying to present, fuck them, they're full of shit. I'm walking to the room, you know exactly what you're going to get, and I'm good with that. Speaker 6 (10:55) There's Speaker 8 (10:56) no kind of pretense. If lights are on, guns are out, we're going. Speaker 6 (11:02) Actual guns? That's me. Okay. But answer that seriously. Is it positive behavior? Is it the best way to go about things? I mean, you had a partner. First of all, Speaker 8 (11:11) it's not always that way. Right. Yeah, there's many levels to trying to negotiate and get what you want. Right, sure. One of them. It is that way. Speaker 6 (11:22) Yeah. Speaker 8 (11:23) And you got to be backing it up. Speaker 6 (11:25) Great. Speaker 8 (11:27) Other ways, I wouldn't get to where I was if it was only rage. Speaker 6 (11:30) Right, right, right. I've got some other Speaker 8 (11:32) moves. Speaker 6 (11:32) I understand that. I'm just Speaker 8 (11:34) letting you know. I Speaker 6 (11:34) know that. One of your moves is to call people incessantly, like you try to do with me. One thing I do to drive him crazy is I don't pick up. Speaker 8 (11:41) Yeah. Speaker 6 (11:42) And then he can text, right? I don't like that. I know, any normal fucking person texts you. But Speaker 8 (11:47) if texting existed and then all of a sudden they created the phone, fuck. You can call somebody? Yeah. Speaker 6 (11:55) That Speaker 8 (11:55) would be the cool thing. Speaker 6 (11:56) Yeah, I don't pick up. I'm still acting. And the problem is his poor... That was Speaker 8 (11:59) not my line. You know whose line that was? Ron Myers. Speaker 6 (12:02) Okay. But I thought this memoir actually reveals a lot about you, some of which might be unintentional. This is what I felt as I was reading. I recently told Scott Galloway on Pivot that it was accidentally thoughtful. Speaker 6 (12:18) What do you think? That's funny. What do you think this... Speaker 8 (12:21) I love that you laugh at yourself. I do. It was funny. Cranking yourself up. Oh, Speaker 6 (12:25) I'm funny. So what do you think it divulges about you? And I think it's a more interesting story in how soft you might be, actually. And I thought that your ghostwriter, J.R. Moringer, got a lot out of you. Speaker 8 (12:40) How do you... I guess here's how I live my life. You know, like in computers, what is it called, RSI? Is it where the computer, we're afraid of AI or SI, whatever the fuck they're calling it now. Speaker 6 (12:54) Yeah, we're not calling it that. Speaker 8 (12:55) We're going to call it AI, right? Donald Speaker 6 (12:57) Trump just named it SI versus AI. Right. Speaker 8 (13:01) Whatever. Okay. Recursive self-improvement. And I think that's dangerous for SI, AI, but for humans. Speaker 6 (13:13) And Speaker 8 (13:14) this is what I try and do. And then I think this is what my parents taught us, me and my brothers. You know, you want to live a meaningful life as opposed to just a pleasurable life and a meaningful life that has a purpose that actually does bring you pleasure. And to do that, you have to constantly be working on yourself and trying to get better. Speaker 7 (13:38) And Speaker 8 (13:38) through all the mistakes you make, and I've made a lot, and I hopefully tell them what they are. Speaker 8 (13:47) So I have tried, Ariana Huffington sent me this article about RSI, reflective self-improvement in computers, and that we should do it as humans. And it kind of struck me that, yeah, that's kind of how I've lived my life. And I hope to get, I'm not there yet. I'm going to work until the end to get there, to constantly get better. I hope, I have two of my four kids here. I've become a better father. I think I've become... maybe not this last two weeks with my beautiful wife, a better husband and a better person in a relationship. Speaker 6 (14:20) And Speaker 8 (14:21) I hope that I become a better leader and partner to people in my company. And that's not a soft side. That's just somebody trying to get better. You Speaker 6 (14:31) know, soft is not a bad word, but I actually think it was there from the beginning. There's bits of it that get revealed that I'm not. Well, here's what I Speaker 8 (14:39) would say to you is, I'm a ride or die guy with people that I like. Speaker 8 (14:45) unless you turn around and try and do something stupid. And you don't ever have to worry if I'm going to be there for you. I'm going to be right next to you. I'm going to be in front of you. I'm going to be doing everything to help you. Speaker 8 (15:04) That's how my parents brought us up as three boys together. Speaker 8 (15:08) and they gave us our morals and... Speaker 8 (15:13) when I'm in a relationship, you don't have to worry whether I'm in that relationship. And that goes all the way back. I Speaker 6 (15:20) get that. But it's more of, for example, the Robbie Lance part. He called you Ari, right? Right. He Speaker 8 (15:27) had this Austrian accent. Speaker 6 (15:29) Austrian accent. He clearly got to you in a way that was really interesting. I'm not sure if it was a cautionary tale of how not to end up or perhaps somewhat of a doomed love letter to this guy. Talk a little bit about that relationship because you clocked him right away. He Speaker 8 (15:45) taught me, you know, and I was like a sponge. He taught me the beginnings of what it meant to be an agent. And people called you back because of who you represented. And that wasn't a bad thing. And if you lost them in this game, it's part of the game. You just have to accept it. And it was just some lovely principles. And he was just a really... nice man and he treated me well and he let me kind of experiment but he was just a great beginning kind of teacher of the business and when Speaker 8 (16:17) You know, Mike Ovitz stole Al Pacino and then put him in Revolution. And, exactly. And it was okay. And he got that. Speaker 6 (16:30) Yeah. Speaker 8 (16:30) And he said, you know, I'm not going to do anything. I'm too old. Go out. And he set a meeting