Andy Cohen Built the Bravoverse. He Still Thinks Like a Producer.

On with Kara Swisher

Kara Swisher sits down with Bravo icon Andy Cohen to trace the evolution of the Bravoverse from its early days with Queer Eye and Project Runway to the global juggernaut that

Key takeaways

• Andy Cohen identifies himself primarily as a producer and broadcaster rather than a reality star, citing editorial control over his own public persona.
• Cohen defends Real Housewives as a feminist show that has given women a platform to discuss sexuality, divorce, and autonomy over the past two decades.

Main topics

• Bravo network history and programming strategy
• Real Housewives franchise cultural impact and feminism debate

Notable quotes

"I think I'm a broadcaster. I'm a ringleader of sorts... I'm a producer and a broadcaster is what I really am."

Conclusion

The episode offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the business and cultural machinery powering one of

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) You know, BravoCon we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely idolize the almost 200 Bravo Leberties that go and take part in it. Yes, Bravo Leberties, Cara. And they are able to sell things at booths. They are able to... Like Speaker 2 (0:19) a Speaker 3 (0:19) giant Speaker 7 (0:19) Star Trek convention. Speaker 3 (0:21) Yes, Speaker 7 (0:21) I Speaker 3 (0:21) mean, they're, you know, yeah. It's on! Speaker 2 (0:33) Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Andy Cohen. the host and executive producer of Watch What Happens Live and executive producer of the Real Housewives franchise. He curates two SiriusXM channels, Radio Andy and Andy Cohen's Kiki Lounge, runs his own book imprint, and co-hosts CNN's New Year's Eve Live with Anderson Cooper. He's also the author of several best-selling memoirs, and his latest book is Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, which is out October 20th. I always want to talk to Andy. I met him a long time ago. He probably doesn't remember. But he's always really interesting. And I think a lot like, oddly enough, Ryan Seacrest and others sort of undersung in how much business he does. And so I want to talk about business and, of course, his quirky personality. relationships, and also his outspokenness against President Trump, which is, I think, unusual in the celebrity area. But of course, not the person we asked to do the expert question, Rosie O'Donnell, legendary comedian and talk show host. She's also an outspoken activist and recently wrapped up a stint as guest host of Jimmy Kimmel Live on ABC. So stick around. Speaker 5 (1:51) Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And the Guardian's not owned by a billionaire. They fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com slash stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com slash stateside. Speaker 5 (2:35) Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at odoo.com slash Cara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Cara. Speaker 1 (3:19) Hogging seats on a crowded train, not saying excuse me, watching videos on your phone with no headphones in. Sometimes it feels like we don't know how to act anymore. What we have been seeing increasingly is people breaking rules. Why should I play by the rules if nobody else is going to do that for me? This week on Explain It To Me, how to mind your manners. New episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (3:50) Oh. Andy, thanks for coming on on. Speaker 7 (3:53) Thanks for having me. Speaker 2 (3:54) I kind of stalked you, didn't I? Through Anderson Cooper. You Speaker 7 (3:57) know what? By the way, a flattering stalk. Speaker 2 (3:59) Yeah, yeah. I would say. Do you know where we met? You don't know. You probably don't remember. That's Speaker 7 (4:05) okay. Speaker 2 (4:05) I'm scared. It's Speaker 7 (4:06) all Speaker 2 (4:06) right. We were at dinner at the Sunset Towers with Lauren Zelaznik. Early days. Wow. Long time ago. Long time ago. And you were there and you were hysterical at the head of the table. Speaker 7 (4:18) Okay. Yeah, Speaker 2 (4:19) you were great. But Speaker 7 (4:20) was it just the three of us? Speaker 2 (4:21) No, it was one of those Lauren dinners. Yes, yes. You Speaker 8 (4:24) know Speaker 2 (4:24) what I mean? And I had just finished the Code Conference and I had interviewed all the tech people. And you were actually, you had some questions about Mark Zuckerberg and everybody else. Yes, okay. Wow, I didn't remember that. It Speaker 3 (4:34) was Speaker 8 (4:34) fledgling days. Because Lauren deserves a lot of credit, all of you do, about what it was. But at the time, I think it was Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. There was a couple of... It Speaker 3 (4:42) was Project Runway, Queer Eye. Yeah, we started with... And then we... And then we added Top Chef to do what Project Runway was doing for Fashion for Food. And then a little show called The Real Housewives. Right. A Speaker 2 (4:57) little show. A little show. We're going to get into that. But it was Speaker 8 (4:59) really interesting because at the time, Queer Eye was unusual and strange. Speaker 3 (5:03) Queer Eye was really the thing that turned Bravo around. And that was before my time. I got the pitch for Queer Eye. I was working for Barry Diller at a small arts channel. And you knew from that pitch that it was going to be amazing. But Bravo actually cast it with them. And it was amazing. And so, yes, but Lauren brought me over to Bravo in 2004. Speaker 3 (5:28) And now I've been there 22 years, which is wild. I Speaker 8 (5:31) know. It was early on. And one of the things was that you all were Speaker 2 (5:35) sort of the side, you know, people look for the fancy entertainment. And this was more people's entertainment in a lot of ways. And at the time, I thought it was going to be huge because it also kind of tracked what Speaker 8 (5:45) was happening online, which is a much more personal parasocial relationship people have with television that hadn't been separate. Speaker 3 (5:53) Watch What Happens Live, I think, was one of the first. We're now. We've been going 17 years, but, you know, the only live show in late night and also a show that was really driven by viewer comments. Right. And Speaker 8 (6:05) live Speaker 3 (6:06) polls. And so they're kind of the fourth person in the clubhouse driving the conversation. Speaker 8 (6:14) And at the time it was looked upon as shabby kind of thing. Same thing with the Kardashians. And I had just interviewed. Kim Kardashian, because I thought it was fascinating what she was doing online at the time. Speaker 3 (6:23) Yeah, well, Speaker 8 (6:23) you Speaker 3 (6:23) figured that out. Speaker 8 (6:24) Well, early. And I had actually invited her to this conference, and she was like, why do you want me here? And I was like, what you're doing is parasocial. So 20 years into the Real Housewives franchise, which really did— Well, you're in your 20 now, Speaker 2 (6:35) yes. Speaker 8 (6:35) That Speaker 2 (6:35) was the Speaker 8 (6:35) jet fuel of the whole thing, even though those other shows were the beginnings of what you saw. And you're the face of the Bravo TV network, obviously. And most people Speaker 2 (6:42) see you, you know, as a reality TV celebrity, like the people on— the franchise. Talk about what set yourself apart from the stars you also created, because you're at the center of it. Well, right. Speaker 3 (6:56) I am, you know, I'm not on the shows. So, well, it's funny that you say that. I just had this debate with a writer for Vulture who said, you're a reality star. And I said, I don't think I am. I said, I think I'm a broadcaster. I'm a ringleader of sorts. which my publicist hates that expression. But, you know, in some sense, it's there. But I mean, look, I'm a producer and a broadcaster is what I really am. Right. Speaker 2 (7:29) Why do you go away from that idea that you yourself Speaker 7 (7:32) are a character? You know what? I Speaker 3 (7:34) think because I have control of my own edit. So I take it as far as I want it to go. I was dating someone for a year before anyone found out about it, and they found out about it against—it was not on my timing that they found out about it. They were going to, but I was going to be in charge of when I said it. So, you know, no one is in charge of my edit. You're Speaker 8 (7:56) the Speaker 3 (7:56) reality Speaker 8 (7:56) star god, Speaker 7 (7:57) really. Well, Speaker 8 (7:58) I Speaker 3 (7:58) don't know about that. Minor Speaker 8 (8:00) god? Speaker 7 (8:02) You know. Duke? Yeah, Duke. You're the Duke. That's nice. A Vicon. Speaker 8 (8:07) But for people that understand, as you did notice, you're the producer. Even though you're the face of it, you work behind the scenes in television. Let's talk about that. Speaker 3 (8:14) You know, Conan is someone that I've really bonded with about this because he was a writer and then he wound up hosting The Tonight Show. I've been a producer for my whole career. I was at CBS News from 1990 to 2000. And then I was working for Barry, launching this cable channel. And then I went and started working for Bravo in 2004. And so at some point during that run, and I was in charge of programming and we launched all these shows, including The Real Housewives, she knew that I had wanted to be on the air when I was at CBS years ago. I'd wanted to be on the air. My friend Jay Kurnis, who's still a producer at Sunday Morning, said, well, you have this wonky eye, so I don't think you're going to get on the air, which I do. Speaker 3 (9:05) So I kind of just focused on being behind the scenes, which was amazing, by the way. And Lauren knew I still wanted to do this. I was writing a blog. I was one of the first TV executives to have a daily blog, not only about the show, but also it was kind of I was going out every night and Speaker 8 (9:22) doing Speaker 3 (9:22) things. Speaker 3 (9:25) I was kind of branding myself before that was a thing, an annoying thing. It was almost like a Speaker 8 (9:29) podcast kind of thing. Yes. But you grew up in St. Louis watching soap operas like all my children. Talk to me about those soaps that shaped your idea of entertainment. Speaker 3 (9:39) Well, I think The Real Housewives is the great American, well, now international, you know, docu-soap opera. And it's real, and these are real people. But I think if you look at the care that we have taken in producing that show and keeping it on the air and taking people out and bringing people in and bringing people back and using flashbacks and... It's really, it is influenced in part by certainly my love, and I think a lot of producers that we have working with us, a reverence for the daytime drama. Right. My grandmother called Speaker 8 (10:16) them her stories. Yeah. Because I'm watching my stories. Right, Speaker 3 (10:18) exactly. And I loved all my children. Speaker 3 (10:22) There was a moment in time where I wanted to be a writer for Soaps, and I came up with a Bible of what I—where it was like a year of storylines of all my children. You Speaker 7 (10:32) did this. I did it, yeah, when I was in Speaker 3 (10:34) college. Wow. But I also was super interested in broadcast journalism. So I went that way. But the great thing for me there was that I really learned about storytelling in the edit room. I was working for 48 hours, and those were long-form stories. Character-driven stories where you could pick up little ticks about someone's life in 48 hours and craft a piece around that person. And I will say those working at CBS News and hitting deadlines, I mean, that was— Gave you discipline. It gave me not only discipline, but it gave me the ability to make fast decisions in the field as they related to storytelling and writing. I was writing on deadlines. I have a new book out called Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, and it's 20 years behind the scenes of the Housewives and the Bravoverse. And these are all photos that I've taken. Right. It Speaker 8 (11:31) reminded me of the SNL book. Do you remember that? Yes. The first season of SNL. Speaker 3 (11:35) I mean, these are photos that I've taken from behind the scenes of Bravo. But the reason I say it is I've written five other books and I am a very deadline oriented person. And I got that from CBS News. I mean, you start as an intern. I was an intern in Speaker 7 (11:49) 1989. Yeah, I was an intern at The Washington Post. Speaker 3 (11:52) Great. I Speaker 8 (11:53) mean, you Speaker 3 (11:53) can't beat it. No, you can't beat it. Speaker 7 (11:55) And Speaker 3 (11:55) then I graduated college in 90 and I moved to New York and I was like, I want to work at CBS News. And a desk assistant left soon after. and I got a job there. Speaker 8 (12:05) And the thing you did for Barry was Trio, right? Trio, yes. Where did that go? Speaker 7 (12:10) It was Brilliant But Cancelled. Brilliant Speaker 8 (12:12) But Cancelled. So what was, you didn't want to stay in news, that pop culture and entertainment were always your thing? You Speaker 3 (12:17) know what, I had a very great job and standing at CBS News. But Barry had become a friend of mine and he knew me and he believed in me. And he offered me a job as head of programming at this cable channel he was starting. And he said, look, and the idea for this pop culture and arts channel was that it would be kind of a more accessible version of PBS. And it would be high and low. And my whole career has been high and low. Sort Speaker 8 (12:51) of like Tina Brown at Vanity Fair. I think Speaker 3 (12:53) so. I think high and low is the way to go. Yeah. Speaker 8 (12:56) And you were attracted to the pop culture and its impact on society. And Speaker 3 (12:59) I thought, when am I ever going to get the chance to learn about programming television from Barry Diller? So it was a decision made for me. Speaker 8 (13:08) One of the things that people thought initially about this stuff was tapping into people's voyeuristic tendencies, which has been around forever. And, of course, there was MTV's Real World, Mark Burnett shows like Survivor and The Apprentice. How are you thinking, conceiving of Housewives with that backdrop? Because those had been on previously. A Speaker 7 (13:30) man named Scott Dunlop brought us a tape of these women in Orange County. Speaker 3 (13:35) And they were, the show was not decided on what it would be. But we thought these women were aspirational in a way we hadn't seen. This insurance agent named Vicky. talked about getting her breasts enlarged, yet she was a mom, yet she had a grotto in her backyard, and her kids were beautiful. And the way that they talked to their kids was certainly different than we were talking to our kids on the East Coast. And it was just a window inside a world, and there was something sexy about it. And at that time, Desperate Housewives was a big hit on ABC. And we just said, let's follow these women and tell their stories. And for me, it was localized in the way that they all lived in the same neighborhood. This is where it was pinging for me. I was like, this is like Pine Valley. This is a reality. They all had opinions about the other women. They were all friends. We made the men secondary characters. And the women were in front. It was always going to be told from their point of view. And that's kind of how it started. Speaker 8 (14:44) So obviously Andy Warhol is known for the quote, in the future everyone will be famous for five minutes. You've talked a lot about how Warhol is a major inspiration for you. He said if he was alive today, part of you thinks he would be painting the Real Housewives and they would be part of the factory. Right. Talk about the way he approached fame and why that has impacted him. Well, Speaker 3 (15:02) I mean, I think that he saw people as superstars. I mean, I think if you look at his superstars, you know, they were unique people. From all over who landed in New York, who were this group of misfits who he wanted to kind of make into stars, but they were already stars to him. So it's wild to me now, 20 years into the Housewives, that they are all international stars. Speaker 3 (15:30) I think that Warhol also, look, he predicted reality television. What Speaker 2 (15:36) would he do today? Speaker 3 (15:37) What would he do today besides painting Housewives? Well, I don't know because it's an explosion of everything that he, you