MIKAYLA NOGUEIRA EXCLUSIVE: The Story She’s Finally Ready to Tell

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Jay Shetty interviews beauty creator Mikayla Nogueira about her journey from a creative small-town childhood to becoming a viral social media sensation and Sephora brand founder. Mikayla opens

Key takeaways

• Mikayla Nogueira started a YouTube channel and beauty blog at age 14 despite classmates mocking her dreams.
• She worked at Ulta Beauty after college, where an interview with manager Lindsay led to a makeup artist role instead of cashier.

Main topics

• Childhood creativity & bullying
• Early social media hustle & Ulta career

Notable quotes

I'm a very insecure person and I struggle a lot with my self-esteem, but I have a lot of confidence about who I am.

Conclusion

The episode offers a raw look at the psychological and professional realities behind viral fame,

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Speaker 1 (0:24) Today, we're speaking with Mikaela Nogueira, one of the biggest and most influential beauty creators in the world, with more than 20 million followers across social media. We're going beyond what you see online to talk about the person behind it all, the reality of massive success, and the pressure of living so publicly. Please welcome to On Purpose, Mikaela Nogueira. Hi. Mikaela, welcome to On Speaker 3 (0:48) Purpose. Hi, Jay. Very happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Speaker 1 (0:52) Thank you. I'm so grateful to have you here. You've been so private about your journey for so long. Yeah. Why was now the right time and this the right place to open up? Speaker 3 (1:03) I feel like I'm at a turning point in my life. You know, I'm almost 30 and my 20s have been a really interesting journey for me. And I'm beginning to feel like I'm really learning who I am and who I want to be. And I knew I wanted to save space to talk about this and who better than you. So. Speaker 1 (1:21) Thank you for trusting me. I don't take that for granted. And I've been following your journey for quite some time and it's pretty remarkable what you've achieved. But I'm fascinated by the Michaela that. we don't see or don't fully understand. And I heard you say recently that you only ever saw yourself as Michaela, the influencer. And I'm intrigued if you take away the money and the makeup and the businesses and the success, how do you define who Michaela is today? Speaker 3 (1:49) So I think I've always been someone who is very outspoken, very loud about who I am. very proud about who I am just because I find that we're in a society where everyone wants you to fit in and be someone maybe you're not. And I grew up always wanting to be exactly who I am, Michaela. And that is someone who is very curious, very, I'm a Gemini. I don't know if you're into astrology, Speaker 2 (2:14) but Speaker 3 (2:15) I'm a very curious person. I'm very, very creative. I grew up in a very artistic household. My mom's a professional artist. My dad is an antique. appraiser and collector. And I was just always surrounded by that. So I'm very known to be eclectic and artsy with my makeup and just different, but I never wanted to fit in. I always wanted to be different. And I kind of like that, you Speaker 2 (2:40) know, Speaker 1 (2:40) I'm a Virgo. Okay. So I'm giving it away now. So you're into the astrology. Yes, totally. Not as much. I don't know so much, but I, but I enjoy the conversation around it. If you want to make any judgments about me, you can feel free. I love that you just said that you liked Speaker 3 (2:55) to be different. Yeah, I love being different. And I Speaker 1 (2:57) think most people just want to fit in. Yes. Especially when they're young. What's your earliest memory of being comfortable being different? From Speaker 3 (3:06) birth. I mean, I really give credit to my mom because my mom knows how to sew. So she would actually sew all of my outfits and she would make these really fun, crazy, colorful, patterned dresses. So, you know, I'm going to school with a big bow on my head, these crazy dresses that my mom made, and she would actually make the matching dress for herself. So that's how you know that I really get it from her. And she was just always so open about who she was. And I really admired that from a young, young age. And I get that from her. So growing up, all going to school, I always looked different than everybody else because of these outfits I would wear. But teachers always appreciated it and said, she's really interesting. And I feel like she's going to do something really interesting in her life because I was just so different from everybody else, which is not a bad thing. I never saw it as a bad thing. Speaker 1 (3:55) But you experienced bullying for that, right? Oh, Speaker 3 (3:57) absolutely. When you were younger, Speaker 1 (3:58) like for the way you looked. And even recently I've heard you say that, and this was in your own words, you were saying, I feel I'm a beauty influencer who doesn't think I'm beautiful. And like, you know, you're seen in that way. Like, how did you deal with that bullying and that othering when you were younger? Because I imagine you didn't have the success at that time. You didn't have what you've built at that time. How did you deal with it? Speaker 3 (4:19) Well, I began wearing makeup really young. I was only 10 when I began doing the winged eyeliner and lipstick and everything like that. I was the only kid at school wearing makeup at the time. And I got really good at it really young. So by the time I'm, you know, 14, 15, 16, I am going to school with a full beat on my face. And I was really the only one doing that. And people definitely look down on that, especially when I grew up in a very... almost conservative area where everyone dresses relatively conservative and no one's really doing things that are considered different. So me being that type of person, it was a challenge, but I never gave up on it because I always knew that I was meant to do that. And even in high school, I decided really early on that I wanted to do something in social media and online. So, you know, I'm 14 creating a YouTube channel. I'm 14 creating a blog about beauty. People always laughed and said, this is ridiculous. You're not going to go anywhere with this. Delete your YouTube channel. My classmates would go on my YouTube channel and comment the worst things and hoping I would just stop. And I never did. Speaker 1 (5:29) I love that confidence. Speaker 3 (5:31) That's remarkable. I've always found that really interesting about myself. I'm a very insecure person and I struggle a lot with my self-esteem, but I have a lot of confidence about who I am. And I've always thought that, isn't that weird? Yeah, explain that to me. It's not weird, it's Speaker 1 (5:47) just fascinating. Speaker 3 (5:48) It's fascinating. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I'm really self-aware. I don't know why that is. But I'm very self-aware of my insecurities, self-aware of how low my self-esteem is, self-aware of my mental health and how I self-sabotage myself in certain ways because of mental health. So because I know all of these things, I feel like I have a really good sense of who I am. And that allows me to be confident in the person I am and who I'm becoming. At the end of the day, when I lay my head on the pillow, those insecurities still exist. I know at the end of the day, it's all in my head. And I know I'm capable of doing great things without letting those insecurities get in the way. Speaker 1 (6:27) Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com forward slash teen accounts. Naturally, I think we all see our flaws. We all know our insecurities. But we don't want those flaws and insecurities and shortcomings to block us from going out there. Right. And doing something incredible. And it feels like you've built up a healthy relationship with both of those things. Definitely. To some degree. Talk to me about how you became aware of your insecurities or your shortcomings or whatever you see those as, but didn't let them block you. Speaker 3 (7:10) When I decided to go on social media and really put myself out there. I mean, that's a big decision. I'm going to put my whole life online. I think that was the moment where I really realized I am okay with who I am because I, if you've seen my videos, you know, I'm a little bit loud. I'm a little bit out there. I try to be funny. Sometimes I'm screaming in your face. I'm very clickbaity. Like there's a lot going on in my videos. But that is who I am when I'm with my safest group of Speaker 2 (7:38) people. Speaker 3 (7:39) Because I'm Speaker 2 (7:40) a Speaker 3 (7:40) Gemini, there's different versions of me. There's this soft version you're getting right now where I'm very. composed and just I feel safe and I feel comfortable. But then when I'm around like family and friends and people I love, I'm very loud. I'm very talkative. I'm almost annoying. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I think when I went online and I took that safe piece of me where I can be loud, I can be myself because you have to realize I'm filming these videos in a room by myself. So there's nothing making me say, oh, I can't be who I am. And I film my videos almost as if it's a video diary. where I'm just going to post this. And at the time when I began on social media, it wasn't as if I thought anyone was going to see it. So I can just be myself, no problem. And then when I actually blew up online and saw that people actually enjoyed this persona, which is really not a persona. It is who I am at the end of the day. But they enjoyed the real me online. And I thought that was really cool that people appreciated that because I knew I was going to be different than the other beauty influencers, as I said. Speaker 1 (8:42) I love hearing that. And I love seeing your success because to me, it's so affirming and reassuring to anyone out there. Because you hear this advice, right? Be yourself. And it always sounds cheesy and cringy and a bit awkward and whatever. But actually, then you see people do it and you go, oh, people actually want that authenticity. That people actually really gravitate towards someone like yourself who's putting their genuine self out there. Speaker 2 (9:06) And Speaker 1 (9:07) there's all these people, millions and millions of people who are like... Oh, Michaela, we just want you to be yourself. Like, we love the way you are. Like, that must feel so great. And at the same time, it elicits a reaction. But we'll get into that. I wanted to ask you, talk to me about where your love for makeup came from. Like you said, you grew up in this artistic home. Oh, yeah. In this visual home. Your mom sewing your clothes for you. What leads to you being fascinated with makeup? Speaker 3 (9:30) Because I grew up in this very creative family. I'm looking at my father, who's the most... historically smart person I've ever met. He collects antiques. He has an amazing collection. He's very artsy in that way. Then you have my mom painting these beautiful paintings, taking gorgeous photography. You have my brother who's doing video game drawings and really good at art. And then there was me. And I'm like, I have to be good at something. I have to be good at something. And my mom saw that in me right away because I was so open to being like her with the creativity and everything. So she handed me an Avon catalog. And I'm like literally eight years old. Hands me an Avon catalog. And if you don't know what Avon is, it's this bag. I Speaker 1 (10:10) do. Speaker 3 (10:10) My mom used to do Avon. Okay. Speaker 1 (10:11) Yeah. It's a magazine. You Speaker 3 (10:12) circle products and you can order them. We don't really do that anymore. But I said, okay. And I took a Sharpie and I'm circling page after page of products, not knowing anything about makeup. I knew nothing about makeup. I didn't know what anything was, but my mom thought I would be into it. So she ordered me a bunch of Avon products. And the minute I picked them up, I never put them down. Because I learned about makeup, I began going on YouTube. I think for a lot of people who were into makeup, YouTube, beauty YouTube specifically, was a major place to learn everything you could about beauty. And I became obsessed. I became absolutely obsessed with all of the biggest beauty creators you can think of. I'm going home after school and the first thing I'm doing is throwing my backpack down and making sure I'm checking what these beauty creators have posted. I became so, so addicted to it in the best way. It became my saving grace. I mean, anyone who goes through high school knows it's a challenging time for a lot of people, myself included. And I find that makeup was like that peace for me. It was that place where I felt really peaceful. But yeah, once I picked it up, I did not put it down. And people told me, you're going to grow out of this. You're going to grow out of this. And I always said, I'm going to go into a career in beauty. And they're like, you're going to be a makeup artist? Maybe, but it could be something else. I just knew I wanted to be in beauty. But I also knew I wanted to make a bigger impact than just being a makeup artist. I know that being a makeup artist is a really special job, but I wanted to do something even bigger because I just think that way. I think really big all the time. How did you get that bug of thinking Speaker 1 (11:45) big? Speaker 3 (11:46) Well, both of my parents own businesses. So when you grow up in a household like that where you have parents who are hustling, my work ethic is just crazy. And I was like that in school, too. I was a grinder in school. I was that kid who would, I would get up at 4 a.m. do a full beat so I could make my 6 a.m. bus every single day. I wouldn't miss breakfast either. And then I would love going to school. I love learning. I loved education so much. When I went to college, it was the best four years of my life. I loved college so much. I just really loved school. So my parents put that work ethic in me and then going to school and seeing what you can truly accomplish with your life. I've just always been so... open to massive success and not afraid of it. Speaker 1 (12:31) And everyone who's listening and watching, this is a Sunday. Me and Michaela are here on a Sunday just to prove that that work ethic is still there. Like we were talking about your schedule here. You've been in LA for a week. You're here for a few more days and you've been going back to back to back. You have a shoot after this. Like that work ethic is something that's still sustaining even today after all this success and after all this, you know, all the mega achievements you've had. Talk to me about the feeling that you have around You said you were 14 when you started your YouTube channel? Yeah, around between Speaker 3 (13:01) 12 and 14. Speaker 1 (13:02) Do you remember the first thing you ever posted? Speaker 3 (13:05) Oh, yeah. What was it? So it was a full makeup routine where in the video I'm using all of the Avon products I said, where I have my little Avon quad and there was no audio. It was just, I put music over because I was too scared to talk on camera. It was my first video. And it was just a video of me doing makeup, no talking, just kind of showing people how I do my routine. The lighting was horrible. I did film it on a camera, though, for my first YouTube video. I asked for Christmas for a Canon camera, and my mom got it for me because she knew I wanted to do YouTube. And that was my first video on the camera. And I was so excited to do it. And I had to learn how to edit. at such a young age. So I'm downloading all these editing softwares and just trying to figure it out. How Speaker 1 (13:49) many views did it get? Oh God, probably Speaker 3 (13:51) a hundred, maybe. You know, I sent it to all my family and friends, but that was it. And Speaker 1 (13:56) how long did you keep that up for? Oh, Speaker 3 (13:58) years. I kept it up most of high Speaker 1 (13:59) school. Speaker 3 (13:59) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:00) Wow. And like you said, there were friends at school or other people telling you, you're going to outgrow this. This isn't your thing. This isn't going to work out. What would you say to someone who's young, has a dream? is building towards it, wants to start something, but they're hearing a lot of the criticism, hate, complaints, naysayers. What would you say to that person? Speaker 3 (14:20) Well, I think there's different types of dreams, right? And some of these dreams that we have are considered outrageous. So when I was in high school, I was in a program called DECA. It's a business competition. And I actually entered this competition when I was 16. And I wrote a 50-page business plan. on how I could be successful as an influencer, knowing, having no idea that this would be my life now. And I remember I presented this presentation in front of judges and they're like, huh? Because this, when I'm 16, this is 10 years ago. So influencing was a thing, but it wasn't like a huge thing. And the judges were definitely like, no way. But I won, by the way. I think I was just very convincing about I can make a business out of this. So after I did that business competition, people at school kind of saw that I was serious about this. I was legit. I want to be a beauty influencer. I knew that 10 years ago that I wanted to be a beauty influencer. And I would tell everybody, I would tell all my teachers, all my friends, everyone at school, and absolutely everyone said that's not going to happen. Speaker 2 (15:30) That's Speaker 3 (15:31) not going to happen. And I think it does come down to the fact that when I grew up in a very small town where a lot of people stay there and it's just very quaint and even the idea of going to New York City or L.A. is scary to a lot of people, including myself. The idea of growth, I think, when you come from a small town can be really scary. So even I experienced that, too. Speaker 1 (15:51) Who did you look up to at the time that was doing this that made you feel you could do it? Or was it just self? Speaker 3 (15:57) I was looking up to every single beauty influencer. Everyone you can think of, James Charles, Jeffree Star, Nikkie Tutorials, Tati Westbrook, Jaclyn Hill, Manny MUA, Patrick Star. I was watching every single one. And I learned a lot of what I do in my videos from them. Speaker 1 (16:12) And you're right that 10 years ago, people didn't know this could be a real thing. It's evolved so fast. I uploaded my first video 10 years ago. Yeah. Speaker 3 (16:22) And what platform was that on? Speaker 1 (16:23) It was originally on YouTube. And then on Facebook, which is where my content took off in the early days, and then YouTube and then Instagram came later. And then, of course, TikTok and everything else. It's fascinating looking back because I remember being at the award shows, streamies and shorties and all these things in the early days. It's so different to what it is today. Oh, yeah. It's absolutely changed. Like now it's like a real career path. And everyone has a plan. When we all started, I didn't know where it was going. And so it's pretty unbelievable to see it. When you go back to your hometown now that you grew up in, what does that feel like for you? Speaker 3 (16:59) Well, I actually just went back to my hometown to go to my high school. I donated a ton of makeup to my high school. And it was so interesting just walking through the halls and seeing where I grew up. My hometown is a place I hold close because it's where I really discovered that I could be different. So I love going back to my hometown. It's really special. Speaker 1 (17:18) What was it like walking through those corridors and almost going back in time? Speaker 3 (17:23) Spooky. I mean, it's a little bit eerie like walking through and because your whole life during that time flashes before you, like all those years in high school, all those years where maybe you didn't believe in yourself or you were unsure. You know, you don't know where you're going to end up when you're in high school. You just don't. And when you walk and get your diploma, you don't know what happens after that. And I think a lot of people, including myself, were terrified after that. But obviously really excited, too. But there's also the fear. What Speaker 1 (17:50) did it feel like to donate all that makeup? Oh, my God. How cool, right? They had all the Speaker 3 (17:54) girls come into the cafeteria. And just I donated so much, like 20 huge bags. All of POV. Speaker 1 (18:03) I Speaker 2 (18:03) definitely threw in a lot of POV and Speaker 3 (18:05) the girls just went crazy and filled up little goodie bags. So it was cool because I just know there's that one girl at the school and maybe more now, who knows, who's doing makeup like I did and has a similar dream. There's got to be at least one. Speaker 1 (18:20) Talk to me about how you got your job at Ulta. Speaker 3 (18:23) Oh, gosh. Okay. So when I turned 16, I knew I needed a job in beauty. I want my life to be in beauty. I have to work in beauty. So I'm applying to everything you can think of. JCPenney Beauty, Nordstrom Beauty, Sephora, Ulta, everywhere that sold makeup, I'm applying. Now, because I lived in a small town, I lived nowhere near any of these places, by the way. But I happened to live 10 minutes from an Ulta. And I applied. I didn't hear anything for a really long time, years. So backtracking a little bit. When I went to college, I decided for a brief period of time that I was going to give up makeup. Because I didn't see a life where... I was going to be successful in this. It was a moment of giving up. And I think we all have those moments. We all have those moments where we give up maybe just for a little bit. It doesn't mean forever. So there was a brief moment where I gave up. And I ended up deleting my YouTube channel, deleting my beauty blog, deleted my beauty pages. I deleted everything and I gave up. And then a few years into college, I'm a senior and it's time to start thinking about jobs. So I'm getting my degree in communication, media, marketing, and I have to think about getting a job. And in my head, I thought, oh my gosh, if I don't work in beauty, I'm going to be miserable. So that's when I decided, okay, I'm going to apply to Ulta again and just see what happens. I applied, got the phone call a week later. I went to this interview with a full bead on. I had purple eyeshadow on. I did a purple cut crease. I'll never forget. I wanted to show that I could do makeup. So I did my best work that day. And I went into this interview and I basically just was really honest with the manager. I said, I need this job. It was not in the sense that I need the money. I need this job. Because beauty is my life, and I'm going to feel so empty if I don't work in beauty. And I really need this chance. Obviously, I did all the other traditional interview questions. But at the end of the interview, she was like, I actually applied for a cashier position. And this was, wow, I'm already getting emotional talking about this, because this was the first time Speaker 2 (20:35) someone believed in me. Speaker 2 (20:53) You'll never forget the first time someone believes in Speaker 3 (20:55) you. Speaker 2 (21:02) My ultimate manager. looked at me and she said, I actually don't want you to be a cashier. I want you to be Speaker 3 (21:09) a makeup artist on the floor. And mind you, I had no makeup experience except for the makeup I do on myself. Speaker 2 (21:17) And I thought, oh my gosh, this is it. This is someone seeing something in me. Speaker 3 (21:25) And my first day was Speaker 2 (21:27) the best Speaker 3 (21:28) day ever. You know, they handed me my brush belt, gave me brushes, my Ulta name tag, and I was just so happy. I was so happy. And I loved working there. It was everything. I learned everything you can imagine about beauty working there. And that to me was a turning point in me thinking about my future. And I knew that beauty, that I did have a place in beauty. Speaker 1 (21:55) I love how emotional you just got about the idea of someone believing in you. Yeah. Especially in your dream. And I imagine your parents believed in you. Speaker 3 (22:04) Yeah. I mean, I Speaker 1 (22:05) think Speaker 3 (22:05) for parents, a lot of the times they want the best for you. Right. And when I go to my parents and say, I want to be a beauty influencer, it's like, OK. Speaker 1 (22:13) Oh, interesting. OK. Yeah. So despite them being entrepreneurs and creative and everything. Speaker 2 (22:20) I Speaker 3 (22:21) think they were scared. They were they knew they wanted me to work Speaker 2 (22:25) in beauty. Speaker 3 (22:26) But that concept of being an influencer, being a creator on the Internet, what is that? Because my parents, I have older parents, so my parents are in their 70s. So they didn't grow up with any of that. They don't know anything about that. My dad doesn't even know how to use a phone. So they were skeptical, not skeptical that I would make something of myself. They really are always proud of me and believe in me in every way you can think of. But it was more so the, oh, you want to do this on the Internet. that was a question for them which i think it would be for any parent transparently yeah yeah Speaker 1 (22:59) absolutely absolutely so yeah you get this moment of wow someone who works in this industry yeah at alter has this positive emotion towards you and recognizes that you shouldn't just be a cashier you could yeah Speaker 3 (23:14) Actually be on the floor doing makeup. I hope she sees this. What's her name? Do you remember? Speaker 1 (23:17) Her name was Lindsay, yeah. Oh, you remember her name? I hope she sees Speaker 3 (23:20) this. Do Speaker 1 (23:20) you remember what she looks like? Oh, yeah. Short Speaker 3 (23:22) haircut, glasses, beautiful. Lindsay, big shout out. That's awesome. Have you ever met her again? I saw her a few years later. She was a manager at a different store. Yeah, I saw her. Speaker 1 (23:34) But not since all of this. No, Speaker 3 (23:35) no. But that would be cool. That would be cool. I would be open to that. Imagine we had Lindsay in the back right now. I was like, guys, bring Lindsay out. Oh, man, we should Speaker 1 (23:42) have Speaker 3 (23:42) done that. Speaker 1 (23:43) Oh, that's awesome. I really hope she does see this. Yeah. Because I can see what impact she's had Speaker 3 (23:47) on you. Speaker 1 (23:47) Yeah, she Speaker 3 (23:47) has had a big impact on me. Speaker 1 (23:48) It's incredible, isn't it? People like that who didn't realize. They didn't even know what they were doing for you. Speaker 3 (23:55) Yeah. Speaker 1 (23:55) They were just doing it. I think about those people sometimes, the people that opened doors or gave someone an opportunity. They're not the ones who... are well known or, you know, whatever it may be, but everyone has someone like that in their life or a few people like that. Yeah. You never Speaker 3 (24:09) know who's walking through the door. Speaker 1 (24:11) Yeah. That's pretty remarkable. So where you get this job at Alter and actually I want to, I want to track back a little bit to the point you talked about giving up. Yeah. Because I find that really fascinating because up until now, I'm hearing your confidence. I'm hearing you believe in yourself. You're like posting a blog at 14. You've got YouTube. Like these are like, just to be really clear, that is early days to do that. Now people are doing it because you can see where it goes. You're doing it at a time when it's still pretty new and fresh. So those are not small things. Talk to me about what had to happen for you to get to a point to say, I might have to give up on this dream. I don't think it's happening. When Speaker 3 (24:47) I went to a business college and as I was going through school. And seeing just people getting these opportunities in finance and accounting and all of these big jobs that are going to take them like really far. And I was getting a communication degree and I was thinking about working in TV or radio or something like that. And then I interned in radio and I liked it. I liked it a lot. But there was something still missing. And it just, nothing ever fit. And I felt really confused when I was a senior in college. And like I said, I gave up. I went to a college that was, again, pretty conservative. No one's wearing makeup. There was actually a girl, her name is Dana, Dana Rose. She's a beauty influencer now, fun fact. And we're friends. But she was a year above me at the school. And she was an athlete at the school. And she would walk around campus with a full beat to go to practice. And she had this gorgeous makeup and I always admired her. And I wondered what she was going to do with her life because she was going to a business college. And then I saw on Instagram that she began a lash business. And I thought, wow, she went to college to get this degree and now she wants to have a lash business. So clearly there's some correlation between business and beauty. Clearly there is something here. So I decided to create an Instagram account and I began posting just makeup stuff, just makeup hauls, makeup pictures of my eyeshadow because I did really cool eyeshadow. And Ardell Lashes is a company. It's a lash company. They reposted one of my pictures and just that simple repost. OK, they liked the makeup enough to repost it. That's kind of cool. And then I began tagging brands, tagging brands in photos and doing more like product stuff and showing people what products I use. And then I noticed brands were paying attention. So if I show a CoverGirl foundation, CoverGirl may like the photo. And I'm thinking, wow, this is really, really interesting. If I really put in the work here, maybe this could be my future. Like I had this hint of a maybe. Speaker 3 (27:07) So that's when I kind of said, all right, I'm going to try this again. Speaker 1 (27:11) Well, yeah, it's, I'm sure you sometimes look back and go, gosh, if I didn't pull through. Speaker 3 (27:17) Oh my gosh. You must have those sliding doors moments. I think about that all the time because I did have a job offer after college and it was going to be to work in an HR department at a bank. Imagine that. Imagine me working in the HR department at a bank. You'd be amazing at it, I imagine. I would be great at it, but. I think I would have been really miserable in the job, honestly, just from a creativity perspective. When you're someone who's really creative, if you're not constantly activating that, it's tough. Speaker 1 (27:49) Yeah, I can relate to that. I spent