Lucy Kalanithi: What Loss Can Teach Us About Living (The Perspective Shift That Changes Everything)

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Lucy Kalanathie reflects on grieving her late husband Paul, a neurosurgeon, 10 years after his death. She shares how loss reshaped her understanding of life, meaning, and connection.

Key takeaways

• Grief evolves but never disappears

Transcript preview

This is a I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human. 10 years after losing her husband, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade. He ultimately got the news that he had a chest x-ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like dense with tumors. We both knew what it meant. I never thought I was going to feel okay. It was like, Paul died and I was like, it's all over. What did being so close to death, teach you about life and life and living? There's two big questions. What would be left undone and how can I live most fully in the time I have left? Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is Dr. Lucy Kalanathie. 10 years after losing her husband, best-selling author, a neurosurgeon Paul Kalanati, Lucy joins me to explore what grief looks like after a decade. revolves after loss and what being so close to death can teach us about being fully alive. Lucy Kalanathie, welcome to on purpose. Thanks for having me. I have waited for this conversation since I've read the book and when breath becomes there and I've read it when I still lived in New York when I moved to the States and it moved me so much because I hadn't really come across a book like that. that felt like it was written at such a powerful moment and such a pivotal moment in someone's life. And then to have your reflections within it as well, it's kind of left an imprint on me. And then my team and I was sitting down and we're thinking about books that had an impact on us as a team. And this came to mind immediately. And so I can't tell you how grateful I am for your time and energy for the trip over here. I know you've travelled here, especially to be with us in LA. And just want to just want to start. by saying thank you. Thank you so much. Tell me what does it feel like remembering Paul 10 years on? I used to think life was like a mountain that you climb like I'll follow the path and then I'll get where I'm going and now like having lost Paul having taken our daughter from being a baby to now being a seventh grader I think of life much more as like a series of moments. In a way it's like that my marriage and Paul's illness and even medical school right, right. all mixed together, medical school residency, being married, losing him. That was like a chapter and now I'm in such a different chapter. It's actually kind of amazing for the opportunity to like dip back in like to get sort of like talking about Paul in a way that's really embodied because you're also experiencing him and we're talking about him in like in a real way. And at the same time he's like sprinkled through my life all over the place. Like you know I'll go through like a breakup and think like what would Paul, what would you know in the situation to me to him and also just like what would Paul think of Katie she's so different she's such a like singular specific person not a baby you know so I guess like the things I can say about it are like 10 years on you know I never thought I was gonna feel okay it was like Paul died and I was like it's all over who am I what happened like it's me and I'm here and I have this baby but I'm so lonely how is this ever going to said like things will fill in it'll become okay and I was like I literally don't believe you but it's like things do like things become okay and then at the same time like even after you lose someone like they don't even remain static even though they're gone like you're not static you continue to learn new things about them you know with Paul I hear from Paul's readers about his book and that's sort of like an ongoing relationship with him through other people anyway I guess it's all just like a beautiful mix. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything you understand differently about Paul? Yeah, I mean like the thing that makes me feel like when it burst into tears is actually a thing I don't yet understand, which is, you know, Paul, he was a doctor, he was a young neurosurgeon, really interested in meaning and mortality, like thought he would become a professor of philosophy or a writer and then sort of surprised himself by going into medicine and was incredibly intoxicated by neurosurgery because the brain is just an organ in our body, like our liver, like our heart, but then it's also the seat of identity. And he was so interested in, okay, if you're undergoing like brain trauma, a stroke, you know, a tumor, how does that alter your identity and meaning, but also how does like neurosurgery alter your sense of identity? He was really interested in patients who are facing like upheaval's in meaning and identity. Then he himself became sick, had to face this whole upheaval, this whole upheaval. had to face the end of his life. And I felt like as Paul was going through this serious illness and dying, I really felt immediately in it with him. I felt so fused with him. We had to do so many things together to take care of him, to make sure the book got written, to cope, to like show up for each other in like every way. But I wonder whether, like, when and if something happens to me, and I'm sick and dying if I'll read Paul's book and see how much I didn't understand and see like new things in the words or like reflect on his experience and think like how was he alone in that and so like that sort of breaks my heart like what did I miss you know an answer to your question of like how have I gotten to know Paul differently yeah I mean when someone dies like stories come rushing in and then I think reading his book at different phases of my own life I even things even though I knew him so well. And then I think, you know, just the process, there's a flip side which is like how to not flatten someone after they die. Like I think like when someone dies, they're sort of suddenly they become like so amazing and perfect and I can't believe we lost this person and all those things are true. But at the same time, it's like he like, you know, left his socks on the floor and it annoyed me. You know, just he was just a regular person and he was funny and he was funny and he was funny and he was funny and he was funny and he was funny and he was funny and he drank and he was like textured you know and so I often think about like all the things I do remember about him how do I keep those like in memory and keep him like complicated instead of like mythic both of those answers to what you said you almost feel like you don't understand which maybe you never will until we're all in the same position and going through something similar and when we're facing not lost through someone else but loss of ourselves there may be certain things that we miss on that journey and we don't recognize and maybe we shouldn't until that's on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But then on the flip side the idea that you're saying that it's almost like sometimes we don't celebrate people until they're gone. Sure. We only see all the bad things. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And then as you're saying on the flip side when someone goes we only see the good things and we don't. And it's so fascinating how the mind does that, right. Right. And it's so fascinating how the mind does that. Right. Right. Right. as a neurosurting, like you know why we do that. Yeah, yeah, good question. Yeah, and where that comes from, like, why is it that we kind of... Right, like what's the neuroscience of grief? The neuroscience of that grief of how we block people's good things when they're alive and block people's, you know, bad things when they're gone. And, right, or is it about remembering? Like, remember to, you know, remember to, you hear the age old phrase, time heals or wounds, How does that sit with you? I mean it's sort of like simplistic and it actually makes it sound like the wounds will then go away. And so I don't believe that part, but I do believe. I do think time heals all wounds in a certain way. Prince Harry was writing about grief and he said something like grief is a wound that festers. I was sort of like, oh, I don't agree with that because if something festers, it's like untended, right? And so I do think like there will always be a scar. There will always be something that different, something you're carrying, something you're literally carrying on your body, like that's also how grief feels. I think if you can sort of think to yourself like it's going to be okay in some way, you just don't know what okay means and like sort of let the pain move through you, you will end up somewhere, you know, that's different and better than you thought. Yeah, it's interesting how all these statements have stood the test of time, but they have so much new once when you're actually living them. Yeah, yeah, and some of them don't work, right? Like, or you have to decide which ones work for you, like if someone sends you a card with something on it or if someone says, you know, everything happens for a reason and you don't believe that, it's not helpful. But you're right, I think many of those like things in literature, things like that, hold up. What do you feel about that one, everything happens for a reason? I don't subscribe to that necessarily, but I think more than I think more than I did before, things happen, I do believe something beautiful will come out of it. Something. Even if the only thing that comes out of it is that you suffered, which connects you to every human being everywhere across time ever. And then potentially deepens your empathy for other people or deepens your ability to be a friend or you know, whatever it might be. So, and then I think like suffering, have you read man search for meaning? Yeah, of course. Yeah, no, no, no, no, I love it. You're saying, yeah, I'm not surprised you read it, that's why I say. And like, Victor Frankel, who, you know, survived the Holocaust in a concentration camp and then went on to become a therapist afterward, he talks about witnessing all of these people and how they survived the unservivable. And he ends up talking about like how purpose or relationships, like, you wouldn't survive just because you had those, but you could only survive, but you could only survive, had something you were waiting for or someone who was waiting for you on the other side. And ultimately he ends up talking about how suffering is actually a really meaningful part of our lives. He says like his construction is that meaning comes from three things and he says he conceives of work and love and suffering and I love that. He says work is like the things you do and create, you know, like the imprint you leave on the world maybe. Love is like all the types of love between people. people and then gratitude also and just like love writ large and then suffering he talks about how like suffering is not this sort of like side event that you wish would go away it is here it will be here whether something beautiful comes out of it whether it connects you to other people or whether just like the pure achievement of just persisting alone I think there is like actual meaning in that and so I think the idea of like everything happens for a reason it's like everything a reason will be found, but only you can find it. No one can tell you what it is. And no one can tell you that it's okay. Like that's only yours and maybe it takes years. I appreciate that and the idea that there wasn't some predetermined reason or some reason that had to be the way. It was a journey of discovery. Yeah, and I think some people think that and that's also like a beautiful story or a beautiful, you know. What for you was actually helpful, as you just talked about the need, the need for meaning. What was useful to hear from your relationships at the time? Yeah. And what do you find useful now? Yeah. And helpful. This isn't about other people actually, but this was a really helpful thing for me is. So Paul got sick and we were both doctors and there was something in that that was immensely helpful. And obviously like the privilege and logistics and all of that kind of stuff that came out of like being a health care person. and a doctor was very helpful, but the thing that was the most helpful was having spent years and years taking care of sick people and their families and thinking like terrible things can happen to wonderful people whether it's like a car crash or sudden diagnosis of cancer and so when he was diagnosed like at one point I was like whatever you need to do to cope go for it like would you like to punch a wall we have all these walls like they're all yours and he was like I don't need to I don't need to either. Like what's that about and I think it was kind of like okay turns out like it's our turn to like be the people who are doing this. So it was really helpful to sort of like have that perspective and Paul in his writing wrote you know like people often ask don't you ask why me and he said well why not me do you think is really beautiful and in terms of like what was helpful for us in terms of coping I felt like the most important thing just to feel witnessed. I actually didn't need anyone to try to fix it, to try to like say something that was gonna fix it or that it was okay. Like one of the best condolence cards I got after Paul died was it just said this sucks really big and I was like oh so amazing and it also wasn't like too flowery or too like perfect or whatever it was just like this is how it's first and feel, this is definitely how I feel. Also it's still funny. Like even when you're dying you're still you're still you're still you're still you're dying, you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still you're still funny. Like one thing that did that was really helpful for Paul actually when he was sick, you know, he was a 36 and 37 year old neurosurgeon, right? So he's used to being like, like healthy, dominant in charge in control and then like loses all of that in an instant. So when people would come to visit and hang out they'd say like, okay I'm coming to visit like what can I do that's helpful? And I was like, just come and hang out and like be, just like be you, be funny, like ask Paul for career advice, you know, if that's what you would do anyway, like just because he's dying, like doesn't mean he doesn't want to know what's going on with you, he's not like radioactive, he's not different, you know, I think illness can be so flattening, it's like people get sick and it's like humor zips out of the room, like sexuality zips out of the room and you're just like I'm still the room and you're just like I'm still the same and you're just like, I'm still like, for people's full self and people to be like a gente and be, if that's a word, be an agent and like be a full person. I think we all lose our powers when we love someone and they lose someone. Totally. I think for a lot of people listening and watching I think a lot of people become distant. Totally because you don't really know what to do, yeah and I think like showing up is half the thing. And then also it's like, I do think there's something to like being specific, you know like people often say like, let me, let me, let me, let me know, let me know, let me know, let me know, let me know, let me know, let me know if there's mean it's and I've done that but I think when you're the sick person it's like you are quite overwhelmed and so it is useful to just like keep offering a little thing with no pressure like I had some friends whose baby was in the hospital and the husband was like the best thing anyone ever did for us was say like I'm at the mall next door getting a burger like what do you want on yours I'll drop it off in 20 and they were just like the works thanks and then like they didn't talk to talk to the first and like you just like you know like do you need babysitting this week like let me know yeah like I'm dropping off food do you want me to ring the doorbell or just let you know just text you when it's there just like something that has no pressure but also is like present and keep doing it what do you think most people misinterpret about grief one thing is like oh if I say something I'm gonna remind her or if I say it what if I say something I make her sad and I think when you're a grieving person you're thinking about it you're thinking about it all is present for you all the time and so I think if somebody says like hey I heard what happened I've been thinking about you you know hey I heard what happened like how are you doing today is there anything you can do it doesn't remind you it just makes you feel seen and connected at a time when like it's really hard to feel connected my mom said this amazing thing when we were growing up she used to say when in doubt describe and it basically meant like even if you don't know what's happening for you Or even if you don't know the perfect thing to say, like you can just describe what's going on. So you can just say like, I heard that so and so died. It's really sad I've been thinking about you so much. I wish I knew the perfect thing to say and I don't, but I want you to know I love you. And like that, doesn't that sound so cozy and nice? And it's like they didn't have to say a special perfect, describing what you're going through is sometimes better than trying to say the perfect thing or the right thing yeah absolutely to just be like this is the worst day ever yeah this is hard yeah this is hard yeah this is really difficult is so much more I don't know there's something about it that opens up the heart rather than closes it totally yeah just it's almost acceptance yes yeah can