A Succulent Crime with Kelsey McKinney

Normal Gossip

Hosts Rachel Hampton and Kelsey McKinney conclude Season 10 of Normal Gossip by discussing the business model of Defector Media and their su

Key takeaways

• Defector Media is a small, collectively owned company of 20-something employees where subscription revenue goes directly to owners.
• Tori, a clinic receptionist, uses a sound bowl to perform 'sound baths' for office plants to increase vibrational energy.

Main topics

• Defector Media business model
• Workplace office politics

Notable quotes

I refuse to be a team of one.

Conclusion

The episode highlights how much personality-driven drama can influence

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Hey there, it's Robin from PRX. I'm excited to tell you about Lightbox, the newest show in the Radiotopia family. Mark Henry Phillips spent 20 years composing music for a living. Then one night, he typed a few words into an AI music generator, and it did his job better, way better, in just 10 seconds, basically for free. In Lightbox, Mark investigates what AI is doing to music and the people who make it. Over nine months and with more than 40 interviews, he talked to CEOs building these tools, Grammy award-winning producers secretly using them, and legendary musicians trying to stop them. From PRX's Radiotopia, Lightbox. It's not just a story about music. It's about what we lose when machines start doing the things we thought made us human. Out now wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 2 (0:55) Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. What? Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh wow. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. What? Oh my gosh. What? Speaker 3 (1:04) Hello and welcome to the finale of season 10 of Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Season 10 has been a special one in so many ways. We brought you more episodes in one season than we ever have before and more than we ever will again. Let's be honest. If I'm being completely honest, 12 was too much. It was too many. You're welcome. We plumbed the depths of our inbox to bring you the most chaotic gossip possible all season long. And this season, we did all stars. We introduced you to some new friends, but we also brought back more of our favorite partners in gossip than we ever have before. And I'm sure you all agree, there's only one right way to close out our all-star season. Please welcome Dowager Queen Kelsey McKinney back to the show. In addition to being the co-creator and former host of Normal Gossip, Kelsey is one of my colleagues and co-owners here at Defector.com. She has also written two wonderful books, a novel called God Spare the Girls and a New York Times bestselling book about gossip called You Didn't Hear This From Me. Speaker 2 (2:13) Kelsey, hello. Thank you so much for joining me. Hello, Rachel. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. This Speaker 3 (2:21) is the crossover everyone's been waiting for. Oh my God, they're Speaker 2 (2:24) clamoring. Thank God I could make it. They said, where has Kelsey been? Everyone's been weeping and weeping, coming up to me on the street with tears in their eyes. It's so sad. Speaker 3 (2:35) And now here you are. Here I am. Thank you so much. In the flesh, even. In the flesh. Speaker 2 (2:39) Not just a floating voice. I know. First time on camera. First time on camera, ever. Guys, you're welcome. I did this for you. Speaker 3 (2:48) Wow. Well, actually, I do have ulterior motives for bringing you on. Uh-oh. Which is you are the only other person who has hosted this show. True. You are the only other person who understands all that comes along with this. Okay. Speaker 2 (3:02) Sure. And so I wanted to talk to you about something that has been causing Speaker 3 (3:07) a little bit of, let's say, drama. Just Speaker 2 (3:09) a tiny bit. Speaker 1 (3:10) No, I would never do Speaker 3 (3:12) that on camera. Speaker 2 (3:13) But, you know. One of the many platforms that the show is hosted on is Spotify. Famously a platform that exists. Speaker 3 (3:20) And Spotify has added a feature where if you have subscriber episodes, Speaker 2 (3:24) which we do, Speaker 3 (3:25) you Speaker 2 (3:26) can put them in the feed. Okay, so it's like easier or something for people to listen to them? Speaker 3 (3:31) It's easier for people to figure out that we have extra episodes that you Speaker 2 (3:35) can pay $5 a month for. Okay, I'm not understanding what the problem is. Speaker 3 (3:38) You know, I also didn't think there was going to be much of a problem. But based on when this feature was rolled out and which was in between seasons and some of the comments we've gotten, I think in a world where it feels like everyone's putting something behind a paywall, I wanted to talk a little bit about subscriber episodes, what a subscription does for us specifically as like co-owners of the company that we work at. Because... This show has always been free to listen to, and I can't imagine a future in which it won't be. Speaker 2 (4:11) May I speak first? Yes. We don't control Spotify. If we did, we would have so much more money. Like, we would be so rich. We would not be wearing this. You would never see us again. But we don't. We've had a subscriber feed, I think, since after the first season of the show. What is that? Four years ago at this point? It's like 50 episodes at least of... subscriber content. We Speaker 3 (4:35) have issues with Spotify, but it has led to more people discovering that we have this, which I feel like we do have it. We do have it. You get an extra episode a month, whether or not the season is running or not. But I think something I wanted to talk about specifically is that there are obviously ads on the show, which is how we make the money. So true. But ad revenue doesn't just come to me or it didn't just come to you, Kelsey. It's split among like. four to five different entities. There's so many people involved. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:05) Crazy. Speaker 3 (5:05) It's our agents. It's Radiotopia. It's Defector Media. It's our contractors who make our videos, who make our show. So ad revenue is a big pot that we're all kind of drawing out of. Yeah. Subscription revenue, which is the five dollars you pay to get an extra episode a month along with other bonus content, that comes directly to us. Speaker 2 (5:30) Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:31) As co-owners of Defector. Speaker 2 (5:33) We're not the New York Times. We're a small company. There's 27 of us. And the reason we introduced the subscription product in the first. place was that we wanted to make normal gossip more integrated with the rest of defector than it was before. So instead of having this kind of like island of normal gossip people, we wanted to make sure that like you as the listeners of normal gossip knew that we were a part of defector and also that there's other content you get. So yes, as a subscriber, you get for $5 a month, one extra episode. But you also get articles. You also get a newsletter that has like lots of links in it and fun extra content. And like, you don't have to want that. We're not like begging you to subscribe, but it is the way that we see the future of this show being more integrated with the company that we own and love. Speaker 3 (6:20) Yeah. So I just wanted to talk about that a little bit on the main pod for a little bit, because I feel like we most often talk about defector and subscribers and stuff. on the subscriber episodes Speaker 2 (6:32) because if you subscribed it suggests you're interested in Speaker 3 (6:36) learning the behind the scenes but I guess as things become less clear in terms of where money is going for creators that you want to support I wanted to be pretty open about that because I was kind of confused about the discussion but I realized if you're from the outside looking in It's not clear at all where Speaker 2 (6:55) any of this money is going. Yeah. Yeah. You're just Speaker 3 (6:57) like, OK, well, there are ads. So you're making money, which is true. But you also have this thing that I could pay five dollars for. Why do I need to do that? And the answer is you don't need to. But if you do want normal gossip once a month, no matter whether or not we're producing the show, that's something you can have. Yeah. Speaker 2 (7:14) Also, as a side note. There are a lot of things that we cannot talk about incredibly explicitly on a public feed that everyone has access to. For example, if we want to talk about like actual celebrity gossip or if we want to pan something, we usually do that on the subscriber feed. And so it's like, yes, it's paywalled. Part of the reason it's paywalled is because that's our safe space. It's true. We're talking shit in there. Speaker 3 (7:40) And we are. We do be talking shit. We have so many people come on and talk shit with us. We have y'all submit gossip morsels, which are literal, basically not super anonymized bits of gossip that we have people come on and react to. So, Speaker 2 (7:58) I Speaker 3 (7:59) mean, obviously I make it. I would love if you paid for it, but I think it's a good subscription product if you like normal gossip and you get access to early information about like tours and stuff. But also. You can tell us what you might like in a subscription product. We're always. So true. Trying Speaker 2 (8:15) to make it better. That's the best part about owning our company is that we can be like, Speaker 3 (8:18) oh, the listeners want to see more of our Slack transcriptions Speaker 2 (8:22) where we're talking shit about a celebrity. Yeah. It's like, oh, here you go. Speaker 3 (8:26) Here you go. That's an option. Speaker 2 (8:27) You know, also one time we drank a whole bottle of wine and talked about an erotic book. And so there's all sorts of stuff going on. And we did. And we did. So, Speaker 3 (8:36) you know, subscribe Speaker 2 (8:37) if you want. Literally like and subscribe. Literally Speaker 3 (8:41) like Speaker 2 (8:41) and subscribe. Speaker 3 (8:42) But Speaker 2 (8:42) also normal Speaker 3 (8:44) in-season, normal gossip will remain non-paywalled. Speaker 2 (8:48) Free, as they Speaker 3 (8:49) say. Thanks for listening. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program. I've got some gossip for you. Are you ready? I'm so ready. Speaker 3 (9:08) I have a very serious question for you. Oh, Lord. And I want you to answer with Speaker 2 (9:12) complete Speaker 3 (9:12) honesty. Speaker 2 (9:13) Okay. Are you a plant person? I would love to be a plant person in that I think plants look nice. But despite being insane, a Virgo, very well organized, design forward, I cannot keep a plant alive to save my life. And it's because I forget about them. Speaker 1 (9:37) And the problem is plants don't have like it's not consistent enough for me. Speaker 2 (9:42) Like if it's like water it every day, I would do well. But it's not water it every day. It's water it like every four days. And I'm like, I can't be putting that into my Google calendar. There's already too much on there. And so then what I do is I just dump whatever is left in my water into the plant. And guess what? That doesn't work. Speaker 1 (9:59) So the plants I have out my outside plants do well because the Speaker 2 (10:03) sky waters them. Yes. But my inside plants, they are dead. Which you've seen. You've been to my house and seen my like three dead plants. I didn't notice them among your many treasures. You were distracted by my treasures. You couldn't see them. I was like gadgets and gizmos a penny. Literally. Pulling a fork out of my shelf. Speaker 3 (10:23) I was like, I Speaker 2 (10:25) want to be where the people are. Speaker 3 (10:29) I feel like I actually didn't know this about you, but it doesn't surprise me either. I feel like. Speaker 2 (10:34) Oh, you could have been. You wouldn't be surprised either way. Speaker 3 (10:37) If I was like Speaker 2 (10:38) insane about plants. Yeah. That would have also made sense. It would make sense to me. I'm confused about why I'm not good at it. But Speaker 3 (10:44) it also somehow the the juxtaposition of all of the categories that would make you a good plant person and you not being a good plant person does make sense because Speaker 2 (10:52) I feel like as a plant person. Yeah, you're good at plants. Plants are a little less. Speaker 3 (10:57) But they also are. You do have to be keeping an eye on them at all times. You got Speaker 2 (11:02) to Speaker 3 (11:02) keep an eye out for Selene or with your with your plants. Speaker 2 (11:05) In the same way that I don't see dust. I don't see plants like I'm like my brain just does not pick it up. And so I'm like, that's not my business. Yeah. Speaker 3 (11:13) Yeah. Yeah. Well, our friend of around today is named Martha. And Martha is an office manager. I love the name Martha. Do you? Speaker 2 (11:20) Yeah, it's so nice. Speaker 3 (11:21) Go ahead. It is. Well, Martha is an office manager at a midsize. pediatrician's office in a suburb of Speaker 2 (11:29) a Speaker 3 (11:29) major Midwestern city. Why are you already saying, oh, no? Because I Speaker 2 (11:33) just like the doctor's waiting room is so stressful. Speaker 3 (11:36) And Speaker 2 (11:37) pediatricians and like I feel like kids get sick in like record time. Right. Like it's like, oh, you were fine yesterday and now you have an ear infection and like it's ruining your life. And so like I imagine that managing a pediatrician's office is like literally hell. Speaker 3 (11:50) Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Waiting rooms are terrible. Speaker 2 (11:55) liminal, strange. Give me high blood pressure. Yeah, and then they're like, you're sick. Speaker 3 (12:01) They're like, girl. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you stressed me out. Sorry, it sucks here. Yeah, I'm like, the vibes are horrendous. Maybe I wouldn't be so stressed out if the vibes are better. Yeah, Speaker 2 (12:09) get a candle. Just one. Turn these lights down. Fuck the fluorescent lights. Yeah, well, there are five doctors who practice at this office and Speaker 3 (12:19) a whole assortment of like physicians assistants and nurses. plus one receptionist, and Martha. Okay. So there are about 30 people total employed at this office. Okay. As the office manager, Martha's responsible for handling the clinic's expenses, like payroll, rent, utilities, medical waste disposal. And then there's the plants. Speaker 2 (12:38) Oh, no. Speaker 3 (12:41) Now, at first, the plants cost the office nothing because the pediatrician who founded the practice loved plants. Okay. Her name was Dr. Honey. Aww. And she was the most beloved pediatrician in town for decades. I would Speaker 2 (12:55) trust her with my life. Speaker 3 (12:57) Dr. Honey. Exactly. She grew her practice from working solo to employing more than 20 people. And Dr. Honey was known for two things. Her signature Speaker 2 (13:07) polka dot doctor's coat. Okay. And her love of plants. Okay, slay. From Speaker 3 (13:13) the moment she opened her practice, it was covered with plants, like giant money trees, massive pothos plants, string of pearls, English ivies, snake plants galore. Speaker 2 (13:22) And Dr. Honey took care of all of them. I gotta admit, that's not what I want. Like, when I said I wanted a candle, I meant a candle, not like thousands of candles, right? I do want it to feel clean at the doctor's office. And something about the plants, like that's dirt. That's not clean. You literally guessed the Speaker 3 (13:45) question I was going to ask, which is how would you feel if you walked into a doctor's office and there were like a lot of plants? I Speaker 2 (13:52) think I would think I was in the wrong spot. Like, I would be like, this isn't right. This isn't where I'm supposed to be. Like, it's supposed to be uncomfortable in here. There's supposed to be, like, a weird pattern on the chairs. Yeah. I'm supposed to, like, have to go to a little window and give them cards that I don't know where they are and, like, cry. Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:08) There Speaker 2 (14:08) can't be plants here also. That's crazy. So Speaker 3 (14:11) confused, but ultimately it seems like it would improve the vibes for you. How bright are the lights? Um... Speaker 3 (14:20) That's a great Speaker 2 (14:21) question. I do feel like if there's a lot of plants in the doctor's office, there does have to be natural light in the doctor's office. And usually there's not. So that does seem better to me. Speaker 3 (14:29) Yeah. Because I like the sun. Same. Speaker 2 (14:32) Well, Speaker 3 (14:33) Dr. Honey retired about four years before our story starts. Congratulations, girl. You did it. I can't wait to retire if Speaker 2 (14:40) it ever happens. We're never retiring. And I know. Speaker 3 (14:42) And I know. Well, when Dr. Honey retired, she actually took all of her plants with her. Speaker 2 (14:47) Oh. Which was actually a relief to our friend of a friend, Martha, who is a plant Speaker 3 (14:52) agnostic. Like she thinks they look nice, but she has zero desire to care for them. Totally. Familiar. Same. So Martha was like, phenomenal. Dr. Speaker 2 (15:00) Honey's taking all of her plants with her. Speaker 3 (15:01) Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:01) Not my Speaker 3 (15:02) problem. Bye Speaker 2 (15:02) bye. Speaker 3 (15:03) Literally. And Martha kept thinking this was phenomenal until all of the kiddos and their families started complaining Speaker 2 (15:10) about the lack of plants. Okay. Speaker 3 (15:13) For a month, it was all anyone working at the practice heard about. Like it showed up in their Google reviews and in the comments on the article in the local paper about Dr. Honey's retirement. The comments were like, you could really sense the love back in Dr. Honey's day. We all just knew we could trust her with our children right from when we walked in the door. So many doctors are just in it for the money these days. Oh, my God. OK. First off, people will Speaker 2 (15:37) complain about Speaker 3 (15:37) anything, Speaker 2 (15:38) not necessarily your business. Speaker 3 (15:40) Second off, Speaker 2 (15:41) the plants made you feel that way. To me, doctors, they work a lot. Probably shouldn't have that much time to look after these plants. Should probably be more concerned about me being sick. True. Is my thought. But also I'm like, people are really easily persuaded away from being in a bad mood. So like, what if you just got a soft serve machine? Speaker 2 (16:03) Like, oh, there are no more plants, but we have soft serve. Problem solved. Problem solved. Oh, Speaker 1 (16:07) there's Speaker 2 (16:07) no more plants, but we have 100 slinkies. Like, children are easily made happy. And they are. The children, I feel, were not as passionate about the plants as their parents were. So I'm like, you get the parents. A nice candle. Speaker 3 (16:21) You get the children Speaker 2 (16:22) a soft serve machine. Everyone's happy. Everyone's happy. Speaker 3 (16:26) It sounds like you don't have a lot of sympathy for these commenters. No, I never Speaker 2 (16:30) do. But I do respect them. Whenever I go somewhere that I really like, I like to read the one star reviews afterward. Because I'm like, wow, I just had the best dinner ever. Let's read the one star review. And the one star review is like, it was closed. One star. Speaker 3 (16:44) No, literally, it never has anything to do with the quality. It's always Speaker 2 (16:47) just like when I went. DoorDash driver left my thing outside one star. Speaker 3 (16:53) This was the best thing I ever ate, but the bag ripped. Speaker 2 (16:59) Best meal I've ever eaten fork too small. One star. Speaker 3 (17:04) Well, the five remaining doctors and all the staff were in agreement. If it will make these people shut the fuck up. It won't. They're like, let's just get some plans to honor Dr. Honey's memory, even though Dr. Honey is alive and well. No, I just as Speaker 2 (17:23) a veteran of the blog minds. It won't. It won't make them shut up and it won't make them happy. Well, Speaker 3 (17:31) at the time, no one wanted to just like take on caring for a bunch of plants on Speaker 2 (17:34) top of their normal jobs. Speaker 3 (17:36) No. Right? Speaker 2 (17:37) So instead, Martha actually found and hired a plant service that supplied the office with about 50 plants. Martha, incredible. Really good idea. Right? All of the plants