551 - I Won’t See You Later

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

The hosts discuss their studio refresh and personal milestones regarding sobriety before transitioning into two intense true crime stories.

Key takeaways

• Attorney Rufus Choate famously utilized a sleepwalking defense for Albert J. Terrell in 1845.
• Maria Bickford was a sex worker in Boston who was murdered in a boarding house.
• The book 'Hangxiety' by Millie Gooch discusses the physiological impact of alcohol on the brain.
• Antoine Yates lived with a 400-pound Bengal Siberian mix tiger named Ming in Harlem.
• The sleepwalking defense is noted as one of the first of its kind used in American courts.

Main topics

• 19th-century Boston murder trial
• The sleepwalking defense in US law
• Exotic animal possession in NYC

Notable quotes

We're taking what works for me and leaving the rest.

Conclusion

A fascinating exploration of how legal strategies and bizarre circumst

Transcript preview

Speaker 6 (0:01) This is exactly Speaker 2 (0:02) right. Speaker 1 (0:06) Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we Speaker 5 (0:19) have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now Speaker 1 (0:26) in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Speaker 5 (0:32) Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 4 (0:37) I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 3 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want. Speaker 6 (0:53) Cindy said I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth. Speaker 4 (0:58) Listen to Season 3 of Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 6 (1:07) Hey there, everybody. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes here from the Amy and TJ podcast. We are your one stop shop for the biggest news making headlines of the day. We've got you covered. Yeah, there's a lot of news happening these days and some of it's breaking. We are on top of it every single day. There's a bunch of true crime going on out there as well. And so much of it dominating on social media. We have our eye on it all. Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Speaker 7 (1:55) And Speaker 3 (1:55) welcome. To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgara. This is our brand new table. Look at our new table slash studio, kind of. Yeah. Slash decorations. Speaker 2 (2:06) We just did a little bit of a refresh rehab. And when I say we, I mean everybody else that works here. They Speaker 8 (2:13) did an amazing job. Yes. Everything. If you're not watching on Netflix, what are you even doing? Speaker 2 (2:17) Come on. We stream. We're Speaker 3 (2:19) literally on Netflix and you can see all our cute, like. stuff behind us. All Speaker 2 (2:24) kinds of stuff people that listen to the show made. People Speaker 3 (2:27) that listen to the show made a lot of, what's it called when there's secrets? Easter eggs. Easter eggs, thank you. Speaker 2 (2:32) And Speaker 3 (2:33) lots of cute stuff. Speaker 2 (2:34) Yeah, we should do kind of like a tour. Yeah, Speaker 3 (2:38) for the Speaker 2 (2:38) fan cult. That's right. A little walk you through, find the names of all Speaker 7 (2:42) the people that made us this stuff. Everyone's like, no! I love it. It's so exciting. What's up with you? Speaker 2 (2:49) Well, I have spidery eyelashes today. Did you get them done? I just have a ton of mascara on. I did like a primer. Speaker 3 (2:57) They look different. Thank you. They're Speaker 2 (2:59) like Speaker 3 (2:59) visibly different. Speaker 2 (3:00) Primer and then Katie Jane Hughes. Do you follow her on social media? She's a British makeup artist, very famous, does famous people. But she's came out with her own line of stuff. Okay. Doesn't need my help. But the second she was like, I make my own mascara. And the wand is like a quarter of the size of a normal one. Yeah. So you can just get in there and Speaker 7 (3:19) flick out. Speaker 3 (3:20) This isn't, I don't Speaker 7 (3:21) know. I don't know what we're doing. We're not selling anything, but Speaker 8 (3:24) they're visibly different. Speaker 3 (3:25) I'm like, they're bright. I like them. Speaker 7 (3:27) Okay, good. Visibly, positively. Yes. Okay, great, great, great. Visibly, like, bright. And bushy. Okay, good. Is that a thing? Bushy tail. Do you Speaker 2 (3:34) want bushy eyes? I wanted to give you the experience of what it was like to sit across from me and study Hall sophomore year. And this is what it was like. Just Speaker 7 (3:42) lashes for days. What are you doing? Stop putting on all that mascara. Oh, my God. I can't. Just crunchy eyelashes. Yeah. How about coat number four and then socializing? Speaker 3 (3:55) The things we do. I have a book recommendation because I have 90 days alcohol-free today. Congratulations. Thank Speaker 2 (4:04) you. Speaker 7 (4:05) Are you doing, and it doesn't matter either way, but are you doing chippage? Are you doing anything Speaker 3 (4:10) official? I'm going to do some chippage. I have my 30-day. I want to get my 90-day. Why not? But Speaker 8 (4:16) I'm not doing hardcore AA, but I do get a lot out of going to meetings. So I'm doing that. My dad offered me his. Speaker 3 (4:25) this big book today. I was like, thank you, dad. But we're taking this step by step. Speaker 8 (4:32) We're not taking it step by step. We're not. We're going Speaker 7 (4:34) against the steps. We're doing sideways crab walking. Exactly. I'm taking Speaker 8 (4:39) what works for me and leaving the rest. OK. So speaking of these things, I'm like getting the thing that's really helped me is getting as much knowledge as I can about how fucked up alcohol is for your like actual. anatomy and your brain and your hormones. So there's a new book out called Hangxiety. Oh. Which if that word triggers you when you hear it, it's your book. Yeah. Right? Hangxiety. Yeah. And you know exactly what that is, right? You wake up and you're immediately, oh, fuck. Yeah. Oh, fuck. What Speaker 2 (5:11) have I done? Speaker 8 (5:12) What have I done? What did I say? So it's a book called Hangxiety by Millie Gooch. Hey. Who's a listener. Who's really cool. The Gooch. The Gooch listens? And it's just a lot of like really good information, but told in a way that's relatable that you can understand. She's also British. There's a lot of cute sayings Speaker 3 (5:27) and words in it that we don't use, but it's good. That's great. Yeah, it's definitely helping me. Speaker 2 (5:32) Really nothing better than. Being able to read something that actually feels like it's getting you somewhere else. Yeah. Speaker 8 (5:38) That Speaker 2 (5:39) we're out of where you don't want to be and toward where you want to be. Speaker 8 (5:41) Totally. And it makes it so much harder to then do the thing that's so bad for you when you know exactly the systems that it's fucking with. Yeah. You know? Speaker 2 (5:49) That's right. A little of the science behind it. Science. Who knew? Anxiety. Speaker 3 (5:55) Anxiety. That's really good. Oh, Speaker 7 (5:56) God. Speaker 3 (5:57) Never again. I never want. That's like what this is. I just don't want to wake up. Like that again ever in my life. And the only way to do that is to not drink. I know. It sucks. Speaker 2 (6:06) My worst one was like it truly I woke up in such a good mood. And then I was like, wait, why am I in such a good mood? And then the Polaroid started rolling. Yeah. And it truly was like a bad. It was almost like a bad Jonah Hill movie where I was like, wait. Is this one Speaker 8 (6:24) where you saw Speaker 7 (6:25) yourself kissing someone? Trying to. Trying to. Trying to like lean in for a. Smooch. Somebody else is like, oh, God. And it really isn't my style sober. No. To be all. Well, that's why you do it. Yeah, that's Speaker 2 (6:39) right. A little permish. Yeah. But oh, my God. I can see it as clear as day. And that happened 58 years ago. Speaker 8 (6:47) Are you still friends with him? Does he know that he's part of your lore? Speaker 2 (6:51) I'd rather not say. Speaker 7 (6:55) What if we don't reveal one thing about ourselves? That's part of this. Yeah. My face is getting all hot. Speaker 2 (7:01) It's embarrassing to the moment. It's like all those moments that I haven't had to do since that time, I'm very grateful for. And Speaker 8 (7:08) that's like why it's funny and okay to talk about it is because you did something about it. You're not still lingering in that bad place. So to me, it's like. You still don't have to name names. Don't have Speaker 2 (7:18) to name names. But also, yeah, because you don't have to fully throw yourself on the crucifix of I was so bad to do this. Lots of people do it. Lots of people work their way through it and out of it and do other things. We're all going to progress in this life in whatever way we choose to. Yeah. I'd rather go on that way. I want to go Speaker 7 (7:37) toward Christ. Don't you guys? And that's why we got this new table. Karen said it. Speaker 3 (7:45) Go towards Christ. Finally, up to the Lord. That's making me embarrassed. That's who you tried to kiss. Yes, Jesus Christ. Speaker 7 (7:52) He had such pretty hair and these cool sandals. You love a beard. Yes. And he was just so understanding. Oh, my God. And a guy who's like handy. And he's like, do you want more wine? I'm like, where are you getting this wine? So sacrilegious. I love it. I know. Speaker 8 (8:04) Okay. Let's get into it, shall we? We Speaker 7 (8:06) should. Oh, Speaker 8 (8:07) we have a podcast network still. That's Speaker 2 (8:09) correct. It's Speaker 8 (8:10) called Exactly Right Media. And here Speaker 7 (8:12) are some highlights from our beautiful, wonderful bounty of shows. We have so many great shows building Speaker 2 (8:17) more and more by the day. Yeah. Speaker 3 (8:19) And Speaker 2 (8:19) here's the thing. I'm just going to brag on us. Good. We make hits. Yeah. Over here. Yeah. Exactly right. Very proud of all these shows, one of which is Paul Holes and Kate Winkler Dawson's Buried Bones. The two of them traveled to 1911 to Sault Ste. Marie, Canada. They wrote out how to pronounce Marie. Thanks, you guys. Where a woman named Angelina Napolitano faces the ultimate punishment for a shocking crime. What's Speaker 8 (8:45) the crime and what's the punishment? You'll have to listen to find out. Do your own work. And then over on fucking Hollywood land, amazing Hollywood land, Jake and Zeph look back at Will Smith's rise from a 1989 arrest that nearly derailed his career to becoming one of Hollywood's biggest stars. Then decades later, he finds himself at the center of controversy once again with the slap heard around the world. Like that, that's so cringe. Speaker 2 (9:09) Such an incredible moment. Twitter was still Twitter. People were still watching things and... live tweeting, posting, and then that happened. Oh, God. And we switch timelines. Speaker 7 (9:22) So check that out on Hollywoodland. Speaker 2 (9:24) And then over on That's Messed Up, Cara and Lisa break down the SVU episode In the Wind and the case of murder and landlord Kim Kyu Soo. Plus, they're joined with our own Michael Foote from Brief Recess to talk about the ongoing U.S. immigration crisis. It's very much ongoing. Speaking Speaker 8 (9:42) of Michael, over on Brief Recess, he and Melissa sit down with none other than Clay Aiken to talk dad life, his new album, and what it was like. like coming out as gay in good old 2008. Oh, I Speaker 2 (9:55) mean, incredible. Full credit to Clay Aiken. Also, don't forget to watch Michael Foote on The Traitor's New Blood. So episodes three and four will be out tonight on NBC. Love it. And in the merch corner, spooky season Speaker 8 (10:07) has officially arrived at the exactly right store. Check out the My Favorite Murder illustrations. This is the MFM illustrations T-shirt and art print designed by Charlotte Croy Hudson. How freaking cool is this? Speaker 2 (10:20) Twelve little beautiful pieces of personalized art of things that we love and are known for on the show. Yeah. Like the middle finger. The Home Depot 12-foot Speaker 3 (10:30) skeleton. It's like little Easter eggs of stuff we like. There's a Swiss cheese. Like, Speaker 7 (10:34) that's old school. That's old. Down next to Elvis. Mothman, of course. There's a sinkhole. All the things we love. Speaker 3 (10:41) And I have crows on my dress. I mean. Look, listen. Look, listen. We got it all. Speaker 8 (10:46) I fucking love that thing so much. I do, too. And then we're also getting a Raglan shirt of Stay Out of the Forest. It's spooky Halloween. It's a brand new design. Speaker 2 (10:56) It's moon-centered Speaker 7 (10:57) and moon-centric and moon-forward. You love moons. I Speaker 3 (11:01) do. So check that out at exactlyrightstore.com. I love moons, plural. Speaker 2 (11:07) Moons wherever I can get them. It's exciting to do podcasting like a Charlie Rose style here. It's very, it feels cool. Very official. Speaker 1 (11:17) Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisi DiGiulio, the old one, Speaker 5 (11:32) which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Speaker 1 (11:39) I'm not going to Speaker 5 (11:40) get anywhere fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Speaker 1 (11:46) Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, Speaker 5 (12:00) getting older. And a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Speaker 1 (12:04) Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight. But there's only so much fight I can fight. Speaker 5 (12:12) Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Speaker 1 (12:14) Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Speaker 2 (12:28) My story today begins in October of 1845 in a boarding house in Boston, Massachusetts. Old newspaper reports describe this Beacon Hill boarding house as, quote, disreputable. Fun. Speaker 7 (12:40) Like, what else are you Speaker 3 (12:41) going to be if you're a boarding house? Right? But disreputable. Get some good shit going on in there. I've never heard of Speaker 7 (12:45) a reputable boarding house. Gambling in the basement. Sexy stuff upstairs. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (12:50) Some just call it a brothel. while others say it's a place that caters to unmarried couples who live together. Sounds great. Sounds like everywhere in L.A. Regardless, all of those choices are frowned upon by 19th century polite society, of course. So on the chilly morning of October 27th, 1845, around 5 a.m., the old couple who own this boarding house hear a woman scream, followed by a loud thud and what sounds like someone rushing down the stairs and out the front door. The couple go to see what's going on and find one of their female tenants in her bedroom, dead on the floor. Her throat has been slashed, there's blood everywhere, and there are several small fires burning on and around her body. The victim is identified as 21-year-old Maria Bickford, and this is the notorious case of Maria's murder and the incredibly sensationalized trial for her accused killer. The main sources used for this story are an article by my best friend, Robert Wilhelm, who has his website, Murder by Gaslight, which we have used on this show so many times. And he has written a bunch of great books. I've recommended them a lot of times. Also, a historic pamphlet recounting the murder trial and a Smithsonian Magazine article by Abbott Kaler. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So sometime in the 1820s, Maria Bickford is born Mary Ann Dunn in Maine. Her parents are described in old documents as, quote, poor but respectable. Marianne is described as very beautiful. She has big dreams beyond the quiet, simple life that she's inherited there in Maine. Marianne is said to be strong-willed, which given, of course, the social... Could you imagine just us being born back then? Speaker 7 (14:34) Just immediately. Burned Speaker 3 (14:36) at Speaker 7 (14:36) the stake. Immediately. We're like the first grammar Speaker 2 (14:39) school stake burning. So which, given the social norms of the era, is not complimentary. Still, she can't escape the expectations of young women born into a working class family of the time. So when she's just 16 years old, she gets married. Her husband is a shoemaker, which is great. You like that? Well, yeah. You're like, could you make me some green ones with a slight heel, Speaker 7 (15:02) a little bit of a wedge? You just have that at home. You love a handy Jesus type. I mean. A man who knows shoes, who cares about his shoes. Shoes. Speaker 2 (15:12) Okay. Shoemakers listening? Listen. His name is James Bickford. They live a modest life together near Bangor, Maine. But within two years of being married, Marianne begins an affair with another man. We don't know much about him, but in 1842, when she's around 18 years old, I mean, these are like high school kids. They run off to Boston together. Within a couple of months of their arrival in Boston, Marianne's new boyfriend gets bored with the affair. bear, seemingly, and goes back to Maine and leaves Marianne behind. Speaker 7 (15:42) So here's a picture of Maria Bickford. Okay, that's just a hard drawing to understand, but I'm sure she's beautiful. What was beautiful about her was all of the terrible pebbling on her face. Someone had stepped with a big shoe. The, like, leaking Sharpie that they used. To draw her face. But she's doing my mascara trick and I'm really