The Hunt for John List (Part 2)

Morbid

This episode of Morbid continues the story of John List, a man who murdered his family and evaded capture for nearly two decades. The hosts delve into List's

Key takeaways

• John List's childhood was defined by an obsessive maternal bond and emotional neglect from his father, contributing to a deeply insecure and isolated personality.
• Despite appearing calm and reserved, List had access to firearms during military service, which he later used in the murders.

Main topics

• John List's childhood and family background
• His military service and access to firearms

Notable quotes

"He was polite, he was mature, he was almost, like, pathologically reserved."

Conclusion

John List's story is a chilling reminder of how deep psychological trauma and emotional isolation can lead

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. Speaker 1 (0:19) This is Mormon. We're post book tour. We are. I'm exhausted, but it was so, so amazing. It was so fun. It Speaker 2 (0:27) was go, go, go. It was. Speaker 1 (0:30) It was nonstop. And it was, but everybody we got to meet, like you Speaker 2 (0:34) guys were Speaker 1 (0:34) awesome. Yeah, people were very nice. Thank Speaker 2 (0:36) you Speaker 1 (0:36) for coming out for the book. It was so cool. Speaker 2 (0:38) People gave like the nicest little gifties. Yeah. Speaker 1 (0:40) And everybody was just like lovely. Love that. Like it was like a genuinely wildly. Lovely experience. Like every single person I met, I was like, oh, fuck. Yeah. You're awesome. And we finished it off at church. I'm Speaker 2 (0:55) glad I Speaker 1 (0:55) did it. Finished it off at a church. I gave a sermon. Yeah. So and people were lovely there too. Yeah, it was great. And now I'm just recouping. Yeah. And your immune system is ass. Yeah, it is. It just is. Speaker 2 (1:10) Subjecting yourself to meeting so many people is tough. Yeah. Because Speaker 1 (1:14) you're just like, bleh. I immediately get sick. But honestly, so worth it. Yeah, very worth it. Speaker 2 (1:19) So, so very worth it. You guys were awesome. And now you just have to wait for the list. Yes. Next week? Speaker 1 (1:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's not that bad. We shall see. Okay. We're not going to say anything. You Speaker 2 (1:30) guys made Speaker 1 (1:30) a hell of a turnout. Yeah, that was. And I appreciate you. Speaker 2 (1:33) What did I think? Didn't somebody say it was like a book tour on steroids? Yeah, that's what my literary agent said. Yeah, it Speaker 1 (1:39) was. Speaker 2 (1:40) All right. I don't think there's any business. I mean, buy the book, continue to buy it. Speaker 1 (1:45) Yeah, go get that book. It seems to be doing okay. So I feel good about it. It's always that scary thing of putting the book out and being like, because Speaker 2 (1:54) you're Speaker 1 (1:55) like, did you like it? Yeah. But I'm excited. I'm excited for you guys to read it. Speaker 2 (2:00) It's a very, very wonderful book. Speaker 1 (2:01) Thank you. I quite Speaker 2 (2:02) enjoyed it. I quite enjoyed it. I liked it a lot. What I don't like a lot is that we have to talk about John Speaker 1 (2:09) List again today. We Speaker 2 (2:11) do, Speaker 1 (2:11) but I'm excited for this part. Speaker 2 (2:13) Yeah, this is a, you know, spoiler alert, he gets caught. Speaker 1 (2:17) Yeah, that's the thing. I'm like, I'm ready to see this fucker go down. Speaker 2 (2:21) Yes. We're going to get there. But first, I kind of have to tell you a little bit about his early life. How he became John List. Tell Speaker 1 (2:29) me Speaker 2 (2:29) about Speaker 1 (2:29) this idiot. Speaker 2 (2:30) Okay. I will. He was born September 17th in Bay City, Michigan to John Frederick, known as JF, and Alma List. They were cousins. Speaker 2 (2:42) Oh. His parents were cousins. Speaker 1 (2:44) Oh. With a Speaker 2 (2:46) 20-year age difference between them. Oh. Okay. Speaker 1 (2:50) We got so much working for us here. Already so much Speaker 2 (2:53) to unpack. Yeah, we're Speaker 1 (2:54) way Speaker 2 (2:54) ahead. Speaker 1 (2:55) You can't marry Speaker 2 (2:55) your cousin. Nope. Can't do that. Alma was a devout Lutheran, and she was described as humorless in nearly every aspect of her life. So John Speaker 1 (3:06) List. Speaker 2 (3:06) Yes. Yeah. I was just going to say two traits that she Speaker 1 (3:08) very much passed on Speaker 2 (3:10) to her son. Apple right from the tree. She also was an extremely, I guess you could say devoted mother, but it bordered on obsessiveness. Uh-oh. And it became a Speaker 1 (3:20) little too much. I mean, you marry your cousin. Yeah. Family's going to get a little weird from then on out. It's Speaker 2 (3:25) pretty true. Yeah. Not only did she dote on John day and night, but she also, quote, dressed him herself well beyond the age when other mothers might have urged independence. And she couldn't stand to have him out of her sight for very long. Speaker 1 (3:37) Okay. A Speaker 2 (3:38) little weird. Speaker 1 (3:39) Yeah. Like the dressing thing. The dressing thing. Out of your sight. Yeah. I can't say shit about Speaker 2 (3:43) that. Speaker 1 (3:43) I can't say shit about that. But the dressing is what I'm Speaker 2 (3:46) referring to. Yeah. Children need to learn how to get dressed. Absolutely. They do. Speaker 1 (3:51) Absolutely. Clearly. So Speaker 2 (3:52) John's relationship with his father, though, is more complicated. As a strict businessman who worked long hours, J.F. had very little time for his family. After working all day and into the night, he usually just came home for a late dinner. He'd flip through the newspaper and then read a few passages of the Bible with his family and then would just send his kid to bed. Speaker 1 (4:12) Oh, that sounds fun. They Speaker 2 (4:14) didn't really get a lot of quality time. No. The overbearing nature of his mom and remote nature of his dad inevitably led John to develop a softer personality and kind of like a quiet, shy demeanor. Speaker 1 (4:25) Yeah, that makes sense. Speaker 2 (4:26) Now, the thing that sucked about that, though, was that the other kids in the neighborhood would call him a mama's boy and a sissy because Speaker 1 (4:33) he was Speaker 2 (4:33) like close with his mom. Which Speaker 1 (4:34) I hate that because I'm like, that's not his fault. It's also not a bad thing. And it's also just not his fault. Like, he Speaker 2 (4:40) didn't... do that like it's Speaker 1 (4:42) like that's just his family's structure you Speaker 2 (4:45) know like Speaker 1 (4:45) that's you know the parent causing that makes you feel bad the kid gets the blowback from it makes you feel bad for like the little kid yeah for sure not the adult at all no Speaker 2 (4:55) Now, outside of his, I guess, somewhat unusual upbringing, detectives really didn't find a lot in his background that would have suggested he would go on to commit a crime, much less this crime. The crime. Like, become a family annihilator. One neighbor said, I never recall him having a temper or getting angry. Huh. Which is pretty wild. Wow. When he graduated from high school in 1943, he enlisted in the Army, and he was shipped off to Louisiana for basic training. And it was during this time in the service that he obtained the 9mm pistol, which he would later use to murder his entire family. That's Speaker 1 (5:28) horrifying. Speaker 2 (5:28) Yeah. When World War II ended, John returned home and enrolled in summer courses at Bay City Junior College. And he earned credits that he would eventually transfer to an accounting program at the University of Michigan. He was an older student Speaker 1 (5:42) because he had put off enrollment since Speaker 2 (5:44) he was in the military. Speaker 1 (5:45) Yeah. So Speaker 2 (5:46) again, he was kind of an outsider, like with everybody at school. And they found him kind of like too serious, too stuffy. Like he wasn't really interested in what they were. Years later, when they were asked about John List, most of his fellow students really couldn't remember anything about him. Speaker 1 (6:02) Damn. Speaker 2 (6:03) Which, like, I think he was just kind of doing his thing. Speaker 1 (6:06) Yeah, he was just kind of floating through. Not everybody goes to college to make friends. No. Speaker 2 (6:10) Now, when the Korean War broke out, John was again called up to serve, and he spent almost two years in mostly administrative roles and then was transferred back to Fort Eustace in Virginia. And it was there that he met Helen Taylor, and he was immediately smitten with her. For 10 years, Helen had actually been married to Lieutenant Marvin Taylor, who died in Korea trying to save a platoon of 12 soldiers. Whoa. Yeah. Naturally, his death hit Helen pretty hard, and it also left her alone to parent their young daughter. Speaker 1 (6:41) So Speaker 2 (6:41) after six months of grieving, Helen started dating at her sister's insistence. Her sister was like, you have to move on. You can't be stuck in this forever. And it wasn't super easy Speaker 1 (6:52) to be a single mom back then. No, of course not. It Speaker 2 (6:54) still Speaker 1 (6:54) isn't. I was Speaker 2 (6:55) going to say. But especially back then. So things hadn't really been going very well in the dating department until Helen met John. While most women found his soft, shy personality to be kind of off-putting, Helen kind of welcomed the change of pace because the men that she had met were a little more brash. She had met like these military men who she was being set up with that she just like wasn't hitting it off with. Then she met John, and he was polite, he was mature, he was almost, like, pathologically reserved. Ah, that's a good way of describing that. Yeah. Putting it bluntly, when she considered her options and her recent dating experiences, John kind of seemed like the safest and the easiest choice. Yeah, Speaker 1 (7:37) I get it. You know? Speaker 2 (7:38) As her daughter Brenda put it, her mother just settled on John. Oof. Yeah. So they'd only been dating for a few months when Helen realized she was pregnant. in 1951. Her sister said, I don't think he wanted to get married. One week it was yes, the next week it was no. In the end, his... That's not good. Yeah, if you want somebody to be like so obsessed with you that they're like... Speaker 1 (7:59) Pretty enthusiastic about getting married. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:02) But in the end, his religious upbringing kind of solved the question over what they should do. They decided that they should get married and raise the baby. It was the right thing. Speaker 1 (8:10) Okay. Speaker 2 (8:10) So a few weeks before their wedding though, Helen discovered that the pregnancy was a false alarm. She actually wasn't pregnant. And she told John. She was honest. But by that time, he had already committed to the wedding. So on December 1st, 1951, they were married in Baltimore, Maryland. And we Speaker 1 (8:26) were just there. Okay. Speaker 2 (8:28) Now, after the wedding and a brief honeymoon in Washington, D.C., John was reassigned to the Army's Finance Corps, where he finished out the second tour of duty, and then he was discharged in 1952. They kind of moved around a lot. In the years that followed, they moved to Michigan to be near Alma. Between 1955 and 1958, the three kids were born. First Patty, then John Jr., then Frederick. Brenda lived with her mother and John, but she said she usually felt like an outlier, which is really sad. Because remember, Speaker 1 (8:59) she Speaker 2 (9:00) was Helen's daughter from the first marriage. A lot of times she said she was left with her grandmother, while her mother and stepfather just went on trips without her. Speaker 1 (9:08) Oh my God. And Speaker 2 (9:10) that makes me wonder, I'm like, were they going on trips with like the new kids together and just leaving you at Speaker 1 (9:15) home? Or like, or was it just them going on trips? Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:18) Cause I mean, either Speaker 1 (9:19) way it Speaker 2 (9:19) kind Speaker 1 (9:20) of stinks, Speaker 2 (9:20) but that would add insult to injury if it was with the new kids. She said, I didn't mind staying with my grandmother. I loved her, but I felt a little rejected. I missed my mother terribly. I didn't understand why she left me behind. Speaker 1 (9:32) Oh, that's awful. It really is. I hate that. Speaker 2 (9:34) Yeah. Now, despite being a good accountant and a reliable employee, John did struggle in his professional life. He had very poor interpersonal skills, as we've come to realize. Yeah. And he was usually just like a fucking curmudgeon. Speaker 1 (9:49) Yeah, that's what he sounds like. He's just Speaker 2 (9:51) grumpy. He was always at odds with his co-workers. Yeah. Speaker 1 (9:55) And Speaker 2 (9:55) the fact that he was so rigid really irritated his bosses. Because you have to learn how to... work in an environment with other people. Yeah, Speaker 1 (10:03) you can't just be like an angry robot. No. It's Speaker 2 (10:05) not going to work. Doesn't make for good, you know, company vibes. Now in 1956, just months away from the birth of his son, John's employer called him into his office and said, it might be best if he sought employment elsewhere. Wow. It's like firing light. Yeah, I was going to say. I was like, what if this was your idea? What if? But also my idea. It could be great. Let's give it a try. What do you think? And Speaker 1 (10:31) you leave. That's it. And John was like, okay. Got it. So Speaker 2 (10:35) he managed to get a new job at a manufacturing company. But being that close to poverty instilled a deep fear of failure that would haunt him for the rest of his life. Because when he took this new job, it was a pay cut. Speaker 1 (10:46) Oh, okay. Speaker 2 (10:47) And now he has even more kids to support. So for the next four years, they, you know, the list seemed to be happy. They seemed to be supportive, I think, from the outside. But behind closed doors, there were secrets and there were small resentments that were building. And they were very much starting to affect not just the family, but John and Helen's marriage at its core. Helen had struggled with depression since her first husband died, obviously. And unfortunately, she didn't seek any kind of help for that. Speaker 1 (11:14) There Speaker 2 (11:15) also wasn't a ton of help for that back then. Speaker 1 (11:17) I was Speaker 2 (11:17) going to say at Speaker 1 (11:17) the time. Speaker 2 (11:18) They probably would have put her on speed. Speaker 1 (11:19) Probably. Speaker 2 (11:20) So she turned to drinking as a means of escaping. And on top of that, she had also been experiencing chronic physical pain as a result of poorly treated syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband. Holy shit. But had never told John about. Speaker 1 (11:35) Oh, man. Yeah. That can fuck you up. Yeah, Speaker 2 (11:39) syphilis is no fucking joke. So the drinking, you know, maybe helped her cope with the physical pain, but it only made her depression worse. And by the end of the 50s, she was struggling to perform even the most basic responsibilities as a homemaker. And that left a lot of the housework to Brenda at that time. Now, when Brenda married and moved out in 1960, John saw it as an opportunity to shake things up. And he accepted a different position in Rochester, New York, and moved his entire family across the country. Since Helen was pretty much incapable of keeping up with the kids in the house, that's when Alma moved in with them. And then five years later, John was offered a position in New Jersey. It was a considerable step up. John wanted his lifestyle to reflect this promotion, so when it came time to look for a house in New Jersey, he settled on Westfield, which is where that lovely mansion was. Based on the paperwork and the financial statements that were provided to their realtor, the agent chose a number of houses to show them that was in the $20,000 to $30,000 range, which, like, can we all just take a second? Speaker 1 (12:42) Holy shit. In, like, an upper, Speaker 2 (12:44) like, upper middle class. Yeah. Like a suburb of New Jersey. 20 to Speaker 1 (12:50) 30, and it's like a massive mansion. Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:52) Well, so 20 to 30,000 was what they were showing them at first. Yeah. They figured that was roughly what the family could afford. The houses were adequate for a family of six people, but they weren't as much of a step up at that range as John and Helen had in mind. So despite their financial limitations, they wanted a house befitting of a vice president of a bank. regardless of whether or not they could afford it. Speaker 1 (13:16) When Speaker 2 (13:17) the agent, this agent's kind of like a rock star because the agent was like, I can't in good conscious help you buy a house you can't afford. Yeah, which like, Speaker 1 (13:25) thank goodness. Speaker 2 (13:26) I'm Speaker 1 (13:26) not Speaker 2 (13:26) supposed to do that. Yeah. So they kind of fired, not even kind of, they fired. They kind Speaker 1 (13:31) of fired. I'm like Speaker 2 (13:32) firing light everywhere. It's Speaker 1 (13:33) so crazy. They did Speaker 2 (13:35) fire him. They moved on to a new realtor. And eventually they found Breeze Knoll, which was the mansion on Hillside Avenue. Speaker 1 (13:41) Now. Speaker 2 (13:42) By all accounts, it wasn't just the elegance and the glamour of the house that attracted the list to it. For John, it was the way that the house seemed to revive something in Helen that he just hadn't seen in years. After a decade in the Midwest and a few years in industrial Rochester, both places where she'd never been quite comfortable, the house on Hillside Avenue reminded Helen of her childhood in North Carolina, and it seemed to bring back these really nice memories for her, which kind of reinvigorated her spirit. Now, the agent reminded them that the payments would be pretty considerable and very out of their price range. Speaker 1 (14:18) Yeah. But John dismissed the advice and made an offer on the house, which Speaker 2 (14:23) low-key set him up for disaster. Speaker 1 (14:25) Now, after digging through John's entire Speaker 2 (14:27) life, investigators, again, didn't find anything to indicate potential for deadly violence. But also, they didn't find any clues as to where he might have gone after he left New Jersey. As far as they could tell, he had no productive ties outside of his own family, and none of those people had seen or heard from him since the murders were committed. Like, if he had a friend on the outside, they hadn't heard from him, and none of his extended family had. Speaker 1 (14:51) Damn. Speaker 2 (14:52) There also didn't appear Speaker 1 (14:53) to be any Speaker 2 (14:54) international connections that could have offered him safety in the months after he killed his family. An FBI spokesperson told a reporter in the early summer of 1972, it was as though the guy was just swallowed up. Speaker 1 (15:07) Oh, that's spooky. To Speaker 2 (15:09) picture that? Speaker 1 (15:10) Yeah, I don't like that. It's like, poof. Just swallowed up. Yeah. Speaker 2 (15:14) Now, since the bodies were discovered, the