Morbid Book Club: Killing The Boogeyman by Richard Chizmar

Morbid

In this special Morbid Book Club episode, hosts welcome author Richard Chismar to discuss his upcoming release, Killing the Boogeyman. The c

Key takeaways

• The upcoming book Killing the Boogeyman is set for release on October 6th.
• Chismar utilizes mundane, realistic photos at the end of chapters to mimic a true crime aesthetic.

Main topics

• Killing the Boogeyman book release
• Horror writing techniques

Notable quotes

The vibes are immaculate here.

Conclusion

A deep dive into the creative mind of a horror author that provides in

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:09) this super special book club episode is brought to you by Ashley. Now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home story. As the largest furniture store brand in North America, Ashley can help you create a comfortable, functional, and might I add, very stylish home that you can feel proud of, and all in a price range that works for you. With lifestyle-driven designs, you don't have to choose between being practical and being stylish. Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style. Speaker 4 (0:41) Hey, weirdos. I'm Speaker 2 (0:42) Ash. I'm Alina. I'm Rich. And this is a very special episode of Morbid. It is. We have a special guest, Richard Chismar. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thanks for having Speaker 1 (0:52) me. Speaker 2 (0:53) Thank you for coming. Yeah. We've just been hanging and chatting for a little while. Already great vibes to start off. The vibes are immaculate here. I feel like Speaker 1 (1:00) I've known you guys for a long time already. Right? Speaker 2 (1:02) Yeah, we're Speaker 1 (1:02) homies. Speaker 2 (1:02) And Speaker 1 (1:02) I Speaker 2 (1:02) feel like we've been trading arcs back and forth for a little while. I feel like so we're getting to know each other here. And you have a new book. in the series, the Boogeyman series, Killing the Boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th. I've got to read this ahead of time, and I feel very lucky. I'm jealous. Speaker 4 (1:20) I love this series so much. I'm Speaker 2 (1:22) going Speaker 4 (1:22) to steal your arc. I love stealing your arcs. You Speaker 2 (1:24) can steal the arc. Thank you. It's awesome, and it's such a good conclusion to the series. It's Speaker 1 (1:29) kind Speaker 4 (1:29) of Speaker 1 (1:30) crazy. I Speaker 2 (1:30) know. Speaker 1 (1:31) Seeing them Speaker 2 (1:31) all right here. It must be to see them all lined up, right? Speaker 1 (1:34) Yeah. Yeah. Especially because there was never supposed to be a second book. Oh, really? No, never. Speaker 2 (1:39) Oh, really? Nope. This was just supposed to stop at the first one? Speaker 1 (1:42) Yeah. I would have been sad. Writing about myself for one book was enough. Yeah. And I actually remember telling my editor and my agent, I'm like, that's it. That's it. Speaker 2 (1:50) That's it. It's all I got. Can't do it again. Speaker 1 (1:52) And I'll be honest, even though the first one was like a surprise hit, no one was like banging down my door saying, we need a second one. Really? Speaker 4 (1:59) We Speaker 1 (1:59) need a second one. And then I was mowing the lawn one day, as crazy as that sounds. like in a five minute span i had the idea for the entire first chapter of becoming the boogeyman which ends with a And I never say this about my work because I envy those writers who are like, I can't wait till you read my next book. It's great. Speaker 2 (2:17) Oh, yeah. Because I'm always Speaker 1 (2:18) like, well, Speaker 2 (2:19) hopefully you like it. If inside you hate it, I hope Speaker 1 (2:22) you don't figure that out until you spent the $29 on it. You guys have that in common. So I get my royalty. Speaker 2 (2:27) But yeah, Speaker 1 (2:29) just for the first time, I just knew that chapter was good. And it ended on that twist that connected so strongly to the first book. So I remember thinking, if anyone can read that first chapter. And not, you know, if they're standing in the store reading it and they read it and they can't, they don't take it up to the register, I'll be shocked. Speaker 2 (2:46) Yeah. Speaker 1 (2:47) So, you know, it just fit that neatly. So I was like, okay, I have to write it. And then just through discussions with my editor, you know, he's like, yeah, it's got to be a trilogy. Yeah, you Speaker 2 (2:56) got to keep going. Speaker 1 (2:56) These always have to be a trilogy. Nice. You Speaker 2 (2:57) got Speaker 1 (2:57) to. You know. Speaker 2 (2:58) You got to. Yeah. I loved it. That first chapter immediately hooked me. And just the idea of chasing the boogeyman got me right away because. I picked it up in the fiction section, but as I'm reading it, like looking through it, I was like, is this real? Like this feels real. And the more I read it, the more I was like, you made that feel so real. That's several times. I knew, again, I got it in the fiction section. I knew it was not real, but several times I was like, Speaker 4 (3:26) is this real? Like I was like, is any part of this Speaker 2 (3:29) real? Because you nailed the true crime book vibes. I love Speaker 1 (3:34) true crime. So that was the thing. It's like, you know, I've always thought, you know, if there was a local case and it was the right thing and I felt like I could add something to the stories and, you know, in a dignified way and honor the victims and the survivors, you know, maybe I'd do it because I actually kind of enjoy research. Speaker 2 (3:51) Yeah. Speaker 1 (3:53) Even though I write books where I just, you know. I don't have to do research. I just make it up. There's always Speaker 2 (3:58) something to research. Speaker 1 (3:59) But yeah, I always thought that if that came and then when I sat down to write this story, I thought, you know what? I'm going to write this. It's the photos, I think, that did it for a lot of people. Speaker 2 (4:06) The photos, that's what kept making me go back and Googling whether this was real because they came out so real. And it felt like a true crime book. Speaker 1 (4:14) Oh, I bet. And you know how most photos in a true crime books, they're all in one spot. Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:18) They're always in the middle. Which I don't like. It was like in the middle. Speaker 1 (4:21) They make sense. I know it's cheaper to print and they put it on the glossy paper sometimes. So it's nice. So Speaker 2 (4:25) you know it's there. Speaker 1 (4:25) But I always find myself flipping back and forth because I want to see what this person looks like. Speaker 2 (4:29) Yep. Speaker 1 (4:30) Whether it's the good guy, the bad guy, the detective, you know, the senator who gave the press conference, whoever it is, I want to see what they look like. Right. When, when I want to see what that crime scene looks like, you know, and in the good true crime books, they're, you know. the crime scenes aren't bloody or gory. They're just like trampled down grass behind a shed. But it adds so much to that moment when you're reading about it. Exactly. So I knew I wanted photos and I knew I wanted to put them at the end of each chapter. Speaker 2 (4:54) Yeah. I loved that. Because that's exactly how I am. I end up like flipping through and being like, what is this person? I'm like, okay, I'm going to vote back. Yeah, you got to Speaker 4 (5:02) like remind yourself throughout the book. Speaker 1 (5:03) So it was Speaker 4 (5:03) nice Speaker 2 (5:03) that you had them all condensed into each thing. Speaker 1 (5:06) And I think it gave that immediate reinforcement that, hey, what I just read. Was that because who's dumb enough to take a bunch of fake photos? Speaker 2 (5:13) I am, you know. And they look real. It's hard to like stage those kind of photos. Right. And not have them look like, you know, like really like fake. And they, I was like, these are too real to be fake. That must have been so fun Speaker 1 (5:28) to do. They were so much fun. And that's Speaker 2 (5:30) the Speaker 1 (5:30) thing. Most, again, most photos in true crime books, they're not exciting. Speaker 2 (5:34) No. You Speaker 1 (5:34) know, so that was the goal, was to have them be, you know, on the mundane side. Like very mundane. Yeah, right, right. You know, which is hard when it's lifelong friends, you know, dressed up in thrift clothes. Trying to be serious. To be the detective, and you're like, stop it. Stop flexing your jaw. You know, stop sucking Speaker 2 (5:50) in your stomach. Speaker 1 (5:51) Yeah, so, you know, the photos were the most fun part. Oh, Speaker 2 (5:54) yeah. Speaker 1 (5:54) There's times when, I mean, my son and I took most of them, but we had, you know, some of the actors from the short films we've done together. You know, some of them came back. They have wardrobes. So they were cheap, thank God. Oh, I love it. And willing to do it. But the photos are almost the most fun. They Speaker 2 (6:09) are. Because I feel like any, like, I'm like, oh, I'm jealous. Like, I want to take photos for my books now. You can. I'm like, that's so fun. Yes, you can. Because just to be able to visualize it, too, along with it, I feel like that's such an added bonus to it. Speaker 1 (6:21) Definitely. Well, the original idea for Chasing the Boogeyman was to Blair Witch the audience completely. Yes. We Speaker 2 (6:28) heard about that, and I'm so sad that you couldn't. Speaker 1 (6:31) Yeah. I mean, it really quickly. I was thrilled that Simon, you know, that S. Lassenger at Gallery bought it, so don't get me wrong. But then I was really bummed once I had those phone conferences with the legal department. And they were telling me. It wasn't even like a close call. It wasn't like, well, we're going to think about it. It was just like, bitch, no. Speaker 2 (6:49) Absolutely not. You'll get Speaker 1 (6:49) sued. We'll get sued. It's a no-win. Speaker 4 (6:52) It's a great talk. Thanks. I'm just Speaker 1 (6:53) like. I have plans. And they're like, no. I'm like, but I have a fake website to post online that looks like it got updated to like the mid-90s and then it just stopped. Speaker 4 (7:03) That'd be so sick. I Speaker 1 (7:04) have fake newspaper articles. Speaker 4 (7:06) Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:07) I had all this stuff planned. And what's funny is, is ultimately I wanted to script like a three-part podcast. Oh. Which would have Speaker 2 (7:17) gone along perfect. Oh my Speaker 1 (7:18) gosh, yes. And, you know, I would be one of the guests and, you know, the detective would be a guest and some of my friends. And I'm just like, that would be fun. That'd be Speaker 4 (7:28) a Speaker 1 (7:28) great promo, too. It really would. Yeah. I still might do that one day. I was going to say, Speaker 2 (7:33) I feel like you could. Yeah. It is ways to get around. Speaker 4 (7:35) Just put some money aside for when you get sued, you know. Yeah. Speaker 1 (7:37) It's fine. That's Speaker 2 (7:39) all. Just be prepared. Because as someone who was around for that Blair Witch original marketing, like I try to tell, I've told Ash before. I'm Speaker 4 (7:47) so Speaker 2 (7:47) jealous. That was the best marketing. And we'll never get that kind of marketing back. Because it was like right in the beginning of like when the internet was exploding. I was going to say Speaker 1 (7:57) damn internet. But that's what it is. It's like too vast now. There was nothing but pluses back then. Yeah. Speaker 2 (8:01) And I remember looking at that Blair Witch website and being like, this is real. Like I'm looking at real footage. Oh, and when they did the documentary. Speaker 1 (8:10) Yeah. That sealed it for, you know, I mean, I'm gullible as it is. I was so gullible when I was Speaker 4 (8:14) a Speaker 1 (8:14) kid. I'm a believer. Like, you know, my friends will tell you, you know, it's like, Rich hasn't changed. He's still, you know, he thinks he's seen Bigfoot. You know, he believes in the Loch Ness Monster, even though he's never been anywhere near there. No, same, same. You're in your place. He's seen him. He sensed him. He believes in him. Yes. You're in a Speaker 2 (8:31) safe place here. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (8:32) I figured. Yeah. I love it. And even if I'm not, I'm like, I can't pretend I'm anything other. Remember the childlike enthusiasm we talked about? Yeah, let's guess. That's just me. That's just there. Speaker 2 (8:42) Hell yeah. Speaker 1 (8:43) So, yeah. So for me, it was natural. And I wanted to, you know, the documentary for Blair Witch kind of reinforced it. And I just thought, if I have all this supplemental material that Speaker 2 (8:54) goes Speaker 1 (8:54) beyond the photos in the book, I'm like, I feel like I could. And even my son, who's not the most, my oldest son, who's a writer, who's not the most logical of guys. Even he really early on was like, dad, you know, you can't do that. You're like going to drive down property values in Edgewood and stuff. you know, Mr. Mature, I'm like, I don't care. Speaker 2 (9:11) I feel like it's fine. I can do what I want. Speaker 1 (9:13) I'm like, but I'm going to scare everyone. I'm like, we're going to hear that people are scared to walk their dogs and stuff at night. Yeah. That's actually really Speaker 4 (9:20) fun, Speaker 1 (9:20) okay? Yes. Speaker 4 (9:22) Stop trying to put a damper on my thing. We're going to ruin people's peace. That's fun. Speaker 2 (9:25) Yes, Speaker 1 (9:26) exactly. I'm like, they're going to start a neighborhood watch because of me. You're Speaker 4 (9:30) like, have you heard of a prank, okay? Speaker 1 (9:32) Yes. I'm like, we can put on masks and scare people. Yeah, Speaker 4 (9:35) everybody's getting too serious. Speaker 1 (9:36) We'll get shot. I'm like, really? Speaker 2 (9:37) See, that's why things are. no fun anymore. It's true. You know, like, come on. I can, I feel like book, I think readers too would appreciate that kind of thing. Cause I feel like readers love that kind of stuff. Like any kind of like interactive, like really immersing themselves in the book. So I feel like it would work. I think so. Most of them, Speaker 1 (9:55) most of them had nothing, but you know, good memories from the book, but there were those who got. pissed off at me. Because they thought it was real? Because I tricked them. You Speaker 2 (10:04) tricked them? And I'm like, I thought that's what I'm supposed to do. And they saw fun in it. And Speaker 1 (10:06) it's also in the Speaker 2 (10:06) fiction section. Yeah. Like, it's not in the true crime section. Well, Speaker 1 (10:09) it Speaker 2 (10:09) says a novel. That Speaker 1 (10:10) showed me. You know, my editor. That was the Speaker 2 (10:12) first thing that I looked and I was like, oh, a novel. Yeah. That tells me it's not. Speaker 1 (10:16) My editor, who is amazing at his job and is just a really good guy, this guy named Ed Schlesinger, he told me really early on, he's like, we got to put this disclaimer in the front. Speaker 2 (10:26) Yeah. And Speaker 1 (10:27) I was like. you know, I'm like low maintenance, but this was like the only time I was like, no, I'm dying on the cell. I'm like, if you want it in there, you have to write it. So he did. Speaker 4 (10:37) You're like, here, everybody goes ruining my fun again. Speaker 1 (10:40) I did. I pouted, you know, it's like, I get this wonderful book sale for this weird book that I wrote about myself in and, and somehow I'm still pouting, but that was it. But yeah, I'm like, so what I want to say when they get mad at me is, Hey, It says a novel right on the front. It Speaker 2 (10:55) does. Speaker 1 (10:55) And there Speaker 2 (10:55) is a disclaimer. Speaker 1 (10:56) But what I knew from my own personal experience is no one reads those. No, that's true. Speaker 4 (11:01) They get right to the Speaker 1 (11:02) messy stuff. A note to the reader. And as soon as you start, this is a work. And you're like, whatever. Speaker 2 (11:08) Where does it really start? So I love the fact Speaker 1 (11:09) that you thought it. And lots of people said that. They're like, I knew it was a novel going in. But by chapter three, I was Googling. Speaker 2 (11:17) That was the thing. Because, again, you get it in like. the fiction section. You're not getting it in the true crime section. So you know where you got it from. Right. I knew where I got it from. Right. And I still was Googling being like, are there parts of this that's real? And like, I'm missing something. Like, that's how real it felt. Well, Speaker 1 (11:33) I love that. I love hearing that. And I tried to write it like a true crime book. You know, I tried to write it very, you know, a matter of fact in places because you're not trying to, you know, glamorize anything. Yeah, right. You're trying to, again, you know, lend dignity to what happened and the people who... who remain and all that. And yeah, I, so I tried to, there were times where, you know, I find myself getting a little too dramatic or fictiony and I'm like, dial it back. You gotta Speaker 2 (11:57) pull the pros back. Speaker 1 (11:58) So yeah, I mean, it, you know, who knows three books is enough, but you never know. I'm not giving away anything. All right. I Speaker 2 (12:06) love that. You Speaker 1 (12:07) never know. I just, I always hear people who are like, well, it was meant to be, you know, six and now there's 14. I'm like, I Speaker 2 (12:12) know Speaker 1 (12:12) it's probably somewhere right now rolling us eyes going no more. Speaker 2 (12:15) It's true. Speaker 2 (12:17) As someone who is also on book three in a series, everybody's like, there has to be another one. I'm like, I don't know. There has to be another one. I Speaker 4 (12:25) know. Speaker 2 (12:25) I'm not. I Speaker 1 (12:26) can't be done. I know. I can't leave it. No one said it's a trilogy like they did with mine. Which is, you know, them giving me a real strong hint. Rich, be done. You've Speaker 2 (12:35) got to be done here. Speaker 1 (12:36) I Speaker 2 (12:36) also loved The Little Things, especially in Becoming the Boogeyman. where it was like a text from Stephen King. And I was like, this is fun. I was like, this is fun to read. Again, I Speaker 1 (12:46) tried to make it as real life as possible. So it's like, it's my idiot friends who I love dearly who were texting me. It's my sisters. It's, you know, I make reference to my one sister, Nancy, who is, you know, who was not subtle. You know, there's never a single text. There's always four or six or 14. Speaker 4 (13:04) That's how I text you. It's just Speaker 1 (13:06) blocked. And then there's my friends who are yelling at me because I don't return phone calls. So I tried to, that was the most fun with becoming the boogeyman is I could drag myself through the ringer. I was like, the press was ripping me. You know, half of my hometown loved me. The other half was like, what a pain in the ass. He's probably in on this. You know, look, you bought a big house because of the blood money. I was just like, Speaker 2 (13:28) bring it on, you know. The Speaker 1 (13:31) internet hated me. So that was fun. Speaker 2 (13:34) That is fun. It's kind of like, it feels like it would be cathartic. Almost like exposure therapy. Yeah. Yeah. It Speaker 1 (13:39) was. I'm like, I know half these people are thinking it anyway. Speaker 2 (13:42) And you're like, you can't be as mean to me as I can be mean to me. Let me write it first. So I'll Speaker 1 (13:46) make Speaker 2 (13:46) it worse. Just Speaker 1 (13:47) sit Speaker 2 (13:47) back Speaker 1 (13:47) and watch. Yeah. Kind Speaker 2 (13:48) of Speaker 1 (13:48) brilliant. So, yeah. Speaker 2 (13:49) Well, Speaker 1 (13:50) and Speaker 2 (13:50) going back to like the boogeyman thing, like the boogeyman is one of those monsters that I think like everybody has a different idea of what the boogeyman is, but they all know what the boogeyman is. Where did your personal relationship with the boogeyman begin? Speaker 1 (14:05) Wow. Probably like as soon as I was old enough to, you know, have dreams and just I've always been. you know, I've always been the storyteller in the group. I've always been the one who really enjoyed scaring everyone. Like I wrote about, you know, walking up the gravel driveway of the Myers field. I really did tell everyone scary stories. And then I would wait for that strategic moment, look over my shoulder, scream and take off running. Speaker 2 (14:30) But Speaker 1 (14:30) the thing is, is the reason I told those stories, cause I was scared to death. So I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to be alone. Yeah. You know, it was a distraction. And, um, so yeah, the boogeyman was like, You know, my wife will tell you, you know, I still believe in the boogeyman. I, you know, the scene in, in, in, I guess it's chasing where I take out the garbage and I always talk about it where, and, and I just, just describe knowing Speaker 4 (14:55) I'm Speaker 1 (14:56) being watched. Someone's here. It is a vile alien feeling. And, um, I felt it at some point, probably a lot, taking out the garbage when I was young. So that's where that came from. And now we have this very long driveway. And I still hate taking the garbage out after dark. Oh, Speaker 2 (15:14) yeah. Speaker 1 (15:15) I hate it. You won't catch me doing that. So many hiding places. Speaker 4 (15:17) Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. I think everybody has that one chore, like one thing they have to do where you're like, I don't want to do that. Is Speaker 3 (15:24) something Speaker 4 (15:24) creepy going to happen when I do that? Yeah. Speaker 3 (15:26) Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:27) Like, I don't like going in our cellar. It's a 250-year-old house. I Speaker 3 (15:30) was just going Speaker 1 (15:30) to say Speaker 4 (15:30) that. And it Speaker 1 (15:31) has. So for the ceiling beams, it has complete trees. Oh. Speaker 2 (15:35) Complete 250-something. My house growing up had Speaker 1 (15:38) those, too. Yeah, and most of them are stripped of the bark, but there's still bark on some. And it's just like, again, you talk about an alien thing to a modern, you know, in a modern world. And it's dark, and it's stone walls, and I'm just like. It's like the Blair Witch Basement. Yeah. It's Speaker 4 (15:53) the Speaker 1 (15:53) perfect setting for something to happen. Someone's going to be standing in the corner. I always expect to see someone standing in the corner. Oh, Speaker 4 (15:57) I Speaker 1 (15:57) hate it. I hate it. Or little Speaker 2 (15:58) handprints all over the place. Speaker 1 (15:59) There are handprints. No. And names written on this one cubbyhole that's like to the outside. Yeah, I don't know why I live there. Oh, Speaker 4 (16:08) that's freaky. Speaker 1 (16:09) Yeah. It's Speaker 4 (16:11) freaky, but it's fun. That's what we love, you know? It's true. That's why you live there. Yeah. And that's why you Speaker 2 (16:15) write good, scary books. Speaker 1 (16:16) Well, I think that's part of it is that I still am a believer. Yeah. I'm still scared. And it's to their great humor. Speaker 2 (16:23) Yeah. And my older Speaker 1 (16:25) son, Billy, the writer and the filmmaker, he's like me. Yeah. You know, I always tell the story of the first time we watched Paranormal Activity, which some people think is dumb. Speaker 4 (16:32) No, I hate when people say that. We love Paranormal Activity. It's so good. Speaker 1 (16:35) We started watching it at night. opposite sides of the sofa. And this is a pretty typical experience. And as that movie went on, we got closer and closer. And we're halfway through. And I mean, we are snug. And at some point, we kind of looked at each other and we said, let's finish this tomorrow in the daylight. Speaker 2 (16:52) And we're like, good night, good night. Speaker 1 (16:54) And we both just want our separate ways. Whereas my youngest son is more like my wife, Kara, very practical. So they get to the end of a movie like that. And they're like, that was kind of dumb. And we're just like, what were you watching? Speaker 2 (17:07) You're like, I'm scared shitless. So it's Speaker 1 (17:09) a good thing that I do write what I write because I do think it helps. Oh, Speaker 2 (17:13) yeah. Speaker 1 (17:14) And especially when I'm writing with a sense of nostalgia as a kid because I'm still, you know, I am still that big kid in so many ways and especially the imagination. And, yeah, I hope I never get that educated out of me. Well, at this point, I think it's too late. Speaker 4 (17:31) I Speaker 1 (17:31) think I'm a lost cause. I see my wife nodding. Honestly, Speaker 2 (17:35) I feel that way too. I'm like, I am what I am at this point. Yeah, you Speaker 1 (17:37) gotta accept yourself. Kindred spirits know. It's like, we're gonna circle the wagons because we're all weirdos. As Speaker 4 (17:43) soon as you guys stepped in, you started talking about your haunted house. I was like, oh, you're in good company. Yeah, we get Speaker 2 (17:47) it. Speaker 4 (17:47) These are our people. Yeah, Speaker 1 (17:48) we definitely get it. And you sense it, you know. You sense it when you're talking to someone who's like super practical and all that and they're just like looking at you and they're like, but Rich, you know, there's no such thing. And I just stop them. I'm like, no, I don't. Speaker 2 (17:59) You're like, I don't know that. Neither do you. Exactly. None of us know. Speaker 1 (18:02) I'm like, well, tell me about the afterlife, Mr. Know-It-All. Yeah, right? Speaker 2 (18:05) That's Speaker 1 (18:06) the Speaker 2 (18:06) thing, because I have both sides of the brain where I really want to disprove certain things. My brain wants to do Speaker 1 (18:13) that. Speaker 2 (18:13) You're molding Speaker 1 (18:14) a scully all in one. She really is. I love that. That's really awesome. Best way Speaker 2 (18:18) to describe it. You are. I'll take that. So I always want to prove it wrong, but I never can. And so I'm like, so I'm not going to sit here and say that I know because I don't. It's because you have that science Speaker 4 (18:29) -y side to Speaker 2 (18:30) you, I think. Yeah, Speaker 4 (18:31) I Speaker 2 (18:31) want to figure out why things happen. Yeah. Speaker 4 (18:33) I Speaker 2 (18:33) get that. Nine times out of ten, I can't. Speaker 4 (18:35) Me, I just accept it for what it is. Speaker 2 (18:37) That's what I love. Yeah. Ash is just like, yep. That's Speaker 4 (18:41) haunted and I don't know why, but okay. And I don't want to hear Speaker 2 (18:43) anything else. That's it. I try to disprove and if I can't, then I'll say, okay, I don't know. That's a ghost, I Speaker 4 (18:50) guess. That's it. Nine out of ten times. It's a ghost. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I can't prove it most of the time. Right. I'm Speaker 1 (18:57) with you. And I'm still, I'm still again, cause I'm a guy, I think I'm dumb enough to, to still poke the hornet's nest. I mean, we did, we did like a Gettysburg ghost tour and I'm the dumb one. I want to do Speaker 2 (19:07) that. I do too. Took Speaker 1 (19:09) one of my son's friends and he was just terrified. So at some point I decided to be a wise ass and I'm like, I started like. calling down the spirits to take over his body. No. See, Speaker 4 (19:19) you're the one in Speaker 1 (19:20) the Speaker 4 (19:20) group that I'd be like, you got to go. Speaker 2 (19:22) I'm the Speaker 1 (19:22) first one to die by. You got to get out of here. Don't worry. I'll be dead soon enough. You got to Speaker 2 (19:26) go. Speaker 1 (19:27) But yeah, I had him praying in a corner. Oh my gosh. He was so scared. Stop it. I'm like, I had Speaker 2 (19:33) to Speaker 1 (19:33) apologize to his father and the whole thing. I'm like, he probably broke out in a rash and the whole thing. Sorry Speaker 2 (19:38) I traumatized yourself. Because I Speaker 1 (19:39) was like using, you know, I'm like, come down. I summon you. Take over. Gavin. The next thing I know, he's praying, and I'm just like, okay, I'm going Speaker 4 (19:47) too Speaker 2 (19:47) far. You're Speaker 4 (19:48) like, Speaker 2 (19:48) shit, sorry. My work here is done. All right. Gotta go. Speaker 1 (19:51) Yeah. Oh, Speaker 2 (19:52) that's great. Now, growing up, did you have a local legend or a local boogeyman that you remember? A lot of small towns have that. A little bit. Speaker 1 (20:00) I mean, I wrote about the guy called the Rubber Band Man and chasing the boogeyman. Speaker 2 (20:04) Yep. Speaker 1 (20:04) People ask me if that was real when I hid inside the playground tunnel and the smell, and I'm like, you know what? I think it was real because that was the thing. Chasing the boogeyman. And everything, I wrote about everything as I remember it, Speaker 2 (20:17) except Speaker 1 (20:18) for the murders, which I mean, and everyone's names are all my true friends' names. I like my parents' names. It was just, it was a memoir in a lot of ways, which was, for me, was so much fun to write because, you know, my parents had been gone for quite a while. But, you know, for the months that I spent on the book, they were. Speaker 2 (20:35) Yeah, you bring them back. Speaker 1 (20:36) And I was in my old childhood bedroom after graduating, waiting to. To get married. And all my friends, you know, when I was writing about younger days, we were still, you know, the Hanson Road Boys. We were all just still scattered around the neighborhood. I loved that. Instead of the country. And I'm doing an event soon and all the Hanson Road Boys are coming. Oh, hell yeah. That's awesome. I actually advertised it. I'm like, the Hanson Road Boys will be there. Oh, that's Speaker 2 (20:59) good. Speaker 1 (20:59) And people are going to recognize them as half of the photos. Speaker 2 (21:02) Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:03) But the neat thing is, is I told them, I said, you're going to be signing probably more books than I am. Because people for years have said, I want to meet him. It's so and so real. So the most disappointment from the first book was that Carly Albright wasn't real. Speaker 2 (21:16) Yeah. My Speaker 1 (21:17) sidekick. Okay. And she's, you know, she's this very strong-willed woman, very wise and kind of keeps me straight, doesn't put up with my shit. Speaker 4 (21:25) So it's Kara. Essentially Kara. Speaker 1 (21:27) And I grew up with three older sisters. There you go. So I'm like, there you go. That's how, you know. Like Speaker 4 (21:33) an amalgamation of everybody. Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:34) I knew like. fashion stuff and i you know i listened to like the bay city rollers and the bgs way before everybody else because i had sisters yeah Speaker 2 (21:42) you Speaker 1 (21:42) know um and i also knew you know care will say but i also knew the proper way to treat the female yeah yeah um older Speaker 2 (21:54) sisters will teach you absolutely well yeah Speaker 1 (21:57) so but but yeah i that was the fun of the book is i is i got to write about everybody and and they all really people always say i did were they okay with it? And I'm like, yeah, of course I okay. Oh, they Speaker 2 (22:06) were probably psyched. Oh yeah. Well, they're Speaker 1 (22:08) still mad about the pictures. They still, I want it. I want more of a closeup in the next one. You can't see my face. No kidding. I'm like, everyone loved it except the, the lovely woman to my left, Kara, my wife who loathed it. She's very behind the scenes and just, you know, she doesn't even like, like if I post pictures on Facebook, I have to get her written approval pretty much. I love it. She just doesn't. You know, she's not into that, which is fine. But she hated being written about. I'm just like, it's the only way I know how to tell the story. I got away with it for the first book. Yeah. She was young and it was so far in the past. But then I had to break it to her that the second book was set in modern day. You're like, Speaker 2 (22:46) you're in this a lot. Speaker 1 (22:46) And you're in this a ton. Like, Speaker 2 (22:48) you're a big part. Let me read it. Speaker 1 (22:51) Yes. And she's just like, well, I'm not going to read it. You know, that way when people. signings and stuff asked me about, I can just say, I haven't read it. You Speaker 4 (22:57) can just say, I don't know. I actually don't know. I bleed the fifth. I Speaker 1 (23:00) just live Speaker 4 (23:01) this life. I don't know. Speaker 1 (23:02) And I'm like, but, you know, I don't want to say a spoiler. I'm like, but you're integral to the plot in many ways. And I'm like, you know, the first book I always say is like a love story to my hometown and youth Speaker 2 (23:14) and Speaker 1 (23:15) my family. And Speaker 2 (23:16) it feels that way. Yeah. I'm like, the Speaker 1 (23:18) second book is, in many ways, is a love story to Kara. You know, and just my place in the world and how she's helped me, you know, move through it. And then I'm like, you know, the third book is kind of all of it. You know, it brings the friends back into it. It carries a huge part. My sons are more of a part of it. I loved Speaker 2 (23:36) that. It like built upon itself. I loved that. Speaker 1 (23:39) Yeah. And it was, again, it was very natural. I mean, that's the plus of writing these books is they are a lot of fun to write, even though I'm writing about myself because I don't. I would always tease them. I'm like, yeah, I just wrote a scene in which I ran 10 miles and then I washed the car and I power washed the siding. And they're looking at me and they're Speaker 3 (23:58) like, Speaker 1 (23:58) who's Speaker 3 (23:58) that? Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:00) And I'm like, I'm pretty much a Navy SEAL in this book. And they're like, people are going to know that you actually look at your steps on your phone and you're happy when it's like, I walked 600 steps today. Speaker 4 (24:12) That's very relatable. It really is. And Speaker 1 (24:14) I would threaten Kara. She'd be like, you know. her usual sassy self and i'd be like you know what i think i'm gonna go upstairs and write a love scene real Speaker 2 (24:21) quick i'm Speaker 1 (24:23) gonna write a love scene and she'd be like yeah well you're not you know Speaker 2 (24:25) like it'll be a work of fiction but Speaker 1 (24:30) again you know to look back at particularly the first book and be like all those things happened except for the murders yeah Speaker 2 (24:37) um Speaker 1 (24:38) And some people are still disappointed that the murders didn't happen. You're like, well, you're like, sorry about that, I guess. I'm like, I know you don't mean that. Speaker 2 (24:44) Yeah. You're like, sorry. I get it. Speaker 1 (24:46) Sorry, Speaker 2 (24:47) young girls weren't murdered. People say crazy things. You never know. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:51) That was a really long winded way of answering that. Yeah. The boogeyman has always been a part of my life. And, you know, we had, we had our haunted house. We had the Myers house. We had our, our legends. There was definitely a good side of the tracks and the bad side of the tracks and the whole thing. And, and we just, you know, I was always aware of the fact that, and even before I read Stephen King, but especially after I read Salem's Lot at an early age and some of those others. That was one of my first. And I was surrounded by books. You know, the youngest of five kids, my parents both read. So I was reading like Sidney Sheldon because of my sisters and like reading the sex scenes out loud to my friends. And being like, oh my God. I was like the hero Speaker 4 (25:28) in that regard. Speaker 1 (25:29) Yeah, of course. Speaker 2 (25:31) But Speaker 1 (25:31) reading Salem's Lot and a lot of those small town novels, it really made it easy to imagine, you know, the innocence of walking home from sledding at night, but the lights are on in the houses. And it was first for a warped mind like me, it was really easy to take that next step and be like, you know, there's stuff going on behind these windows that we know nothing about. Oh, yeah. And Speaker 2 (25:52) it can be anything. Yes. Yes. And then Speaker 1 (25:54) you get introduced to serial killers. Yeah. And, you know. That kind of thing. And you're just like, you don't even have to have suspend the belief of vampires. No, not at all. I was fine with because I believe in all. Yeah. But people. Yeah. The idea that you could be standing in line at 7-Eleven to get a slurping and the guy behind you could have killed six people rocked my world. Yeah. Yeah. I'm constantly Speaker 2 (26:18) still thinking of that. Speaker 1 (26:19) Me too. At Speaker 2 (26:19) all times. Speaker 4 (26:20) Oh, Speaker 2 (26:20) I Speaker 4 (26:20) think of that. Yeah. Yeah. Grocery shopping. I'm like, who's Speaker 1 (26:22) a Speaker 4 (26:22) murderer? Yeah. Speaker 2 (26:23) Like somebody could be. Somebody said some weird shit. Yeah. And odds are, you know, odds are someone's done that many people in a building. Yeah. Speaker 1 (26:30) You go to a concert and two people there are killed. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Which Speaker 2 (26:33) is horrifying. Yeah, it is. Cause we're just like living among them. Just whatever. And I think that's why like small, like you do, cause obviously you grew up in that town. So it's like you did like the small town vibe so well. And I feel like it lends itself really well to adding something. So. nefarious like murder into it and why do you think like it works so well to add like murder into a small town i Speaker 1 (26:58) just think it's the it's you know the first book for me was about that loss of innocence not only in myself but in my you know i described that's the reason i opened the book with so much history about the place yeah Speaker 2 (27:09) is Speaker 1 (27:10) because i think for a lot of people particularly when you're younger It's your safe place. Yeah. It's like it's the expansion of your home. That's why they say home invasions are so traumatic. Yeah. Because if you're not safe here, where the hell are you safe? Exactly. Speaker 2 (27:22) It's your bubble. So you can expand that Speaker 1 (27:24) to the wagon wheel of your town. And when you're young, it's like that's your world. Speaker 2 (27:28) Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:29) That's the boundaries. Speaker 2 (27:30) You Speaker 1 (27:31) know, when I was that age. You know, hell, I didn't know anything about Dover, Delaware. It was an hour and a half away. My world ended at the train tracks. Yeah, there's nothing beside that. Until you get your license and even then a little bit after that. So I think it's just that contrast of this is supposed to be where you're safe. And I think that applies to, you know, you're a young couple. You move into this suburb. You bring your newborn. Speaker 2 (27:56) The Speaker 1 (27:56) thing you're supposed to be most nervous about is strapping. your baby in a car seat driving to the drugstore. That's terrifying. Yeah. Yes. Kara would come home from, you know, work some days and I, you know, the baby. where Billy would have like three onesies on because I forgot to take the other onesie off after I changed the diaper and I put a new one on. It's Speaker 2 (28:16) scary. Speaker 1 (28:16) She's just like, Speaker 4 (28:16) what are you doing? And I'm like, I was nervous. I don't know. I think he's cold. How can I be trusted to have a baby? Speaker 1 (28:22) You know, I'm still shoving chocolate in my face at night when I should be going to sleep and I'm like, well, you can't sleep because you have so much sugar in you, dummy. You're Speaker 4 (28:30) like, why am I an adult? I'm like, but I'm Speaker 1 (28:32) a Speaker 4 (28:32) dad. I'm Speaker 2 (28:33) like, what? Speaker 4 (28:33) I'm cosplaying as an adult, okay? Speaker 2 (28:35) We did that a lot. Speaker 1 (28:36) How did Speaker 4 (28:37) this happen? Speaker 1 (28:37) Me Speaker 2 (28:38) and my husband had twins first. like Speaker 4 (28:40) right out the gate. And Speaker 2 (28:41) so the second they were born, both of us were like, what have we done? Oh my God, we have to keep them alive. This is scary. Speaker 1 (28:50) And one Speaker 2 (28:52) of them was very, very tiny. She was like five pounds when she was born. So she Speaker 4 (28:57) was like a little bird. Speaker 2 (28:58) And putting her in the car seat, we were like, and I remember the nurses come in and they like do the thing where they're like, you have to put them in the car seat and you have to know how and they can't tell you. how to do it you're just and i was like but i didn't study for this test i don't Speaker 1 (29:11) know Speaker 2 (29:11) And we were like so scared of putting this tiny little thing in there. They're so fragile. I won't touch Speaker 1 (29:16) friends and their babies until they get to a certain age. I get it. I'm terrified. Yeah, I did it with my own eye. That's your property, okay? I see strangers like in the grocery store park and I'm like, support the neck, support the neck. You're not doing it right. Speaker 2 (29:28) You know? Speaker 1 (29:29) It's so scary. And it informed everything. It informed my work back then. All of a sudden, everything I was writing about was about the fragility of the world around us. So I think that that's my... my answer for the small town thing is it's just supposed to be, all you're supposed to be worried about is your baby in the car seat and getting home in time to watch, you know, I'm going to date myself, but you know, Beverly Hills, 90210, whatever it was back in the day. Speaker 2 (29:55) There we go. Speaker 1 (29:56) And instead, you know, there are neighborhood watch groups and they're talking about doing a curfew and there's cops everywhere. And you're just like, this shouldn't be happening. Yeah. Like I should Speaker 2 (30:07) be able to walk down the street and Speaker 1 (30:08) not worry. Speaker 2 (30:09) Yeah. Which, you Speaker 1 (30:10) know, in my youth, I could, you know, we spent the night with each other at each other's houses and we snuck out windows at midnight and we went down to 7-Eleven and we got Slurpees and, and the whole thing. I mean, my friends love telling stories about, about that and including the one where we all played poker and then my buddy won all of our money when he was sleeping. We took a flashlight and tweezers and we opened his pocket. We flashed the flashlight and stole all his money. He had one from us. Went to 7-Eleven. He got to the counter, had all this stuff on the counter and no money to pay for it. We were demons. Speaker 2 (30:41) That's friendship. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 (30:42) He still tells that story. But yeah, we did those things and it was safe. Speaker 2 (30:47) Yeah. Yeah. You know, we were scared. Speaker 1 (30:49) I mean, my, again, my dumb ass was probably talking about the boogeyman. Yeah. Or what, you know. I heard that, you know, the rubber band man, which I think the legend was that he only came out in the daytime, which was weird. But, you know, I'm sure I was like, my sister told me that they started seeing him at night now. Oh, of course. Speaker 2 (31:05) So, you Speaker 1 (31:05) know, we're scared to death, of course. We can't have a Speaker 2 (31:07) safe time. But Speaker 1 (31:08) again, it was like, you know, it was more like riding a roller coaster. It's like you're scared, but somewhere in the back of your mind, you knew you were going to be okay. You're going to put your head down on your own pillow. Yeah. And it's fun to be scared. It's like a horror movie Speaker 2 (31:19) or going to a haunted house. You're like. You're in it for the thrill. I'm Speaker 1 (31:22) going to get the Speaker 2 (31:22) feeling, but like I know I'm okay here. Yes. Even Speaker 1 (31:24) though as soon as I get in the haunted house, I'm like, I'm going to die. Speaker 2 (31:27) Yeah. Speaker 1 (31:27) Because that's what happened in Funhouse. No, Speaker 4 (31:29) we say that every time we enter any kind of haunted house. We're like, what if this is the one where the person actually wants to kill us all? Speaker 2 (31:35) It's the chainsaw. The Speaker 4 (31:36) chainsaws. Anytime Speaker 2 (31:38) they chase you out of those places with a chainsaw, I'm like, what if this is that one time? Exactly. That they keep the chain on and this is just like. And John always Speaker 4 (31:44) thinks we're crazy, but we're like, what if? Speaker 2 (31:46) Yeah. You know? I'm Speaker 4 (31:47) like, I Speaker 1 (31:47) don't Speaker 2 (31:47) know. Speaker 1 (31:47) That's it. I mean. People. That's why I love Stephen King. You know, he's still, you know, he's still, he's almost 80 and he's still, I know he still believes in the hand that's going to creep out from under your bed. Oh, I do too. You don't hang that. You don't hang your bare leg over. No.