What To Do If You Get Laid Off: Employment Attorney Ryan Stygar on Keyboard Tracking, Return to Office and Negotiating Severance

Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin

Employment attorney Ryan Stygar joins Money Rehab to discuss workers' rights, navigating layoffs, and protecting yourself in toxic workplaces. He emphasizes the importance of documentation, knowing your legal rights, and maintaining self-worth despite workplace challenges.

Key takeaways

• Document everything at work to build a strong paper trail.
• Employers often have hidden agendas—don’t trust HR to have your back.
• Discussing pay is protected under the National Labor Relations Act.

Transcript preview

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Probability percentage is subject to decrease. Do not let your boss or a toxic workplace dictate your self-worth. You deserve good things, and if the workplace can't recognize that, I hope you find the courage to leave it. So I'll tell it to you straight. There are some big challenges in the workforce right now. Playoffs in the beginning of this year were 118 percent higher than in 2025. accelerating and despite legal protections, workplace discrimination against new mothers is still very much a thing. That sounds really bad, but there is some good news. You have more protections than you think. And today I'm joined by Employment Attorney Ryan Stager to tell you what they are and how to use them. Ryan's core thesis in his new book, Get It in writing, is that most workers lose money and rights, not because the law fails them, but because they didn't even know the law existed and they didn't document anything. So today Ryan unpacks I'm seeing just a month regardless of how long you've been there. It's a pretty big, fuck you from the employer that it used to be someone who put in 20 years could expect, you know, quite a few months of severance. If you have a paper trail, we can look back at the last year to your employment and say, is there anything here that gives us leverage and the negotiation? Were you an exceptionally high performer? Did you have maybe some legal? possibly against them that they should be aware of it's illegal to punish someone for discussing their pay. I've. I've. I've. I've. I've That violates the National Labor Relations Act and in that act it specifically protects your right to engage in what we call concerted activities for mutual protection and welfare and that includes talks about compensation and work conditions. And the common interview questions that are totally illegal. This role involves marketing to millennials. Are you a millennial? I don't like that question. It's time for some money rehab. I appreciate it. It really is rewarding work. It's exciting having been a blue collar worker before I was a firefighter working my way up in my career to get to where I'm at now. I've seen all the instances at work where people do feel small. They feel powerless. They feel like all these employers and businesses have all the control and you have none. And I believed that at one point too. So it's really nice to get to stand up for people and say, no, no, you can have some control. You can have a voice at work. And if someone to be here talking about this. Oh my God I wish I knew you two decades ago when I got let go from my job at CNN. I'll never forget I got an email from HR and also PR at the time because I was always the HR email you see that in your inbox and just you get that sting in your belly like why do they want to talk to me? Well the crazy part is that I didn't know I was in my 20s and so I thought okay this is just a meeting I didn't know it was the doom HR that really does you in. You didn't know yet. I didn't know. They were still fresh in the workforce and didn't know that unsolicited emails from HR it's not a surprise party. It's usually a bit of an ambush. Well you say they are not your friends because I also knew these people too so I thought okay well we've talked we've you know connected. You were friendly with them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and then I then I then I realize they're not your friend. Yeah and look I'm not saying every HR person is twirling their mustn their must over Nicole today. You know, it's they work for the employer. Their job is compliance and protecting the employer from liability, protecting them from risk. And that means they're protecting them from you. So a lot of people think, oh, the HR lady, she's nice, she's got a nice office, she has a couch, she lets me express my feelings that some HR people take a sort of counselor role in some businesses. But you can't forget unless you are signing that person's paycheck, they're not on your side. And when you ask them to take your side. And when you ask them to take your side. And when you ask them to take your side. over the employers you're asking them to put their career on the line and that's just not gonna happen so I'm not saying HR is evil I'm not saying they're necessarily out to get you all the time although that happens but they're not your friend you are your friend and you need to figure out how to advocate for yourself and not trust HR to do it for you yeah we're not knocking on HR people for sure HR people are the most lovely but their loyalty to your point is with their employer that is By the way, for anyone says I go a little hard on HR, remember where I come from, I'm a workers rights lawyer, by the time I'm in a deposition with an HR rep, something has gone terribly wrong. I typically end up going against people who did cross a line, you know? I'm not saying all people do that. And I would note for the record that my little sister is a HR executive and I love her very much. And we have wonderful conversations at family events. I would love to be a fly on the wall of those. It's. It's pretty funny. It's pretty funny. I saw your video. I need to let a guy go and here's what's going on and I'll be like okay off the record here's how you do that the right way you know so that no one's rights are violated so you're not destroying someone there there's a sort of cadence that we want to see for a proper termination so what is the right way and then what is the wrong way well I'll tell you my least favorite way is obviously an illegal termination that's always gonna rub me the wrong way but let's say it's say it's legal termination it's legal. I do And the first time they get any sense you're unhappy with them is when you fire them. So first conversation, you never gave them an opportunity to correct it. You never said, hey, Nicole. Yeah, you're missing your cover letters on the TPS reports. We're doing the cover sheet on the TPS reports now. Where's the corrective action? Where's the paper trail? That helps everybody. So I do get irritated when a boss just bottles it in, doesn't say anything, and then fires you and that's the first time you learned there was an issue. Give people a chance. Give people a chance. said you like when it's legal yes co sign on that hard co sign on that what's an example of something that doesn't sound illegal but might be in a termination that's a really good question because I think we can pick out the obvious things you know you get pregnant and then three weeks later suddenly you're fired never had an issue before little suss right but there's another one that's a little more common and people don't realize it's illegal have you ever had you ever had like an employee handbook and they have you have you ever had a in there that says discussing wages, discussing bonuses and compensation, it's private and it's a fireable offense. This is confidential information. You ever see that? Dude, who reads the employee handbook? I know a guy. I do. Party of one. I've read quite a few. Well, what happens is a lot of companies have this policy. You're not to discuss pay and they tell you it's confidential. They tell you it's unprofessional. It's illegal to punish someone for discussing their pay. Well, I go out there and I go out there and I tell people. people this too and there's so many good reasons to do it but there's been this culture in the United States for so long that it's no one's business what I make. It's taboo. You're just going to make people jealous you're going to create problems and I've seen people get fired for it. But that violates the National Labor Relations Act and in that act it specifically protects your right to engage in what we call concerted activities for mutual protection and welfare and that includes talks about compensation and work conditions. people to talk about their comp with their colleagues if they're comfortable or their family or friends, then they can't come back to me and say like, well I heard it on money rehab to talk about my comp and I got fired because they shouldn't have been fired for that. So here's the thing. It's like a stop sign. The stop sign doesn't put up a magic force field and note like a cartoon no car can cross it. Instead what that stop sign does is says hey this is the rule. You ought to stop here and if you choose to cross that line, for a ticket or something to that effect. So you should be mindful about the culture you are in and who you can trust. I think these are great conversations to have, but do be mindful that the employer may try to do something unlawful. And if that happens you can have recourse under the NLRA, but a paper trail helps you a lot. And we can talk more about that on that show. I've got tons of tips on how to create paper trails that protect you. Okay, let's definitely talk about that because you say that you should create your own and your own diary of sorts. What do you mean by that? Just a journal of what's going on at work? That could work. So specifically what I say is from day one you should create some kind of, I like a Google Drive, a box folder or even a physical folder, although I prefer digital, and this is your work folder. You put all of your onboarding documents in there. If you have a performance review, good or bad, put it in there. If you have an email that affects your pay, your work conditions, your work conditions, your work conditions, your core duties, your core duties, your core duties, your it has a key deadline, something like that. Save it as a PDF and keep that in there. And once a week you should have a check-in with yourself, just five, ten minutes. Hey, any important documents for the record here, any important emails for the record here. And as you build that over time, you're not only more organized. You'll be better at your job because you can reference back to key events, which makes you credible, which is good for your job. But also, God forbid if something goes wrong, you've got your paper trail ready to go ready to go put on the pip after they've been fired after they've had some kind of unlawful suspension and then they try to scramble and get the documents but I'm telling you Nicole that's like trying to learn to box after you've already been punched in the face it's a little late and you're on the back foot now and some people might say well look I'm so busy I don't have time for all this look think of yourself like an entrepreneur you're you're selling your services to this company any entrepreneur would have a weekly check-in with themselves and say what are my key documents going on. You should take your career that seriously. And for five to ten minutes, it's so much more protection. It's worth it. I know nobody thinks that the worst case scenario is ever going to happen. And I talk, unfortunately, over the last year, after losing my homes in the LA fires, you know, and needing all of those documents in that scenario. That was, you know, I wish I had done all of the stuff in advance. It's the same type of mentality that I now bring to these types of conversations, granted. I am my own boss. I am my own boss. about these paper trails that you can create before you actually need them, it's hard to get in the habit of doing it when there isn't a disaster or you aren't reacting to something. How do you get proactive in that mindset? Yeah, well quickly, are you guys doing okay now? Because talk about Rising Phoenix. I mean, no one can really see what's outside of this house, but it's a really gorgeous home. Thank you. So, well done. I'm sure that's really shocking to be in that position. And then suddenly you need all this paperwork all this paperwork, all this paperwork, totally and I didn't read any of the documents that you know the equivalent of what you're alluding to which would be my insurance documents and all of my rights that I now know Well you're here you're still standing so snaps for you Thank you that's brutal to go through something like that well thank you for your previous firefighting Contribution oh thank you. It's been a long time it was a lifetime ago, but I will say it was one of the highest honors of my life was working for Cal fire California and I learned a lot about work ethic teamwork leadership but also I did have some tough work experiences there that we cover in the book but to go back to your original question yes you should be proactive with your paper trail and do not think oh I work hard I don't create trouble nothing bad is gonna happen to me two points to that first of all good employees get fired every day that's why I have a job I'm not a you totally had it coming termination lawyer I'm a wrongful termination lawyer I'm a wrongful termination lawyer I'm a wrongful termination lawyer I step in when someone who did not deserve it gets fired and they weren't expecting it either. So you should be prepared for that worst case. Second, this paper trail protects you every day. Someone says, Nicole, hey, you drop the ball on that client deliverable. We told you it was due today. Where is it? Wait a minute. Go back to the paper trail. You said it was due a week from now and here's the document that proves it. So where's the miscommunication here? You can protect yourself without that worst case. You see what I'm saying there? Well, might motivate people to do this is understanding that an employer has been through this rodeo before and so the paper trail concept is already being prepared on the other side. Oh yes you better believe your employer has a paper trail on you and that's not you know nefarious I'm not saying that they're staking out your house taking pictures of you on your sick days although that's not the craziest thing I've seen it happen before. Yeah when when you're in a workers comp case especially they will send people to make sure you're really is hurt. you say it it it's a joke that will go around online but this really does happen where someone will make a workers comp claim say oh my back is hurt I can't work I need you know benefits whatever it is and then the insurance company sends their investigator out and says that's really interesting we got you got you surfing on Saturday and you seem fine and then you squatted 400 pounds and now you're here with a neck brace on so it gives don't do fraud don't do fraud which camera can I look at don't do fraud don't do fraud bad, don't do it. But yeah, surveillance from employers is not unheard of. It happens. I'm not saying that they're spying on your every move, but you better believe they have a paper trail that's tracking your performance and everything that's happened. But what you were just saying, like you're getting an email that the cover sheet wasn't there or the this or that, you're getting that email. So because you're getting it from the other side, they're creating what that story could be in the case of needing to let you go. So, so they have. hand in a number of places. First, they have a whole department dedicated to keeping a paper trail on you, which is why you should have your own. They control the email server. They control the intra office chats, all of those things. So one mistake I see people make is they go, oh man, I got fired. It was after I requested an accommodation for my pregnancy. Everything was fine before that, but they locked me out of my email when they fired me. So I need, Ryan, go subpoena and get the email. I can do that, but we're already starting on the backfoot on the backfoot. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, evidence, they're not supposed to do that. But it happens. Important documents you need that prove your case can disappear. So what are you supposed to do? Send it to email? I love seeing it to a personal account. I love saving it to a hard drive you control. Even I had a client just take a picture of the email. That works too. Anything that shows these key events are happening. Because otherwise you're leaving the whole narrative in their hands. They control that email server, they control those chats. So if you want to have equal footing with them, make them. saving key communications. But not going overboard and excellent I love the nuance yeah I'm not saying save every email like that first of all that's going to be overwhelming just the key thing so again it's going to be stuff that materially affects your your pay your work conditions your schedule your duties things like that anything like a conversation about a conversation about a dispute with your pay those are the kind of things we save yeah just the nuance is super important because some work you're if you're putting everything in a personal g-mail then perhaps there's trade secrets or there's other stuff that you could screw yourself inadvertently very well put so you know that is one thing that I have seen come up you need to be mindful of that so if someone's sending out an email and there's a work around to this so if someone sends out an email and it's got a bunch of confidential trade secret stuff but you're like hey this is important another way you can do is just your own documentation a follow-up note to your manager that I see you have for me these are the due dates that's fine because you're extracting the core information without including the trade secrets and the confidentiality I'm a big big fan of the recap email recaps we love recaps thank you so much for chatting really nice to talk about x y z I'm glad we're on the same page a blah blah blah I hope you're on the same page doing the paper jokes a lot of times we're not if you're not then you call ride so in the last couple of years as you've seen We've seen some public terminations after employees have made political statements on social media and on another show that I host, Help Wanted, with the editor and chief of entrepreneur magazine, we talk about this stuff a lot and I was surprised to hear that that's not illegal. Yeah, so things are tense right now, am I exaggerating? Things are pretty tense right now and people have a lot to say, heck I'm one of them. You know, I'm on the internet every day sharing my big opinion about things. surprise to learn that an employer can fire you over a social media post. And a lot of times people say the punishment didn't fit the crime, they'll say, I just re-posted a video. I didn't, it wasn't even my speech. I reposted something that Tucker Carlson said and I got fired. That's not fair, doesn't it affect my First Amendment rights? And the answer is, no, not really. The First Amendment protects you being constrained by the government. Yes. people in the back. So look, our constitution. No, no, I have free speech in this country. Sort of. So you know there are things that we do as adults where we do check some of our rights at the door. That does happen. Another example would be your Fourth Amendment rights. Some people will say hey my office went through my work drawer looking for a document is does that violate my Fourth Amendment right? No, they control the space and you do check some of those privacy rights at the door. That said with the First Amendment. you and it constrains the government it says the government's not gonna walk you up and throw you in prison because you criticized one of the leaders at least we hope things stay that way so if you say something the employer doesn't like they're a private party they're not constrained by the first amendment now there's some forms of speech that would be protected we talked about discussing pay and work conditions conversations about unionization collective bargaining a complaint to your manager saying hey we were at the company happy hour with Ted and he was getting really handsy with me and it made me uncomfortable. That would be a protected form of speech. So I'm not saying none of what you say is protected, but a lot of your big opinions on politics, current events. I used to say block your boss, I still think that's a really good idea. You need to be mindful that your employer is not constrained by the First Amendment. Okay, so to be extra, extra clear, the First Amendment protects you from the government. Yes. shutting you down. Yes. for saying something, but not from a company who might have morals clauses. I mean, I've signed employment contracts. Oh my gosh, yeah, I despise morality clauses. I think a lot of times they're very silly. It's often it's an owner just playing tiny tyrant in my opinion. My values have to be your values, which I don't think is fair. But yeah, the first amendment, if you're a private company and you see something that your employee is doing and you don't like, most jobs in this country are at will. are at will, will employment. If they don't like what you're saying, they can let you go. What's the one state? Do you guess? If you were to guess, what would you say is the one state that's not at will? Texas. That is so funny. I love that you went straight to Texas. It's actually Montana. Okay. Montana is the only state, the last time I