281. "We have 4 kids and nearly $1M in debt. Are we screwed?”

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Ramit Sethi sits down with Rebecca and Matthew, a couple married for sixteen years with four children, to confront a severe financial crisis involving nearly one million dollars in debt and highly inconsistent business income. Through a detailed transactional

Key takeaways

• Rebecca and Matthew face $633,500 in immediate debt plus $350,000 in accruing law school loans, bringing their total liability close to $1 million despite an $185,000 gross annual income.
• Their fixed costs consume 84% of their income, leaving virtually zero room for savings or investments while they continue spending on vacations and hotels.

Main topics

• Couple's debt crisis and net worth reality check
• Inconsistent self-employed income and cash flow management

Notable quotes

"Despair."

Conclusion

The episode delivers a stark reality check for couples avoiding financial transparency, emphasizing that sustainable

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Are you feeling stuck with your money? Have you told yourself, I need to figure it out, but you haven't really done it? I understand that not everyone is going to sit down and read multiple books about money. I get that. That is why I created Rich Life, The Road to 100K. This is a step-by-step program that shows you how to build a money system that works, like figuring out the date that you're going to have $100,000 invested, how to automate your money, and how to cut through the noise. Plus, you will get access to weekly live events and a community of like-minded people, plus a library of my best materials. This is the program that will finally help you get on track with your money, and you can join today at IWT.com slash 100K. Speaker 3 (0:48) So many years, it was like, well, don't spend that. Well, don't spend that. Speaker 1 (0:54) Your debt is between $633,000 and a million dollars. Wow. How do you feel? about your numbers. Speaker 3 (1:02) Despair. Speaker 1 (1:03) Embarrassed. Speaker 2 (1:03) It's heavy. It's like a burden that you carry around. I Speaker 3 (1:07) don't feel like I have a lot of control because I just am like waiting on him to give us paychecks all the time. It Speaker 2 (1:13) feels like you're putting all the burden on me to come up with a Speaker 1 (1:15) plan. I Speaker 3 (1:15) need communication. I'm a person that thrives on knowing what's going on. Do Speaker 1 (1:19) you resolve your money conversations or do they just get swept under the rug? Speaker 3 (1:23) They just move to a new day. Speaker 1 (1:24) What does that feel like? Speaker 3 (1:26) Overwhelming. Hopeless. Speaker 1 (1:28) What's going to happen if you get hit by an emergency expense? Speaker 3 (1:31) We'll lose our house. Yes. We'll always be broke. Speaker 1 (1:35) Now, it's one thing if it's just the two of you, but you have four kids. I'm not okay with it. You have to change and probably change radically. Speaker 1 (1:46) Today, I'm talking to Rebecca and Matthew, 43 and 42 years old. They have four children and they live in an expensive area. And every single month, they spend more than they make. They're in a pretty difficult financial situation. And to figure out what's going on, I realized I needed to go deeper with their numbers. So today, we're doing something new. I'm going to be able to go deeper into the details of our guests' spending, how much they actually spend on eating out and vacations and even random Amazon purchases. I can now see it all, and so will you. And sometimes what we see is not going to equal what they tell me. We found a great partner to help with these. financial drill downs. Monarch, which is a private personal finance app that brings all of a household's accounts into one clean dashboard, including checking, credit cards, loans, and investments. You can now try it for free and get 50 % off your first year off of Monarch's core tier using code Ramit at monarch.com slash Ramit. So let's take a peek in their Monarch account to see what jumps out. credit cards, $13,000. I kind of want to see what's getting spent on their credit cards. Let's take a look. I see a lot of assorted spending at Amazon and Target. As recently as a couple of months ago, they spent $214 on interest charges. And then just a few days prior to that, $40 on a past due fee. So they're probably spending thousands of dollars a year on just fees. Let's take a look at their transactions. Carmel Valley Lodge for $526, and that's just a few days ago. So we have a couple that's in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt spending $500 at a hotel. I'm definitely curious about that. Church Giving, $550 a month. I have questions. You know what? Now that I'm looking at it, there's a lot of frequent shopping here. All right, I have a lot of questions. Let's go meet Rebecca and Matthew. In your application, Rebecca, you wrote something that caught my eye. I want to read it. You wrote, we are midlife in our 40s. We are basically no savings and hardly anything in our retirement. And my husband has taken from that retirement to make ends meet at different times. I don't see how we will sustain our relationship and family long term without a major shift. It's feeling hopeless to me. a lot of the time. Do you still feel that way? Speaker 3 (4:25) Yes, I Speaker 1 (4:26) do. Where were you when you wrote that and what was going on in your life? Speaker 3 (4:33) Ironically enough, we were on a road trip and we were actually listening to your podcast in the front of the car while our kids were on their headphones in the back. And I just said, you know what? I'm tired of this. Like, Speaker 1 (4:45) we Speaker 3 (4:46) need help. Speaker 1 (4:47) How long have you felt tired? of your financial situation? Speaker 3 (4:52) Probably most of our marriage, but particularly in the last... Maybe five or six years has been hard. Got Speaker 1 (5:00) it. Got it. How long have you been married? Speaker 3 (5:02) We've married 16 years in a couple weeks. Speaker 1 (5:05) Wow. Congratulations. Thank Speaker 3 (5:07) you. Okay. Speaker 1 (5:08) And how many children? Speaker 3 (5:09) Four. Speaker 1 (5:10) Four kids. Okay. What are their ages? Speaker 3 (5:13) 12, 10, 8, and 5. Speaker 1 (5:16) Great. Okay, great. All right. So married 16 years, four children. And you mentioned that in the last five or six years, money has become more challenging. What happened? Five or six years ago. We Speaker 3 (5:27) both run our own businesses. So there's not a lot of guarantee of any income when you do that. And then I think just maybe a lack of accountability about discussing really what our true financial situation looks like. That has made it hard for me because I kind of feel like I'm in the dark a little bit about it. Speaker 1 (5:47) What's the dynamic? Does one of you ask the other about their business or do neither of you talk about it? How would you describe that? Speaker 3 (5:55) Um, I feel like I'm over here being like, Hey, um, when, when do we get paid? Like, what does that look like? And then, you know, I'm, I'm not always given a lot of answers. And then I will say my business is rather small. Um, I don't make a lot. Mostly my money just goes to like groceries. And so Speaker 1 (6:13) when you ask, Hey, when are you getting paid? What's the response you get? Speaker 3 (6:17) And sometimes it's like, oh, I can do it on Friday. And then sometimes it's like, yeah, well, we already took that other part. So I don't know. I'll let you know. I don't feel like I'm able to plan. I don't know how to function when we don't have like any consistency. Speaker 1 (6:34) Yeah. And out of curiosity, why are you the one who, quote, has to plan? Speaker 3 (6:40) I mean, I don't have to, but. I think I am told a lot that I am not good with the money and that I need to understand the budget and I need to do these things. But it's really hard for me to understand a budget or how to do like monthly cash flow when there's no consistent monthly cash Speaker 1 (6:59) flow. Who tells you you're not good at planning? Speaker 3 (7:04) Matt. Speaker 1 (7:04) Okay. Speaker 3 (7:05) So Speaker 1 (7:05) Matt says you're not good. Then why are you the one managing it? Speaker 3 (7:10) I mean, I don't technically manage the actual budget, but I am the one who is doing all the household shopping, taking care of the kids' needs and things like that. So when there is no money, it definitely is felt by me. Speaker 1 (7:24) All right. Matt, what's your reaction to what Rebecca said about how she feels about money in the household? I Speaker 2 (7:30) think it makes... a lot of sense based on our situation. She has such good reason, I think, to feel like that, to like have the inconsistency wear on her. What's the Speaker 1 (7:44) dynamic of money management in your household? Speaker 2 (7:47) It's varied over time, but for the last number of years, we put money into a joint account from our business. And then I pay most of what I try to describe as the fixed bills and then We've typically have the agreement that will then move money into a joint Flexible spending account and that's where we can spend however much we want Until it's gone, but that's that money is usually gone really quick. And so we're then left pointing fingers about why there's not enough money left and what we should now need to pay for that we can't, et cetera. And then we try to steal from different sources to kind of pay for everything else. Does Speaker 1 (8:39) it work? Speaker 2 (8:40) No, no, we wouldn't be here if Speaker 1 (8:42) it worked. Wait, this is a dynamic that I see a lot with my guests. They go, we're doing this thing and they describe it in exhaustive detail. And then they just look so depressed. And I go, hey, does it work? They're like, no, this thing sucks. It's actually very human. to have something that's not working and we just keep doing it. And one of the greatest gifts that I can give is to give you a bird's eye view of what's happening with your money, maybe even how you're relating to each other. And then once you see it in a different perspective, it actually becomes very obvious what needs to change. Okay. When was the last time that the two of you really disagreed about money? Speaker 3 (9:26) Like literally two days ago. Speaker 1 (9:29) Amazing. Take me there. In fact, just role play it and I'll just watch. Speaker 3 (9:33) You know, I asked Matt about a plane ticket that I needed for a trip that he really encouraged me to go on with my mom. And then it just kind of unfolded from there. And it was like... Speaker 1 (9:44) Talk to Matt as if it's 48 hours ago. Speaker 3 (9:47) So I'm just feeling really nervous because we need to get this ticket and... If we don't get it soon, I might not be on the same flight as my mom and my aunt. So how are you going to pay for that? Speaker 2 (9:59) You're going to have to let me use some credit, some borrowed money to be able to buy the ticket if you want to buy the ticket right now. Speaker 3 (10:08) So the money that was borrowed is earmarked for the house repairs that we have. And I... have a really bad feeling about taking that because in the past we've done stuff like that and you've told me it would get put back and it doesn't. And so I'm really not super interested in taking money from a specific account that is being held for the repairs and not knowing when or if that will ever get put back. Speaker 2 (10:34) It's not helpful to leave it in one place for a project that we're not even starting yet and then try to pay money from some other place for this. flight that I really want you to get to take. So it's not different to spend some of that on this flight since we have to pay for both things and we have to use whatever is available right now. I Speaker 3 (10:55) hear that. I just think when you agreed to, or actually when you encouraged me to go on this trip, that money wasn't like a factor. And so I don't understand how you were going to pay for it if you now have to rely on that. Speaker 2 (11:10) It feels like you're putting all the burden on me to come up with a plan, to figure out a way to pay for it, to now do it. And then when I'm coming up with a short-term solution, you're trying to tell me that it's not good enough, but you're not helping with the solution. You don't have any other ideas. So I've got to do what I can do right now. And it's one more thing that you're putting on me that I feel like I have to be responsible for and solve. Speaker 1 (11:32) Okay, let me pause you right there. So first of all, thank you. I can tell that was pretty real. Did you resolve it? Speaker 3 (11:40) Nope. Speaker 1 (11:41) Okay. Do you resolve your money conversations or do they just get swept under the rug? Speaker 3 (11:45) They just move to a new day. Speaker 1 (11:48) That's been going on for years, right? Speaker 3 (11:50) Yes. Okay. Speaker 1 (11:51) What does that feel like, Rebecca? Speaker 3 (11:53) Overwhelming, hopeless, Speaker 1 (11:55) frustrating. Speaker 1 (11:59) Okay. Matt, what does it feel like to you to have these conversations about money? Speaker 2 (12:03) It's heavy. It's like a burden that just you carry around all the time. And then frankly, you tiptoe around because you think if we... open that conversation up again. It's all these old wounds. It's all these old conversations that never got resolved. I'd rather not have them. Speaker 1 (12:20) Yeah. Can I ask you to do something? It's going to be a little challenging, but I think it's important. I'd like for you to zoom up. And look down on the two of you, almost as if the two of you are chess players, and tell me what roles each of you were playing in that conversation. Speaker 3 (12:37) In a way, I was just, I'm trying to keep us accountable a bit because I feel like that idea of robbing Peter to pay Paul is like... what we always do. And it's super hard. And Speaker 1 (12:52) did you succeed? Speaker 3 (12:53) No. Speaker 1 (12:54) Okay. Do you succeed normally? Speaker 3 (12:56) No. Okay. Speaker 1 (12:58) But you keep playing that role. Yeah. And what's the thinking there? Maybe if I ask another time, another way, Matt will have a magical answer. Speaker 3 (13:08) I guess. Yeah. Speaker 1 (13:10) It's pretty interesting. Matt, what was your role that you played in that conversation? Speaker 2 (13:15) I feel like I'm... Speaker 2 (13:18) over here and she's coming to me kind of hat in hand saying, can we do this thing? And then I have to say yes or no, we can, or we can only do it in this way. And then I become super defensive about it because I say, you're coming to me for all the answers. If you want a different answer, then we have to do something differently. So I feel like I'm kind of put in the spot where I've got to provide, figure out the way to do it, and then parry with her over the way that it's done. Speaker 1 (13:55) That's quite insightful. Rebecca, what do you think about that? Speaker 3 (13:58) I mean, he's not wrong, but I think from my perspective, it's like, I'm not sure what else to do because not only is he the main breadwinner, but he's also his own business owner. And so he decides when we get paid. And so I'm coming to him because he's the person who pays us. Speaker 1 (14:16) And if Speaker 3 (14:18) he's not paying us consistently or there's no money or he makes a commitment for us, like this plane ticket. And then I'm expecting him to come up with how to pay for it because he makes all the money. So you just Speaker 1 (14:31) said, which caught my eye was, I don't know any other way to do it. Should you have to go to him and then Matt has to decide on a whim whether it's okay or not, or if the money should come from here or there? Speaker 3 (14:43) Should I have to do that? No. Speaker 1 (14:44) Cool. Why do you do it? Speaker 3 (14:46) Because I don't have any personal money. And if he's not paying us, I have no way to pay for it. So I have to go to him. Good Speaker 1 (14:53) answer. You two are married with four children. You've been married for 16 years. This is easy for me to say and very difficult to do, but let's just wipe away the many, many years of financial wounds just for one second. Yes, Matt earns more than you, Rebecca, but should the lower earner have to go to the higher earner and ask for permission to spend money on certain things? Speaker 3 (15:16) No. Speaker 1 (15:17) Okay, cool. What should happen instead? Speaker 3 (15:21) we should be having a joint account with actual money available in it to be able to buy things we need. Speaker 1 (15:28) Great. Agreed. And maybe there should be some set of rules as to these are the things that we don't need to talk about. Anything above this amount, we talk about. And here are our core values. And for example, if it is something relating to safety, we are going to spend more there. But if it's something relating to, I don't know, fancy food, we are not. What do you think? Yeah. Okay. It seems painful to have these conversations over and over and not come to a resolution. Speaker 3 (16:01) It is. Speaker 1 (16:02) Okay. Matt, what about you? You want to be in the position of having your wife come to you and ask you and then you have to, quote, parry her questions? Speaker 2 (16:12) No, no. As you describe it, you think, gosh, this isn't that hard. But as soon as you're in it, you're right back into the old routines. Speaker 1 (16:20) What do you think would have to change? What would you have to do differently, Matt, in order for this dynamic to change? Speaker 2 (16:25) I'd have to be a lot more... I think a lot more open with Rebecca about. what's available and asking for ideas or her involvement about if we can't do it today, you know, what could we do this week to make it possible for next week or the week after? Okay. Speaker 1 (16:47) Rebecca, what would you need to change in order for this dynamic to change? Speaker 3 (16:50) I guess just being better about the monies that are available to me and trying to save more of the money that we're bringing in. Speaker 3 (17:01) But beyond that, I don't feel like I have a lot of control because I just am like waiting on him to give us paychecks all the time. So I don't, I don't know what else I could personally do. Speaker 1 (17:11) This all seemed very, uh, like traditional to you. Speaker 3 (17:15) Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:16) Wife comes hat in hand. Hey, primary earner, I'd like to spend this money. Can I? And then he goes, I don't know. You, you seem to be spending too much at the grocery store. I mean, is this not the tale as old as time? I f***ing hate this story. Speaker 2 (17:34) Yeah, and I, for one, feel like I do a lot better with accountability and someone who's... in the trenches with me that feels like, hey, these are the rules we have, or these are the things we're saving for. Let's do it together. Speaker 1 (17:50) Oh. You want somebody, quote, in the trenches with you, creating rules with you. Okay. Rebecca, are you not in the trenches with the money? Speaker 3 (17:59) I don't know how to be in the trenches because I'm not great at budgeting. And the fact that like, we don't have consistent paychecks. And so I don't have a way to. Speaker 3 (18:11) Help myself plan or learn with him in the trenches like it's a solution Consistent paychecks like literally I don't understand why we can't do that and I've asked and I feel like I'm constantly Nagging him like when's the paycheck coming? Is it coming? When's it coming? You said every Friday you said every other Friday you Matt Speaker 1 (18:31) She wants consistent paychecks. That sounds reasonable to me. What's the problem? Speaker 2 (18:36) It's Speaker 1 (18:36) a Speaker 2 (18:36) super reasonable request. I think part of it is struggle with consistent revenue in my business. And so sometimes the amount of money that's coming down to us isn't as much as we'd like. Speaker 1 (18:53) So Speaker 2 (18:53) it's probably at the top end starts with not Speaker 1 (18:57) enough revenue. I'm noticing a few clues. And I don't yet know what to make of it, but are you picking up on them too? They make a lot of circuitous arguments. If this, then that, but I'm not sure. And what about you? And it's just this never-ending loop. And she's upset. I would be upset too if I had these negative money conversations all the time and they never actually got resolved. And then you just look at how confusing everything is. It starts to kind of fit together. We have this account, but we have to take this money out and pay this, but it's for a renovation. It's just a lack of clarity everywhere. So I want to keep digging so I can try to get to the root of what's going on here. But are you seeing this too? You know this phrase, once the toothpaste is out of the tube, you can't put it back in? Same thing is true for your personal information. Once the internet knows your siblings' names or your address and how much your house costs, you can't take that information back. So what do you do? Well, the best thing is go back 20 years in time and change your data practices, but that can't happen anymore. The second best thing you can do is use Delete Me, one of my favorite tools, to protect your privacy starting right now. Delete Me is a subscription service that removes your personal data from the internet. We're talking about things like your full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents' names, all found and removed. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal for the last 15 years. They were recently named Wirecutter's number one data removal service. And I personally use and pay for Delete Me. And I love it. And I know you will too. You'll get 20 % off. all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteeme.com slash Ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's joindeleteeme.com slash Ramit, code Ramit for 20 % off. Okay, can I tell you something that I'm kind of proud of? Over the last few months, my wife and I took a long trip around the world. And before we went, we decided we wanted to stay as close as possible to being on our fitness plan. So we created a plan. of what we were gonna eat and how we were gonna train. And so I know that if I start my day off right with a pretty healthy breakfast, the rest of the day is gonna go pretty well. But if you are looking for a simple way to eat healthier meals today, check out Factor. Factor is a meal service that delivers fully prepared, ready to eat meals directly to your door. And they have a lot of variety. They have over 100 rotating weekly meals, including high protein options, keto, GLP-1 friendly. They even have a muscle pro collection for strength and workout recovery. Factor meals include lean proteins, colorful veggies, and healthy fats. Plus, they are never frozen and they are ready to eat in under two minutes. This is an easy way to try introducing systems into your health, specifically the way you eat. And if I needed healthy, ready-made meals, this is what I would use. Let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com slash remeet50off and use code remeet50off to get 50 % off and one free breakfast item per box for one year, while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code remeet50off at factormeals.com. remeet50off at factormeals.com. See website for more details. What do you say we take a look at your numbers? How do you feel about your numbers? Speaker 3 (22:30) Despair. Speaker 1 (22:31) Despair. Wow. Speaker 3 (22:32) Yeah. Speaker 1 (22:33) That's a strong word. Okay, Matt? Embarrassed. Embarrassed. Okay. Matt, can you read off the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please? Speaker 2 (22:43) Assets, 840,000. Investments, 45,000. Savings, 1,000. Debt. Speaker 2 (22:53) 633,500. Law school debt, an extra huge amount. The total net worth of 252,500. What Speaker 1 (23:03) do you think about those numbers? Speaker 2 (23:05) Well, they're certainly not what I would have expected 20 years ago when I thought where I would be when I was in my 40s. You Speaker 1 (23:13) thought you would have more? Speaker 2 (23:14) Yeah, I assumed I would. be much, much better off than that. Okay. Rebecca? Speaker 3 (23:20) Makes me feel really insecure. Speaker 3 (23:27) Like I don't really know how to get out of it. Speaker 1 (23:29) Mm-hmm. Both of those resonate with me a lot. The idea that I thought I would be further ahead and then like one day in my 40s, I wake up and look at it and oh my God, like how did we get here? We should be so much further along and insecurity. Like you mentioned despair. What am I going to do? And so the only thing that I can resort to doing is asking and asking. And it comes across as, you put it, nagging. But I need some answers. I need some clarity. When I looked at this, I noticed that your debt of $633,500. did not include your law school debt. Law school debt is a very, very substantial $350,000. Why is that not counted on your debt amount? Speaker 2 (24:24) Didn't put it down because it's been on a debt repayment plan. So we haven't made payments on it in a number of years. And so we've made payments on it for a decade or so. And then allegedly it gets forgiven at the end of the 20 or 25 years. Is interest accruing? Oh, yes. Speaker 3 (24:51) Oh, yes. Speaker 2 (24:52) It's twice as much as it was when I finished school. Speaker 1 (24:55) Damn. But did you know 20 years ago that you were going to be forgiven? Speaker 2 (25:00) Well, sort of. In the first year, I did a consolidation with the government loans and got onto and... income-based repayment plan. Speaker 1 (25:12) Income-based repayment plan, but not loan forgiveness. Speaker 2 (25:15) Well, the plan, the income-based repayment plan was you make your payments as prescribed for 25 years and then the balance is forgiven. So at this point, it's ballooned so out of control that it feels like it doesn't help to even think about trying to pay it down. It helps to just think about how can we get through another 10 years. hopefully that plan still exists and it gets forgiven then. Speaker 1 (25:43) And if not? Speaker 2 (25:44) We're going to be talking to you again. No, Speaker 1 (25:48) that's not what's going to happen. What will happen? Rebecca? Speaker 3 (25:52) We'll have to make a lot of sacrifices to get it paid off. I don't know what else we would do. Speaker 1 (25:58) So right now you are making the bet that the income-based repayment plan, the forgiveness part of that, is going to forgive all of this? Is that the best? Speaker 3 (26:10) Whatever's left over is supposedly what's supposed to happen. Yeah. Speaker 1 (26:14) And have you checked on the current status of that program? Speaker 2 (26:17) Yes. Leading up to this call, forgiveness at the end of 25 years plan was still available. Still Speaker 1 (26:26) available? Speaker 2 (26:26) Yeah. Speaker 1 (26:27) Okay. So just to... That's Speaker 3 (26:29) news to me. So that's good. Speaker 1 (26:31) Oh, wait, how come? How come you didn't communicate this to Rebecca? Speaker 2 (26:35) I don't know. Probably chalk it up on the list of things that I don't communicate to her. Speaker 1 (26:40) Why? Speaker 2 (26:42) The positive way would be, oh, I don't want to burden her or she doesn't need to worry about it right now. The negative would be, you know, I'm going to get it all figured out and then I'll talk to her about it. Who Speaker 1 (26:54) grew up in the Midwest? Speaker 2 (26:57) Neither? No, but we grew up with Midwest sensibilities. Speaker 1 (27:04) Okay. I don't want to burden my little flower of a wife because she's so delicate. I better not tell her that we're still on track for loan forgiveness. I better not even burden her with good news, much less bad news. Anybody see how absurd this sounds? Yes. It's a very old gendered sort of thing. And it just, it oozes into American culture in so many different ways. Let me just. bottle it up because I'm a man and I can take it but my wife no meanwhile Speaker 3 (27:35) is Speaker 1 (27:36) it working no Speaker 3 (27:39) It makes me very frustrated. I need communication. I'm a person that thrives on knowing what's going on. And I feel very in the dark 90 % of the time. Yes. Speaker 1 (27:49) It's not acceptable. It's not acceptable to be in the dark. And it's not acceptable to even take bad news or good news on. yourself and not enlist your partner because you're actually demeaning your partner. Oh, my partner is not capable of handling this bad news. Hey, maybe it's going to be hard. Maybe your partner's going to cry. Maybe your partner's going to be pissed. So be it. But to take it on yourself and actually not be effectively managing this stuff anyway, it's just not acceptable. So we're going to fix that today. So your debt is between $633,000 and... a million dollars. Wow. It's unclear what will happen with the law school debt, but what you are telling me, Matt, is that based on your recent investigation, you are still on track for that entire amount to be forgiven. Is that correct? The unpaid balance, yeah. And when would that term be that it would be forgiven? Speaker 1 (28:44) About 10 years. 10 years. And just to confirm, that includes the interest as well? Speaker 2 (28:50) That's the unpaid balance. So I think it's principally an interest. Okay. Speaker 3 (28:56) Can I ask a question, Ramit? Speaker 1 (28:58) Please. Speaker 3 (28:59) At one point, you had said that it was based on you making payments for 25 years. But because of COVID, we have been in this basically forced