279. “He lost his $150k job, but I make every decision - can we fix this?”

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Ramit Sethi sits down with Isabelle and Ryan, a couple struggling with financial tension following Ryan's layoff from a $150,000 software engi

Key takeaways

• The couple faces high fixed costs of 83% of their income, leaving zero savings and minimal guilt-free spending.
• A 'parent-child' dynamic emerged where Ryan seeks permission for small purchases, such as ice cream scoops, to avoid criticism.

Main topics

• Financial decision-making in marriage
• Impact of job loss on household dynamics

Notable quotes

I'm the one that's making a lot of the decisions... and that gets really tiring.

Conclusion

True financial teamwork requires moving past performative politeness t

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) You know how they say when you get married, your life gets better because of your wife? I have found that to be true because my wife was like, why do you keep on staying awake all night? What's the point? You're just on Reddit. Get off, go to sleep. And I hate to say that I did it and it actually worked. That's why I try to go to sleep on time and we bought a high quality mattress. I just take sleep a lot more seriously. And this is why I'm excited that sleep scientist, Dr. Eric Prather is hosting our next presentation in our Rich Life. Road to 100K program. Join us on Wednesday, September 30th for this free live event where Dr. Prather will walk you through the exact changes he makes with patients in his sleep clinic, including what to do when you are lying awake in the middle of the night or why going to bed earlier doesn't always mean more sleep. If you've tried everything and you still wake up exhausted, don't miss this very important addition to your rich life. Register today at iwt.com slash expert session. Speaker 3 (0:58) There's this real concern. If I die, he's SOL. I got laid off. Speaker 1 (1:02) Then I kind of fell off and I'm just like, okay, I don't deserve anything. Speaker 3 (1:05) I'm the one that's making a lot of the decisions and that gets really tiring. Speaker 1 (1:10) Every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I'm shut down and I'm just belittled for it. So I just don't. It Speaker 2 (1:16) seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don't approve of it. Speaker 3 (1:19) I think that sounds accurate. Speaker 2 (1:21) You feel the need to control and direct his involvement with money. Speaker 1 (1:26) I mean, I do like being in control. Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I'll make the wrong decision because I feel like my decisions are judged quite frequently. Speaker 2 (1:33) You have 83 % fixed costs. You have no savings, no money for vacation. Your guilt-free spending is getting chipped away. Yeah. And if one of you loses your job, again, we got problems. Speaker 2 (1:48) In lots of relationships, one person ends up handling the money. And we see it all the time on this podcast. One person, often the woman in a heterosexual relationship, pays the bills, makes the plans, and thinks about the financial future. At first, it feels normal. It's even helpful. But here's the problem. The more one person takes over, the easier it is for the other person to step back and even stop trying. So eventually what you will find is one partner thinking, why am I the only one dealing with this? And the other's thinking, she's got it under control. She's so much better at this than I am. That is exactly what's happening with Isabel and Ryan. They're 37 and 40 years old. They've been married for 12 years with a four-year-old daughter. And Ryan lost his job six months ago, but it turns out their money problem started way before that. Isabel feels like she is carrying their whole financial future all by herself. Interestingly, Ryan says every time he tries to get involved, he feels judged or shut down. I want to know how they ended up stuck in these roles. Why did money become something stressful instead of something they do together? And ultimately, what is it going to take for them to start working as a team? Let's meet Isabel and Ryan. Isabel, you wrote something on your application that caught my eye. You said, quote, I'm exhausted being the only one. actively thinking about and managing our financial future. Tell me more about that. Speaker 3 (3:18) I'm the one that's making a lot of the decisions, the day-to-day decisions, the big decisions, the long-term decisions, and that gets really tiring. Speaker 1 (3:25) But Speaker 3 (3:25) then the other thing is that I feel like we've been and are in a little bit of a limbo because Ryan lost his job a while ago now. And I think that that's led to a lot of stress and anxiety about... about money, about finances, about we can or cannot spend on this, about trying to find work. And I've been doing a lot of future planning and a lot of thinking, and there's this very real concern I have that if I die, he's SOL, right? Like there's this notion that I've started thinking about like getting a will set up, getting like life insurance. I've been thinking about all of those things, and that's made me realize that I think I'm holding up a lot of the financial structure in the household. I would like... Trying to move towards a place where I could know that if I were gone, I could trust him to continue that moving forward. Speaker 1 (4:14) I'm mostly here for her. I'm not going to lie about that. Speaker 2 (4:17) Okay. Speaker 1 (4:18) I'm the classic money anxiety person. I would definitely like to find like a more of a comfort point. Like she was saying, we do have conversations about money from time to time. Speaker 2 (4:26) I Speaker 1 (4:27) feel like sometimes it improves in the short term and then it kind of falls apart again. Speaker 2 (4:30) What's it? Speaker 1 (4:32) The whole like aura or like teamwork or anything like that. One of the things that we kind of run into is the concept of spending makes me nervous, I guess. And I unconsciously over the course of the next few weeks or so kind of gradually fall off. Speaker 3 (4:47) I feel like we're not, we're doing okay. You know, I still feel like even on a single income where we are, I think we're okay. And I think he's a lot of the times carrying a lot of stress and anxiety about small day-to-day spending that I think is. trivial. Speaker 2 (5:02) What's an example of something small that he focuses on? Speaker 3 (5:06) He just said, I knew that was going to come up because I told you it was going to come up. We were at a home goods store just last weekend. He went off to look at some things while I was with our daughter and he sent me a picture of two ice cream scoops. Speaker 2 (5:19) Okay. One Speaker 3 (5:20) was $6. One was $14. I was with our daughter. I couldn't really think about it, focus on it. I was just like, just get. Whichever, just get whichever. Probably the one with the little swoopy handle that we like. And then I didn't really pay attention to it. He put one in the cart. When we get to the register, it was a $6 one. And I think I said, as we were paying, like, did you really get that one? And I didn't see this until after he texted me when he was comparing the two, like, I feel poor. And I still sit and think to myself, like, we... or not poor. It's, it's, I don't think about those things. I don't stress, I don't stress about that level of purchase. And I feel like he does. And it sounds, I don't know. It just feels like a very tiring way to live. Uh, Speaker 2 (6:03) Ryan, what was going on when you were at the store looking at the scoops? Speaker 1 (6:07) Well, I just feel like, um, a lot of those little decisions add up. So when it's looking at like those smaller day-to-day things, I do feel like with my income gone, it was fairly large and sizable. Speaker 3 (6:17) Kind Speaker 1 (6:17) of just felt like maybe it's Speaker 3 (6:19) a Speaker 1 (6:19) better idea to spend a little less. $6 here, $6 there over the course of like a week or months does add up. Speaker 2 (6:25) When you both hear the description of what happened at the store with the ice cream scoops and you zoom out, what role is each of you playing in that dynamic? Speaker 1 (6:37) I'd say that she's kind of taking on almost a maternal role if I'm asking for permission, which she shouldn't be. Speaker 2 (6:42) And what role are you taking on then? Speaker 1 (6:44) Like a child. Yeah. Parent-child dynamic. I think that's quite accurate. He Speaker 3 (6:49) was Speaker 1 (6:49) asking for Speaker 3 (6:49) permission and I just like, I didn't care to Speaker 1 (6:52) be honest. And you didn't care. Speaker 2 (6:54) I'm not so sure I agree that you didn't care. You Speaker 3 (6:58) don't think so? No, Speaker 2 (6:59) because what happened at the checkout? Speaker 3 (7:01) You're right. You're right. What Speaker 2 (7:02) did you say? Speaker 3 (7:03) Did you really get that one? And it was very much a judgy tone. I don't feel like I need to give permission for those kinds of purchases. I kind of wish he had just, and we talked about this before, like there's a lot of instances where he'll get the cheaper item and I'll say like, why didn't you just get the nicer one that'll last longer or that you actually wanted instead of the cheaper thing that will then either not be useful. I don't know. Think Speaker 2 (7:31) about it. Speaker 3 (7:35) I feel like oftentimes I'm the decision maker and things. And I feel like I'm the one who can make the informed decisions because I have a better understanding of where finances are. I just don't want to be making the informed decisions all the time. I'm not interested Speaker 2 (7:49) in what you want and don't want. I'm only interested right now in what role were you playing? Speaker 3 (7:54) I mean, if we're following along with the same dynamic, I am the parent in that dynamic. Speaker 2 (7:59) It's Speaker 3 (8:00) the same way that like my daughter might come up and say, can I get this or that? And I'm... making that decision? Speaker 1 (8:05) Well, I feel like there was a right decision, obviously. She got upset when I bought the cheaper ice cream scoop. Oh, Speaker 2 (8:11) so Speaker 1 (8:11) the right decision. I was leaning towards the cheaper scoop, but I just asked her which one she wanted. And she said she didn't care. So I bought the cheaper one because I felt more comfortable with it. And then she kind of lashed out about it. Why'd you Speaker 2 (8:20) even ask? I don't know. It's just. Think about it. Speaker 1 (8:24) Maybe I have a bit of a phobia that I'll make the wrong decision because I feel like I'm, my decisions are judged quite frequently. Speaker 1 (8:33) Okay. Speaker 2 (8:33) Money obviously makes both of you uncomfortable. Is that fair to say? Right. Ryan says yes. Isabel? Speaker 1 (8:44) If Speaker 2 (8:45) not, feel free to disagree with me. I Speaker 1 (8:47) don't feel like it does. Speaker 2 (8:48) Okay. Speaker 1 (8:48) It does come up enough. Like I know that one of the things that you talk about is guilt-free spending. We've jokingly said that or she's jokingly brought up that there's no such thing as guilt-free spending. For Speaker 3 (8:58) him. For him specifically. If I buy myself Speaker 1 (9:00) something nice, I dwell on it and feel guilty about it for the rest of my life. Okay. Is Speaker 2 (9:05) it when you buy something nice, it's racked with guilt or is it when you buy anything? Speaker 1 (9:09) I'd say anything in the short term, but in the longer term, the larger purchases more so. Like I'm a huge, this is an example of a larger purchase. I'm a huge coffee person. I used to run a roastery and I bought a $3,000 espresso machine back when I was working and we could afford it. It wasn't a big deal, but I still feel like it was a silly thing for me to buy in terms of the cost. And I feel guilty that I bought that. Speaker 2 (9:31) How does guilt show up for you? Where do you feel it? Speaker 1 (9:34) And it's like a heavy feeling in the chest, I suppose, or. Sometimes I feel like maybe I'll misconstrue a comment or a little joke that she made. And this is where it gets really bad in terms of money. And I'll feel like I'm being attacked. What's Speaker 2 (9:48) an Speaker 1 (9:48) example? She'll make a little comment about the cost of my espresso machine. And she's just half joking and didn't really even give it any thought. And I'll feel like she's been dwelling on it for months or something. And I'll just either walk away or give one word answers and just kind of shut Speaker 2 (10:04) down. Do you remember what kind of... um, joking comment you make? Speaker 3 (10:09) I don't know. I'm trying to think about when that might've been. I know we had a couple of friends over lately and I made some comment about the $3,000 espresso machine and a very fancy grinder. And like, there's a lot. What'd you Speaker 2 (10:21) say? Speaker 3 (10:21) Uh, I said something like, Oh, I think we have about $5,000 worth of coffee equipment here. Speaker 2 (10:26) And do you agree that when he purchased it, you both could afford it? Speaker 1 (10:30) Yes, I do think so. But then I got laid off, which is becoming more common in my field. And then I kind of fell off and I'm just like, okay, I don't deserve anything. And I didn't really buy anything. And you feel like it was the time for that sort of purchasing. When did that happen? Probably about seven months ago. Okay. Speaker 2 (10:47) Sucks. Speaker 1 (10:48) Yeah. Yeah, I literally remember. Speaker 2 (10:50) What was your first thought when that happened? Speaker 1 (10:52) You know, I wasn't actually upset at first, which is funny because she's mentioned before that we might be fine if I did a career pivot or went for slightly less money and became more comfortable. Okay. Speaker 2 (11:01) But Speaker 1 (11:01) I have a hard time coming to terms with reducing my earning power that much. Why? Well, this is a career that I've had for like 11 years, right? Like I've been a software engineer for 11 years. It pays pretty well in the past. It had a lot of flexibility in terms of remote hours and things like that, which is changing. Speaker 2 (11:17) Did you feel anything at all or were you like, okay? Speaker 1 (11:19) I was like, okay. I mean, to be honest, it didn't hit me quite as hard the first time because I was getting the severance, which covered the first few months. And I wasn't happy there, if I'm totally being honest with myself. Speaker 2 (11:31) Like Speaker 1 (11:32) I was doing fine as far as every metric went, but I didn't feel like that was valued. You feel it's common that Speaker 2 (11:37) you stay in situations that you don't like? Speaker 1 (11:41) Yeah, probably. Career? Speaker 2 (11:43) Any other parts of life? Speaker 1 (11:45) Career primarily. One thing we talked about when I was looking for employment is I wanted to move, and this is a huge life decision, so I don't blame her for disagreeing, but I wanted to move a little bit further west so I could look at more jobs out closer to the coast, which is where a lot of the tech companies are. And she just pretty much just said no, and then we were done with the conversation. Speaker 2 (12:06) And that's where you are today? Speaker 1 (12:08) Yes, that's where we are today. You say no, Speaker 2 (12:09) you... still want to do that for better job opportunities. Is that right? Speaker 1 (12:13) I was tempted. Yes. It's something I wanted to at least talk about or put on paper, but it just felt like instantly dismissive Speaker 2 (12:20) of Speaker 1 (12:20) my career when being like honest, we moved to California for her career and she will move 20 minutes West for me. I Speaker 2 (12:28) see. Okay. Isabel, what do you do for a living? Speaker 3 (12:30) I am a professor at a university nearby. Speaker 2 (12:33) And how long have you two been married for? Speaker 3 (12:35) 12 years and a couple of weeks. Speaker 2 (12:37) Oh, cool. Congrats. Kids. Speaker 3 (12:39) One child, yes. A four-year-old daughter. Speaker 2 (12:42) Okay, great. All right. How do decisions get made in your household? Speaker 3 (12:48) It's probably going to be me for most decisions, I would say. We have our financial system set up in a particular way that was probably entirely me, which was setting up like a joint checking account, setting up credit cards connected to that for each. We each have individual checking and... credit cards like separately where I don't look at it. I don't track it. I don't do Speaker 1 (13:09) anything Speaker 3 (13:09) with it like that. That was all set up by me. I'm the only one looking at things like life insurance. I'm the only one looking at things like a will. Speaker 2 (13:19) When was the first time you had a serious conversation about money? Speaker 1 (13:23) Probably when we were getting married, we had like this. The standard discussion. What's that? Like what we're comfortable spending at each time, what we're looking for in terms of where we want to live in the future, all of Speaker 2 (13:35) that. How much you're comfortable spending? What do you remember saying? Speaker 1 (13:38) At the time we were making considerably less. Speaker 2 (13:40) So it was like $50. You're right. Speaker 3 (13:41) I remember that. I remember that. It was, yeah, yeah. It was premarital counseling. Speaker 2 (13:47) Isn't it kind of interesting that now 12 years later, you are texting about a $6 ice cream scooper? Speaker 1 (13:55) Yeah, it's fair. I don't think it's about the ice cream scoop. It's probably just because I feel guilty about some of the other larger purchases and maybe I just make assumptions based on that. Speaker 2 (14:05) I kind of love the idea that they were both in this store and he's agonizing over whether to buy ice cream scoop number one or ice cream scoop number two. It tells me so much about their relationship. What layers are you noticing here? Here's what I'm noticing. I'm noticing that instead of being curious of her partner, when it comes to how he chooses to spend money, she kind of puts him down. And that makes me understand why he might not want to participate in money in this relationship. She feels like she does everything, but also little jabs after checkout. Oh, you bought that one? Quite interesting. So I'm starting to suspect that whatever dynamic they have with money is co-created and definitely a lot of it is due to control. Let's find out if I'm right. I'm going to take a wild guess. Maybe you've been putting off seeing a doctor for a while for some unexplained condition. Hey, why is my left eye blurry? Do I have toe fungus or is it just gross toenails? Whatever it is, stop wondering if you should get it checked out. Go see someone right now. You can use our sponsor ZocDoc. They make it really easy. You don't even have to get on the phone to schedule an appointment. ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors. Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care, or anything else, you can easily search by specialty or symptoms, and you can book in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. Getting an actual appointment is easy. You just look through the real appointment openings, click what works for your schedule, Speaker 1 (15:42) and book it instantly. Speaker 2 (15:43) And what's great is their appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. No more waiting months and months to get the care that you need. Your health matters and taking care of yourself should not be complicated. Find and book the right doctor with ZocDoc. Head to ZocDoc.com slash Ramit to get started and check that appointment off your to-do list. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash Ramit. Speaker 2 (16:12) When I first started IWT, I was the person who answered every single customer service email, Speaker 1 (16:18) but I didn't really love it. Speaker 2 (16:19) And as the company grew, I couldn't really keep up. So I hired a great customer success team that has taken over ever since. If you are looking for help with your customer service in your business, one great option is this episode's sponsor, 11 Agents by 11 Lab. 11 Agents is a platform for AI voice and chat agents that can actually listen, understand, and resolve customer issues. They handle the simple stuff like looking up customer accounts, processing requests, and they know when to hand off complex tasks to a person. Their agents use the same AI tech as Eleven Labs, the company known for realistic voice and audio models in over 70 languages. So if you've ever heard an AI voice that sounds real and natural, there's a good chance it's from Eleven Labs. My team and I actually use Eleven Labs, and if I needed AI voice and chat agents, I would use 11 agents. If you're looking to improve your customer service experience, check out 11 agents. If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales, or marketing, you can start with a demo at 11labs.io slash Ramit. See how 11 agents can fit into your workflows and help build experiences that your customers will actually love. 11labs.io slash Ramit. That's E-L-E-V-E-N. l-a-b-s dot i-o slash Ramit. You know how they say when you get married, your life gets better because of your wife? I have found that to be true because my wife was like, why do you keep on staying awake all night? What's the point? You're just on Reddit. Get off, go to sleep. And I hate to say that I did it and it actually worked. That's why I try to go to sleep on time and we bought a high quality mattress. I just take sleep a lot more seriously. And this is why I'm excited that sleep scientist, Dr. Eric Prather is hosting our next presentation in our Rich Life. Road to 100K program. Join us on Wednesday, September 30th for this free live event where Dr. Prather will walk you through the exact changes he makes with patients in his sleep clinic, including what to do when you are lying awake in the middle of the night or why going to bed earlier doesn't always mean more sleep. If you've tried everything and you still wake up exhausted, don't miss this very important addition to your rich life. Register today at iwt.com slash expert session. Speaker 1 (18:41) What else did you talk about in the survey? Speaker 2 (18:45) Investing? I don't think it was any. Kids? Speaker 3 (18:47) Some of it was that detail stuff and then some of it was larger picture like. Speaker 2 (18:51) Wait, this doesn't sound very substantive. No, Speaker 3 (18:54) I don't Speaker 2 (18:54) think it was. Speaker 1 (18:55) We have had discussions about saving as well. What do you Speaker 2 (18:57) talk about? Speaker 1 (18:58) Well, usually it falls back on her. I end up feeling kind of dumb to be like, I'll bring up something like. maybe we should like start investing in stock. But that's the absolute worst thing you can do. And I'll Speaker 3 (19:10) be Speaker 1 (19:10) like, okay. I don't know Speaker 3 (19:11) that I phrased it like that. Speaker 1 (19:12) You pretty much said that. What did you say then? Speaker 2 (19:17) Actually, yeah. Let's recreate this conversation. So when did this happen? I like this. Speaker 3 (19:22) It was probably a couple of weeks ago. Perfect. Okay. Who Speaker 1 (19:25) brought it up? I did because I was trying to look at like getting more involved in money because she wanted to talk about it. Can you recreate it and I will just listen? Do it as realistically as possible. I was wondering if maybe we should set some money aside and I could start handling like investments for us and kind of research it and figure that out and make an individual stock portfolio. Speaker 3 (19:43) Are you thinking about like individual stocks, like selecting different places? Speaker 1 (19:48) Not like I've got a good feeling about Disney. Speaker 3 (19:51) Well, that's what wasn't clear to me. Because when I think about investing, it's like investing in, you know, probably a retirement account and thinking about funds that are diversified. Speaker 1 (20:01) Right. Well, we're not really recreating the conversation. I know. Maybe we should. I'm realizing that there Speaker 3 (20:05) was a misunderstanding from the beginning. Speaker 2 (20:07) What's with the performance? I feel like you're both performing for me and I'm not interested in a performance. Because if you all are here to put on a performance, then you're going to walk out with me reacting to your performance. I don't really think you want that. Do you think that we could recreate that conversation as it actually happened? I Speaker 1 (20:25) was thinking about putting some money aside just to start investing in stocks on my own. So I'm kind of handling a bit more. Speaker 3 (20:32) I mean, I don't know if that's a great idea, honestly, because I can't. I honestly can't remember what I said, Rumi. Speaker 2 (20:39) Yes, you can. Speaker 3 (20:40) No, I can't. I'm trying to think about what I said. You said it's one of the worst things we could do. Let Speaker 2 (20:47) me tell you what's going on here. I suspect that you think it's going to look bad if you actually say what you said. And so you're trying to mask it by saying something polite. It's Speaker 3 (20:56) quite possible, yes. I don't remember saying that, but maybe I did. And I should trust your memory of it. That's fair. I probably did say that's probably one of the worst ways that you could invest. And I don't like hearing that coming out of my mouth now. Speaker 2 (21:08) That's fine. Speaker 1 (21:10) I just feel like that's an example. Every time I try to get more involved, I just feel like I'm shut down and I'm just belittled for it, so I just don't. Speaker 3 (21:19) Yeah, and I'm hearing that and just feeling like shit about it. Because that's not what I want to do either. But... Speaker 2 (21:29) Finish your sentence. Speaker 3 (21:30) I mean, I feel like I've put in a lot of time and effort to try and be more informed about things. And so I'm asking for his help on decisions, but he's not at that same level of informed. And then that's frustrating too. I don't know where to go from there. Speaker 2 (21:46) It seems like you want him to be involved, but when he tries to get involved, you don't approve of it. Speaker 3 (21:51) I think that sounds accurate. Speaker 2 (21:54) Ice cream scoop all the way up to investments. Speaker 3 (21:56) I think that's accurate. So Speaker 2 (21:57) what do you want to do about that? Because I can give you a bunch of whiz bang stuff. Let's Speaker 1 (22:03) look at the numbers. Look at the percentages. Doesn't change anything. Speaker 2 (22:08) What is going on that you feel the need to control? Speaker 2 (22:14) direct Speaker 3 (22:14) his Speaker 2 (22:15) involvement with money? Speaker 3 (22:16) I mean, I do like being in control. I feel like currently I'm more knowledgeable about it. And I think that that's something that I try to leverage, but I am realizing that I probably need to just step back. Speaker 2 (22:33) Really? I Speaker 3 (22:35) worry that if I step back, then things won't get done or things won't. I don't want to say be done right, but be done right. And Speaker 2 (22:43) if that happens? Speaker 3 (22:45) Then we're not going to be in a good financial situation moving forward. We won't have a secure future or we won't have savings or we won't have something to fall back on for our daughter. So keep Speaker 2 (22:58) going. Speaker 3 (23:00) That's what gives me anxiety at night is thinking that if I step back, things are going to fall apart. Speaker 2 (23:06) And Speaker 3 (23:06) I don't like that feeling either, but it's very hard to stop. Speaker 2 (23:11) You've heard stories of, Speaker 2 (23:14) wife telling her husband, like, clean the kitchen counter. And he cleans it. She goes, you didn't do it the right way. Now I need to do it. This is kind of a... Wait, did this happen? Speaker 1 (23:25) Yes. Well, sort of. She says that I make the bed wrong. So anytime I make the bed, she'll go up and remake it. Anytime I sweep, she'll re-sweep. Speaker 3 (23:36) It's a pattern and it's not just in finances. Speaker 1 (23:38) Talk me through it. Speaker 3 (23:40) If I want it to be done and if I want it to be done correctly, sometimes it's easier to do it myself. Speaker 2 (23:44) Okay. So just do it. Speaker 3 (23:45) But I'm tired all the time and I'm exhausted and I don't have the time to be doing all of these things. And I don't want to feel like if I make the wrong decision, it's all entirely my fault. Speaker 2 (23:54) What do you get out of being a martyr? Speaker 3 (23:59) I don't know. I don't know. Think Speaker 2 (24:05) about it. Speaker 3 (24:06) A sense of... Speaker 3 (24:10) It's not satisfaction, but a sense of contribution, a sense of like I'm putting everything out there. And no one can say that I'm not, you know, doing X, Y, or Z. Because I'm working. Speaker 2 (24:22) I'm taking care of our daughter. I'm doing the finances. Right now I'm the breadwinner because he doesn't have a job. I'm even cleaning the kitchen counter the right way. Speaker 3 (24:31) Does Speaker 2 (24:32) it feel good? Speaker 3 (24:34) I don't think it's, no. Speaker 2 (24:36) I think it feels kind of good in a way. Speaker 3 (24:39) There's probably some truth to that, yeah. Because I'm very accustomed to always being on top of things and always being productive and always, always, always, always moving. Part of that is probably coming from the fact that I was functionally an only child of immigrant parents who did not speak English. Okay, Speaker 2 (24:56) got it. Speaker 3 (24:56) And so from a very, very, very young age, I was the main translator from the age of... I knew our parents, our mortgage better than my parents did. Like I was very accustomed to that. And I've always. Speaker 3 (25:12) had that type of control. What's the Speaker 2 (25:14) downside of trying to take on control in every part of your life? Speaker 3 (25:18) I get burnt out and Speaker 2 (25:19) I get Speaker 3 (25:20) exhausted. What Speaker 2 (25:20) else? Speaker 3 (25:21) Well, like I said, I always kind of have this fear of I'm the only one making the decisions and what if I'm doing something wrong and there's no one, you know, I don't have a cross check or someone to have input and validate or challenge decisions that may not be correct. Okay. Speaker 2 (25:35) What else? Speaker 3 (25:37) I mean, one of the things that I worry about too is my daughter seeing that and then replicating it herself because I'm replicating my own patterns and I know that to some extent. She's Speaker 2 (25:44) four, right? She sees it already. Speaker 3 (25:47) Yep. Speaker 2 (25:47) What about your partner? Speaker 3 (25:48) Well, I think that he's starting, well, not starting to, but I think getting to a point where he feels like his input is invaluable and his decisions aren't valued. Speaker 2 (25:57) So therefore he? Shuts down. Yeah. Disempowered, says like. I can't even get an ice cream scoop the right way. So you deal with it. Why not just keep doing this the rest of your life? The Speaker 3 (26:06) big thing for me and the thing that the reason that I want to try and to make progress towards breaking these patterns is because I think a lot Speaker 1 (26:13) about our daughter. Like that's Speaker 3 (26:14) really the main thing for me. I feel like if it was just me and him, Speaker 1 (26:17) I Speaker 3 (26:18) feel like I probably would be okay to continue this on. But A, I don't want her to grow up and... feel like she has to do the same thing because it's tiring. But then the other thing that I worry about is like, if I walk out of the studio today and get hit by a bus and that's something we need to think about. But like right now our retirement plan is primarily my pension. Like my income would fall through all of, you know, so that's, that's the other thing that I worry about too. Like if something were to happen to me, then Speaker 1 (26:47) this whole structure falls apart. I warn you, I'd be upset, but I think we would carry on in some, to some degree. Most of our passwords are like vault, et cetera. And my current financial situation is pretty largely determined by where we're located as well. So if I was able to take Sophia and move, we could probably find something else. Speaker 1 (27:13) Like we'd figure something out is what I'm saying. I have thought about it. It's not like I go through and I brainstorm for it, but I don't think we'd be completely screwed. How do you receive that, Isabel? Speaker 3 (27:23) I don't know if I believe it necessarily. Speaker 2 (27:27) Why do you think she doesn't necessarily believe you? She doesn't have a lot of Speaker 1 (27:30) faith in my decision-making or a lot of what I do. Speaker 2 (27:33) Do you demonstrate engagement and excellence with money? Speaker 1 (27:38) No, but I feel like anytime I try to I just kind of get shut down and I don't like debating so and she's much stronger when it comes to that. Speaker 2 (27:48) Morbid or not, one way to win the debate is if your partner's dead. There's no one to debate with anymore. I'll do it my way. Right. Who else? I would prefer not to get to that level. I would also prefer not Speaker 3 (27:59) to get to that. I prefer not for my wife to Speaker 2 (28:01) die in order for me to have a way to engage with Speaker 1 (28:05) money. That's true. I mean, I'd still be uncomfortable, but I mean, I was in my 20s when we were married. It's not like I was completely... They Speaker 2 (28:14) seem like real concerns, Isabel. Speaker 3 (28:17) Yeah. Speaker 2 (28:18) I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. You worry a lot, right? Speaker 3 (28:21) I feel like when we were dual income and I, you know, when I was maxing out his 401k, when we had all of this set up, when I had my, like, I feel like I wasn't worrying about it as much then. Speaker 2 (28:33) You're telling me that you were not stressed or worried about things in your household when he had a job. Speaker 3 (28:39) That's Speaker 1 (28:40) true, Speaker 3 (28:40) I think. Speaker 2 (28:41) I don't believe that. You don't Speaker 1 (28:42) think so? Speaker 2 (28:43) No way. Not in a million years. Speaker 1 (28:45) I will agree with that to some extent. Speaker 2 (28:47) Did she worry before when you had a job or no? Speaker 1 (28:49) I think she did. We were dual income and we were making considerably more than we needed to. And? And honestly, in her case, it paid off because I lost my job. I just want to know, was she Speaker 2 (29:02) worried or not? Speaker 1 (29:03) Yes. Okay. Speaker 2 (29:05) What is this? What's with the masks? The stories you're telling yourself. I don't worry. I don't. What's going on here? Speaker 3 (29:15) I don't know. Maybe it's the story that I wish I was telling instead Speaker 2 (29:18) of the one that I am. Speaker 3 (29:19) I Speaker 2 (29:20) was calm. I was cool and collected. But then this thing happened to him and now I'm forced to be worried. Speaker 3 (29:27) Have Speaker 2 (29:28) you all been to therapy? Speaker 1 (29:30) I've been to individual therapy, but we haven't done couples therapy. Why? I Speaker 3 (29:33) mean, I suggested it once. Speaker 1 (29:36) You suggested it and then stormed off after a bit of an argument about money. Yes, Speaker 3 (29:40) because I was Speaker 1 (29:40) very Speaker 3 (29:40) frustrated and upset. What was going on in that conversation? I think I'd asked him something about like how his job search was going or, you know, something to that effect. And it felt like he responded in a very elevated manner. Like it felt like he kind of snapped a little bit. And then I snapped back and said, I think we need to go to therapy. Speaker 2 (29:59) Okay. Speaker 3 (30:00) And I don't know that you... I don't know if you responded. I feel like I just blacked out and left. You just Speaker 1 (30:05) turned off and didn't want to talk. Yeah, I just left. So Speaker 3 (30:07) I just kind Speaker 1 (30:07) of let you be eventually. Speaker 3 (30:08) And then we didn't bring it up again. Speaker 1 (30:10) Yeah. And I feel like for me, I'd just been ghosted after a second or third round interview and I was kind of not feeling great. So maybe there was a little bit more emotion in my voice at that point that wasn't intended or directed towards her. Speaker 3 (30:23) I think maybe there was stress and worry, but there was also more positive components to it than there are now. I feel like I was worrying about... Are we setting aside enough for retirement? Am I structuring these savings in a way that makes sense? But there was also this trade-off of, oh, hey, but if we do this, we can also travel. Or, hey, if we do this, we can also do these other positive things. And I feel like what's been lost more so is I'm not thinking about that anymore. Speaker 1 (30:53) The positive parts. Speaker 3 (30:55) Yeah. I feel like some of the extra income and some of the extra that we had was going towards. Fun. Fun. Quote unquote fun. And now we're in a position where like I feel like I've cut all of that and what's left is this and it feels much heavier. Speaker 2 (31:10) If and when Ryan gets a job that you will both feel good about money? I Speaker 3 (31:15) think I would feel better, but I think I'm also in a position now where I still like this, this is, this is a new threat or new anxiety that's been introduced where I'm still thinking about like our, our system set up. well enough as he set up well enough so that we could move forward. Speaker 2 (31:32) What's your answer to my question? Would you feel good about money? Speaker 3 (31:36) Say, I want to say yes, but the answer is probably not immediately or not easily. I Speaker 2 (31:43) think the answer is no. Yeah. I don't know why it's so difficult to acknowledge there are parts of yourself that may be at odds with the way that you want to present yourself. Speaker 1 (31:53) I Speaker 2 (31:53) feel like I'm battling with a ghost right now. Every question I ask, I'm getting defensive reactions. And well, I should feel like that. I'd like to think I would feel like that. But it's all a bit of a show. And I wonder if you do that here, how much of that is happening? When the two of you talk to each other. Speaker 1 (32:12) Yeah, I mean, that's quite possible. You brought up the example of what she'd be worried about money. I think we both would be anyway, because we were, we were super comfortable, basically. Like we had twice the income we have now and our expenses were pretty minimal. We're contributing like above advised levels to like our retirement. And I still felt like I had like