277. "He has $100K of debt. Should I still marry him?"

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Randy and Mack, a couple in their early 30s planning to marry, face financial tension due to Mack's $100,000 debt while Randy has a positive

Key takeaways

The real issue isn't the debt amount but emotional dynamics around financial responsibility and perceived burden.
Mack already has a realistic plan to become debt-free in under four years, showing commitment and discipline.

Main topics

Debt management in relationships
Financial transparency and trust

Notable quotes

"I feel handcuffed into funding his rich life with my wallet." – Randy

Conclusion

With clear communication, shared financial systems, and emotional alignment, Randy and Mack

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) If you have ever wanted to sit down and have me walk you through your numbers so you know what to focus on next, now you can. Join me on Thursday, September 17th, where I'm gonna show you why your budget keeps failing and how to fix it in 30 minutes. On the call, I'm gonna walk you through how to create a conscious spending plan so that you can just focus on four numbers. Not 50, not how much potatoes cost, just four numbers. I'll do a live Q &A. So bring your questions. If you know that keeping a budget is not working for you, there's a lot of other people like you. Let me help you fix it. Reserve your spot right now for free at iwt.com slash budget. Speaker 4 (0:41) I have $100,000 in debt. As we're talking about eventually getting married, I just had this feeling that this was going to become a much bigger problem. Speaker 3 (0:48) It became an emotional toll on me. It's a net negative. It's not. building towards something. It's actually just an anchor. It was like, how fast can we pay this off? How fast can we pay this off? Did you become part of the debt payoff? Speaker 4 (1:01) No, I didn't. It's a bit of a mixed message. There's a little bit of whiplash of feeling supported and understood to suddenly being like judged. I've become a problem to solve. Our Speaker 3 (1:12) money conversations tend to end with us going our separate ways. Emotionally, you get very charged up about it. I even feel it right now. It's just like, Speaker 1 (1:19) this is too much. I really don't want to. do Speaker 4 (1:22) it. Speaker 1 (1:22) The way you've constructed your world is that I need to feel horrible about money. And when people feel horrible about something, they don't engage in it. Neither of you have recalibrated your relationship. What's going on there? I Speaker 3 (1:34) just don't trust that it's not going to continue to snowball in a way that's uncontrollable. If we're going to have a future together, there's an element of like, it's not possible. Speaker 1 (1:43) Today, I'm speaking with Randy and Mac, 31 and 33 years old. They are in a relationship and they are talking about getting married soon. Randy is the one who applied. Here's what he wrote. We're not married yet, but plan to combine finances when we are. A meaningful chunk of my income ends up going towards his debt and our shared fun, and I feel handcuffed into funding his rich life with my wallet. The deeper roadblock is we haven't aligned on what we're actually building. That's a pretty perceptive comment. The idea that the mechanics may be working functionally, but the dynamic underneath is not. I'm going to pull up their conscious spending plan. Let's take a look. We have a total net worth of $45,000, but it's quite different. Randy has a net worth of $102,000. Mac has a net worth of negative $56,000. Debt is where things really become different. Randy has $12,000 of debt. Mac has... $100,000 of debt. Wow. Combined monthly income, $25,833. For a couple in their early 30s, that's a lot of money. We have Randy making 15K a month gross. Mac is making 10K a month gross. That's great. Fixed costs at 63%. But if you break it down individually, Randy's at 47 % and Mac is at 87%. I got to say, I'm really glad that I get to talk to Randy and Mac. before they get married. Doing things preventatively with your money can make all the difference. The question I have is, do they have a compatible vision of a rich life? Let's find out. Let's meet Randy and Mac. I took a look at the application. You filled it out, right, Randy? Okay. You wrote in there, quote, I feel handcuffed into funding his rich life with my wallet. Tell me about that. Speaker 3 (3:35) I do make more than Mac right at the moment. And I do think that there's an element of like, without me, it's not possible. And it feels a little bit like everything is kind of reliant on me to be successful and not necessarily us to be successful. You use Speaker 1 (3:49) the word handcuffed. Speaker 3 (3:51) What does that mean? The feeling ultimately is that if I were to leave, the problem becomes his, but that also puts him in a bad spot and I don't want to do that. So handcuffed in the sense that we're in this together, but you kind of are the only one carrying the load. As far as you're the only one as far as the fun parts of life. Yes What's your Speaker 4 (4:11) take on Speaker 3 (4:11) it Speaker 4 (4:12) mac? Uh when I first read that line, I was pretty offended by it. Um, why? it feels very much like Like the whole of me is at net burden and that's kind of how I felt but now that we've had like more chances to talk about that I understand and there is an element of truth to that so That both feels good and then it's like okay. Yeah, that's a good point We need to figure that out but also feels bad because then it's hard for me to not internalize that even more of like Speaker 1 (4:45) wow, like I really am a problem. Speaker 4 (4:48) And Speaker 1 (4:48) do you think that you are a financial problem? Speaker 4 (4:51) I'm certainly financially complicated. Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:54) I Speaker 4 (4:55) mean, I think we both Speaker 1 (4:56) are in a spot where Speaker 4 (4:57) the amount of debt that I have, I don't particularly want it to be Randy's problem. Got it. But it's also not something that can just be fixed like that. Speaker 1 (5:07) How long have the two of you been together? Going on four years. Speaker 3 (5:10) Four Speaker 1 (5:10) years. Speaker 3 (5:11) Okay. Speaker 1 (5:11) And is there a plan? To be married one day? I would like to. Yeah. Speaker 3 (5:16) Yeah. Speaker 1 (5:16) Has there been a discussion that you have to pay your debt off before you get married? Maybe not in so many words, but I think originally that was Speaker 4 (5:25) your plan. Yes. My plan was to keep this my problem for as long as I could. And? Speaker 1 (5:34) Why did it get so quiet in here? I Speaker 4 (5:38) am also feeling very much like... Speaker 4 (5:42) I need some help. And while that's not like your job, it is something where it's like, okay, everybody brings something they need help with to a relationship. My interest happens to have numbers on it. And we can probably be getting a lot closer to what we would want to have together if we work together on it. But it's hard to have that conversation because where I am, I can't put more than what I'm already doing. Like the numbers don't really work for me to be like, doing a rapid payoff or anything like that. So it kind of becomes this unanswered question that's just sitting in every conversation of like, I don't particularly want Randy to feel like he has to be contributing. And I don't think you want to, I don't know who would, but at the same time, it's kind of, if we're going to have a life together, it's going to be something that's there in the way always. Are your finances combined? Speaker 3 (6:32) No. I mean. at least not in the practical sense. We're aware of how much we have in each other's bank accounts, but they're not combined right now. We do have a joint account, which I actually am going to like put our money into so we can just withdraw from that. So it stops being so chaotic. What about like the rent? How's that paid? Right now we just split it in half. Speaker 1 (6:53) Yeah. 50 Speaker 3 (6:53) -50. Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:54) Ah, okay. And so the money goes into some account. which then pays the rent. Is that how it works? No, currently Speaker 3 (7:02) it's Venmo, Speaker 1 (7:03) but we Speaker 4 (7:04) are moving. So the combined account is intended to be for when we do move, we're moving into more of like a corporate apartment. So there's a better system. Okay. Right now we just have a landlord. So Speaker 1 (7:14) one person pays it, the other one Venmos. We Speaker 4 (7:17) both Speaker 1 (7:17) Venmo our landlord half of the rent every month. Oh, okay. Got it. And what about like... other joint expenses, groceries, Speaker 4 (7:22) eating out? How does that work? I think we just pass back and forth the same Venmo transactions ad infinitum. How many per Speaker 1 (7:29) month Venmo transactions do you have between the two? A Speaker 3 (7:32) dozen total things, including electricity and whatnot. Okay. Speaker 4 (7:36) Yeah. Sometimes it'll be a month where it's like, oh, this came up. It was about $100. Like, oh, I spent $100 over here. Like, okay, cool. That cancels out. Generally, it feels pretty fair. Speaker 1 (7:46) Okay. Now- Randy, I understand that you have a financial system. I love a good system. Can you describe the financial system that you've built? Speaker 3 (7:53) Yeah. I mean, I can kind of sum it up in one sentence, pay yourself first and then do whatever else you want to do with it. Okay. Speaker 1 (8:00) So you have money automatically going to savings, investing, that kind of thing? Yeah. 401k and then Roth and then savings and then the rest kind of trickles down. How does his finances slot into this system of yours? Speaker 3 (8:11) They don't, I think largely due to the lack of a system. that's in there. I think there's also just the cumbersome nature of having like disjoint accounts that don't exactly all merge in one place and then spread out there Siloed off and you have to keep track of each other's numbers and it's not irritating Speaker 1 (8:29) to you. Speaker 3 (8:30) It's Speaker 1 (8:30) inefficient Speaker 3 (8:30) And Speaker 1 (8:32) that sounds like irritation like I love systems and if I had to deal with some orphan account over here I'd be like this sucks. I'll be irritated Yeah, Speaker 3 (8:42) I guess I guess the irritation might be a good word for it then okay. Speaker 1 (8:45) Well, and how do you deal with it right now? It seems like Venmo is the way But like, do you spend a lot of time on your own financial system? No, not anymore. No, Speaker 3 (8:54) I kind of like set it and forget it. Okay. What about you, Mac? Just hope Speaker 1 (9:00) and a prayer. Really? Very little phases me about money, but I still cannot get over how the majority of couples do not have a single substantive conversation about money, often for years at a time. And just take your own relationship because I'm genuinely curious. When was the first time that you had a substantive conversation about money? Not a five-minute conversation about who's paying, a substantive conversation. about money. Put it in the comments. I read every single one. Randy, in your application, you mentioned something. You said, in the last month, I kind of demanded to have a clear picture. What does that mean? Speaker 3 (9:43) I got a new job and I wanted to start kind of living life. And through that, I wanted to know what was happening. Like, operating in a black box about stuff doesn't work for me, especially when... the mechanics of how to solve a problem are 100 % going to have to be known and you can't do it in a black box. So what'd you do? I just asked if we could like share an app that would allow us to add our finances and see where we're at. And we did. And it's been helpful in the sense that like we know where we are and it doesn't feel very manual. It doesn't feel like a task to do. It's just there. Speaker 2 (10:21) I Speaker 3 (10:21) think that's the genesis of me wanting to understand his finances. Okay. Speaker 4 (10:25) That was where it left from being this thing that I was just trying to manage in the background and not think about too much to being like, oh, wow, this is something I need to share with my partner. We were getting very serious at that Speaker 2 (10:37) point. Speaker 4 (10:38) And also something that I just had this feeling that this was going to become a much bigger problem once it was out in the open. And it did. It did. You were right. Yeah. And Speaker 3 (10:48) when I realized what it was and how to do it, I very much. was on the team of like, how fast can we pay this off? Like, let's, you know, put a fire under this and get out of the way. How fast can we pay this Speaker 1 (11:00) off? Did you become part of the debt payoff? Speaker 3 (11:02) No, I didn't. At least I emotionally did, but I didn't physically contribute to it. But it became an emotional toll on me. Why? Because debt is one of those things where it can be a utility, but the problem with it, the way it's done here is it's a kind of net negative. It's not building towards something. It's actually just an anchor. Speaker 1 (11:22) Okay, so you asked him... How fast can we pay it off? Even though what you, it seems to me what you meant is how fast can you pay it off? Speaker 3 (11:31) Yeah. Speaker 1 (11:31) Okay. Is that a common thing? Speaker 3 (11:33) I think so. I like through kind of some of the experiences we've had recently, I've realized that a lot of the way I approach money is this is your problem versus my problem. Speaker 2 (11:43) And Speaker 3 (11:44) I'm not necessarily all set, but I'm definitely in a spot where I'm able to flex and move a little bit better and not really concern myself with the ins and outs of like managing it. Speaker 1 (11:55) curious about, it's a bit of a mixed message. Would you say that you've experienced mixed messages around money? For sure. Speaker 3 (12:02) Yeah. Speaker 1 (12:03) You said, how are we going to pay this debt off? Implying, how are you going to pay this debt off? What was your reaction to it? Speaker 4 (12:09) I think this time, it was the first time it had been talked about in a context of the logistics of us having combined finances. In the past, it had been more about, this is a thing that I'm dealing with as a person, and I'm so glad I have somebody here that I can talk to about it. But then it was suddenly becoming like actually your problem in that. So it gave you- Your problem. Well, my problem, it always had been my problem. But as we're talking about the potential of eventually getting married, combining finances, it becomes his problem too. And so the feeling, I have a very visceral feeling to talking about money. Which Speaker 1 (12:44) is what? Speaker 4 (12:45) I get very hot and my heart rate goes up. And typically I just end up checking out because- It's like in fight or flight, I just choose flight. Feel that right now? Speaker 1 (12:57) Yeah, a little bit. Okay. If you need to take a break, we can take a break. No, I'm all right. Okay. Well, good to know. What did it get you when you had that app set up? Speaker 3 (13:06) It gave me some relief to know just the answers that were happening, even if they were all wrong and everything's broken. We at least have an answer to operate with because... you can kind of backwards your way into a solution. And I'm very solution oriented. So, you know, we have debt. How do we pay it off? Avalanche, snowball doesn't matter. Like what's the fastest way to get Speaker 1 (13:29) there? Is that your role with money in this relationship? Solutions? Speaker 4 (13:34) Yes. Speaker 1 (13:36) Mac says yes. That was a quick reaction. Why? Speaker 4 (13:40) Because I don't. I have not wanted to deal with it. Speaker 1 (13:45) Oh, what is your role with Speaker 4 (13:47) money? Speaker 3 (13:48) His ideal would be for me to take it all on and tell him what he can spend. Speaker 1 (13:52) Ah, how Speaker 3 (13:53) would you describe that in a word, Mac? Speaker 4 (13:58) Probably a little dependent. Dependent. Speaker 1 (14:00) That's interesting. So we have solutions and dependent. What do you think? Speaker 4 (14:04) That is the way we talk about it. But even now, that's honestly how it's set up because everything's still separate. Speaker 3 (14:10) In Speaker 4 (14:10) an ideal world, it would be something that I don't have to think about. Speaker 4 (14:14) As we've talked more about what I actually want out of my life, our financial picture, what it would actually feel like for me to be comfortable, it's actually kind of the opposite. I would like to be involved in those discussions. I want to be able to talk with my friends about strategies or whatever. It's kind of fun when people just talk about those things. And right now, people start talking about that and I have to check out. Why? I just... If I participate in the conversation, I'm going to feel really uncomfortable. Speaker 4 (14:50) Like really embarrassed because you have debt. Yeah, and I can't I can't help but feel a little bit resentful of that not toward like other people or you or our friends, but just like in general, I feel like the reason that I have debt in the first place was not Like some of it was just that I was young and stupid But a lot of it was because a lot of things happened that were a little bit out of my control and so every time we're talking about debt or finances, all that comes up is like a pretty rough period of my life where I felt really not in control. And it's like behind me and I just want it all to be behind me. So I don't have to think about it anymore, but now I still pay two grand a month to keep thinking about it. Speaker 3 (15:31) Randy? I agree. Yeah. I think one of the problems I also see is the mitigation of a problem. Speaker 1 (15:39) Minimizing it? Speaker 3 (15:39) Yeah. It just, it seems to be a common pattern. Speaker 3 (15:45) that if I don't acknowledge the problem, the problem doesn't exist. Therefore, not something I have to think about. Speaker 1 (15:53) Do Speaker 3 (15:53) you think that the strategy you are using is working for Speaker 4 (15:57) you? Speaker 4 (15:59) I think the like soft emotional Mac is like, yeah, this is great. We've got everything set up so that in like five years it's going to be paid off and we don't have to think about it anymore. And then it's not going to be a big deal. Speaker 2 (16:10) I Speaker 4 (16:10) think the adult brain in me is like, no, this is not working because I'm not really keeping track of a lot of things. I'm just kind of. going hope and a prayer not because I'm dumb it's because it's just too stressful to have to think about it so if I can spend like twice a year putting everything in place and then just never have to look at it and just kind of assume things are going to be okay then like I don't I'm not dealing with that anxiety on a regular basis I'm Speaker 1 (16:38) gonna be pretty direct I think you have this invisible script that your ultimate goal is to not have to think about money And the fact is, if you want to get good at money, you have to pay attention to it a lot. And you actually have to find a way to enjoy it. What would that look like for you? Well, in my job, I do that a lot. Speaker 4 (17:06) I'm a project manager, so I'm dealing with a lot of budgets all the time. And one of the things I enjoy is that I'm the person who knows. all of the things that are happening at any point in time with the project. And somebody comes to me and says, I need to know what, you know, this invoice was. And I can respond immediately and say, I know exactly what that was and what it came from. What would it look like for you to do that with your finances? Speaker 1 (17:29) I Speaker 4 (17:29) mean, I would, I think it would actually be really fun to be able to say like, I know exactly what's in this account and where it's going. I know exactly what the target is. I know that, you know, we want to. Say for a vacation that we're going to take in 2027 and we're going to retire at 62 years and this is where we are on that journey. I do a lot of tracking and managing projects and I find that fun. And I don't really do that with my own finances. I think one thing that I didn't notice and so we started talking about it a little bit more is I've been in some level of the finance world my whole career, often with extremely large transactions. I think there is a little bit of a skew that I still have of like, okay, yeah, I have $100,000 in debt, but I spent $150 million last week at work. So like, I understand obviously mathematically how much that is, but I don't think it has the same impact as it does you because I am used to dealing with numbers and it's like, wow, that's a lot. That's going to take some time to pay off. But like- Finish the sentence. Could be worse. Could be worse. Yeah. Right. Also a little bit of- it's someone else's money at work. So it's a little more, I don't know, esoteric. Whereas when it comes down to me, it's just like, yeah, I even feel it right now. It's just like, this is too much. I really don't want to like go do it. And it's just like an overwhelm factor. Okay. Speaker 1 (18:53) This happens every so often on this podcast. I remember speaking to somebody who was struggling with their own personal finances and you know what they do for a job? They teach personal finance in high school. Mac obviously has the skills. to know this stuff about personal finance or learn it. But when he comes home, he sees himself as passive with money, also not particularly good with money, and somebody who's made a lot of mistakes and he doesn't really want to pay attention to it anymore. So it's one thing from the outside to look at this person and say, look, you have the skills, obviously, but it's quite another to take those skills and transfer them to your own personal life. I hope I can get him to connect the skills he already has to this issue with his personal finances. I have a simple rule in my life. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. If it's important to me, I want to put it on my calendar. Work meetings, haircuts, dinners with friends, taking a trip. This calendar is shared so that other important people in my life can also get on the same page. Now, if you're trying to figure out your schedule for you and your kids, your family, that becomes even more complicated, which is why so many families love Skylight Calendar. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, et cetera, making it easier to instantly look at your day, week, or month plans. With Skylight Calendar, you can manage events, chores, and grocery lists by assigning colors for each of your family members, meaning no one can say they didn't know what they needed to do. My coworkers say it's a game changer for their families. Plus, it comes with a four-month, 100 % happiness guarantee. If you don't love it after four months, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash Ramit. Go to myskylight.com slash Ramit for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash Ramit. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision. and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com slash Ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. I want to take a look at the numbers. What was it like to put the conscious spending plan together? Speaker 3 (22:42) I don't know that it was enlightening because we've done it. We've tried to do it so many different ways that we've, you know, flavor over the week at this point. Speaker 1 (22:49) So Speaker 3 (22:49) none of the numbers particularly surprising, but... they side by side like showed a pretty stark discrepancy. Okay. Did you know this discrepancy? Speaker 2 (22:59) Yeah, at Speaker 3 (23:00) least I did. I think intellectually we knew, but Speaker 4 (23:04) like seeing it like right there, the actual numbers is like, okay, Speaker 1 (23:08) yeah, that's what I was feeling, but this is definitely different. Speaker 4 (23:11) Yeah.