How To Make Your Creativity Beat The Algorithm (Live Performance) - Dylan Gossett - #1155

Modern Wisdom

Country singer Dylan Gossett joins Chris Williamson to discuss his rapid ascent to fame following the viral success of his song 'Coal.' The

Key takeaways

Dylan Gossett wrote his breakout hit 'Coal' in approximately 25 minutes.
The success of 'Coal' was driven by organic sharing on social media despite Gossett's initial aversion to being a 'TikToker'.

Main topics

Viral music success
The business of artistry

Notable quotes

Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a profound meditation on how creators can find s

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live. Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left, and you can get yours now at chriswilliamson.live. This is a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent over a year working on it. So, if you're a fan of everything Modern Wisdom, come and see me on stage this October around the UK and Ireland. chriswilliamson.live. Speaker 1 (0:21) Well, I'm heading back to Austin. Speaker 1 (0:27) again. Something to keep me busy. Keep these hands from tripping. And it's something like the weather to try and mark my mind. I'll try to think of something clever to keep me satisfied. I'll take burning a weekend straight down 29 past the cedars and believer in job. When I get out of Speaker 1 (1:41) That's fun. Speaker 1 (3:54) Thank Speaker 3 (3:54) you. Speaker 1 (3:54) Dude. Speaker 3 (3:55) Yeah. Unbelievable. So good. Thank Speaker 2 (3:58) you very much. Speaker 3 (3:58) Great to see you. Speaker 2 (3:59) That one's about Austin, Texas, obviously. Very timely. Yeah. Speaker 3 (4:05) Did you write most of Cole in 25 minutes? Is that right? Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:08) Yeah. Cole was written one of the fastest ones I've probably ever written. Yeah. It started, I can kind of show you. So it started just with. Speaker 2 (4:21) Maybe not this exact chord progression. It was a little bit different. I might have an old video that I could show you, but I think it started with kind of that hook. They say pressure makes diamonds have a hit. I was like, that's great. That's a song. We got to build around it. Yeah, verse by verse. I remember I had my phone typing on top of our dog kennel in the apartment at the time. It was right before we went out with some work friends, and none of my friends knew I sung at all. I didn't. I don't know. I just don't go around telling people. And Rolt Cole went out and Julia, my wife, was just stoked on it. She was like, this is so sick. And she was just showing people like Snapchat videos of the song. Speaker 1 (5:02) She was like, you know, just, what do y'all think about this? And they're like, Dylan, you sing? And I was like, Speaker 2 (5:07) cat's out of the bag, I guess. And then didn't do anything with it for like a year or two. No way. You sat Speaker 3 (5:14) on that. You sat on a song that did like half a billion streams. Yeah. For a year or two. I Speaker 2 (5:18) wasn't. I wasn't on socials. I wasn't putting anything out. I didn't do anything until we were on a camping trip with my buddy Kaden and his now wife MK and my wife and I, Julia. And I brought my guitar and was just playing some songs. And Kaden has like the best ear of anyone I know. He's like an A &R that doesn't work in A &R. And he heard Cole and he's like, please sing it again. He's like voice memoed it. And he's like, you got to do something. You have to do something. And my wife was like, Dylan, you should just post on TikTok. And I was like, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not a TikToker. I was like, I honestly can't stand it. Like, I don't, I just, it's not my thing. But yeah, I started doing it. And then Cole became this thing, which is insane. Speaker 3 (6:00) One of my buddies, I was best man at his wedding, godfather to his kid. And he was playing. We were at a friend's house who has a karaoke machine. And I don't even know why there was a guitar there. And he'd been doing exactly the same thing. I bullied him, bullied him. I was like, no, come on, come on. Because the choice was between him playing acoustic guitar with a beautiful voice and one of our friends' sad emo rapping. And I was like, hey, look, the decision is really easy for me to make in terms of oppression. The fucking floor, dude, is so low for you to get over here. So I'm interested. Where were you in life when you were doing those lyrics? What is that song? Speaker 2 (6:39) So I was living in Austin. I worked in, are you talking about Cole? Yeah, Speaker 1 (6:43) yeah, Speaker 2 (6:43) yeah. So I was living in Austin. I was working at the racetrack, the Circuit of the Americas down here. So I was, at the time, I was in event operations. I think I was, I started as an intern. I used to live there in like a trailer in my parents' RV for months. And I just lived at the job site. But I, yeah, I was working there and I might've just kind of been through like a tough season. Like F1 season is just kind of brutal, especially for like the outside guys. You're just, I mean, it's just like 20 hour days that you're living out there when it's F1 time. And I don't know, it was like that. It might've been some, you know, interpersonal family thing, you know, whatever it might've been at the time. And, you know, I always try to say like, it's a pretty deep kind of dark song. But I try to tell people I wasn't in like the worst spot of my life, you know, but I was just going through everyday struggles, you know, just like everybody does. And that's kind of what it was. I felt like I was in a pit. I was like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not really like, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm chasing anything right now. Like I'm having a great life. Like me and my wife and our dog, like we're having great, like we're very happy. And I was like, but a lot of other stuff, we were just like, you know. Speaker 3 (7:58) whatever you know so it's interesting there's like a input output equation i think a lot of people feel and if you're putting lots in the goal the hope is that something's going to come out on the other side of it but you have this sort of latent leverage after a while like you build up you know you pull back an elastic band and you pull it back and pull it back and pull it back and pull it back and Speaker 3 (8:20) We hope that life is going to be a bit more linear, but a lot of the time you're kind of just accumulating reps or doing something, maybe not even doing what, and putting in more work than you will do in future and not seeing the rewards. I think that's why, you know, the top comment, Cole's got 22 million plays on YouTube. The top comment says, this song has the feeling when you're working on yourself and making progress, but you still feel lonely and like a failure. Speaker 2 (8:42) Yeah. Honestly, that's a great way to put it. Like that's how it felt, I guess, is like. It just felt like we were putting the hours in almost, you know, it was like we're doing it, but I don't know. It's like, we don't feel any different. But now I almost see now it's like without, like if Cole happened, let's say, you know, I was writing about other stuff and Cole happened five years earlier. No way. There's no way that I think I would be touring doing the same thing that we're doing right now. Why? Because without, I think without going through that job and understanding. Speaker 2 (9:16) even personal relationships outside of college, like just kind of real world items. Like, I don't know. I feel like I can't even imagine being thrown into the music industry or trying to write songs or any of that without, I feel like having a real frame of reference to come back to. Does that make sense? Like I, dude, even music as an artist, I think people don't understand it is such a business. Like I think people imagine. artists and myself just being like, look, I strum the guitar. I show up to shows. We collect our money and that's our lot. Like that's, I feel there's Speaker 3 (9:51) a Speaker 2 (9:51) time where I feel a lot more like a business manager than, than an artist for sure. There's a book Speaker 3 (9:57) called the E-Myth Revisited by, I think it's Michael Gerber. It's like just a business book, but it's quite, it's quite well done. And he tells this fictional story in there of Speaker 2 (10:06) a Speaker 3 (10:06) woman who runs a bakery and this woman loves making cakes, which he loves to do. and she's made cakes for the family and she makes cake for her friends and it's her passion and she's great at it and everyone's best cakes. I'm going to open a bakery. Wouldn't that be cool? Small local bakery. So she opens a bakery and then it gets popular because she makes great cakes. But she needs to hire some staff and some staff come in. And the staff start to make some of Speaker 2 (10:29) the Speaker 3 (10:29) cakes and she's involved in the ingredients and the recipes and the releases, but then there's accounts to do. And she grows a little bit more and then she gets a factory and she's spending a little bit less time making cakes. And before she knows it, she hasn't made a fucking cake in years. And this, no matter what industry you're in. Speaker 3 (10:48) You have to learn to be able to say no to things or to focus on stuff that previously you would have begged to have had the opportunity to say yes to. I want to be in the room with the A &R person or you're a writer and you have all of the opportunities to go and do speaking gigs. Why were you great as a writer? What made you great as a blogger on Substack or as an author that writes books or whatever it is? It was because of the time that you spent like stewing in your ideas, right? Like marinating in this stuff. It was the three-hour walks that you took with the dog. And all of that time gets squeezed because we can't see. Speaker 3 (11:23) basically like obvious productivity is really easy to track. How many hours did you spend on Slack today? Or how many emails did you send? I've got a full back-to-back day of scheduled calls. This must make me really important. And you go, well, how useful is it for you to go fishing for an afternoon with nothing else happening? You go, well, I worked really hard today. I went fishing. The Puritan work ethic, the guilt that comes up because it's like, I should be working harder, but that's not what necessarily got you here. Speaker 2 (11:49) No, and it's so strict. Because yeah, because... Speaker 2 (11:53) expectations change from everyone involved too, right? Like it's the fans have different expectations of the listeners. I have a different expectation as myself, as I put up more and more albums. Back when I was writing Cole, I was not writing it for anything. I was just like, this is my outlet. This is my passion. I love playing guitar. I'm just going to pick it up and write. I had no reason to do that, but I wanted to, because that was just what I was so passionate about. Kind of like the bakery, like she wants to just bake. She wants to bake some fucking cakes. And now it's like, dude, like. Three years, three and a half years later, or I guess from Cole writing, it's like five years. But looking back, like if I wrote that exact same song today and I, like if I hear the version of Cole right now, I would be like, what is this demo? I would never put that out, you know? And it's like, I tried to remind myself like when I'm in the studio and cause like that was just, that song was just made on my laptop on the edge of my bed. Like that's where Cole was recorded, engineered. The only thing I didn't do on that song was master it, which actually I put it out. we had to retake it down to remaster it because it was so... The levels were all over. It was just off. It didn't blend in with other music. So yeah, it's so strange. You've got to find that passion, which I still have it. Speaker 3 (13:05) And Speaker 2 (13:05) I think, obviously, I'm going to talk about the struggles of music because there are some, but the last thing I'm going to be is ungrateful for what it is. I'm living my dream. Whenever I have struggles in this industry, because there are, Kind of like you said it's like four years ago I would have killed to be stressing out about putting my album out, you know Oh, I have to go sign vinyls in Nashville. I would have died for that dude, you know So I I don't know I I just I have to remind myself that my wife has reminds me that all the time She's just like my my number one supporter and just like the greatest teammate in the world. So Yeah, it's such just it's the goalpost just changed. Isn't it crazy station? Speaker 3 (13:47) Oh You know about habituation and hedonic treadmill, right? Like you can't wait to get a new car. You spend all of your time thinking about this new car. You get the new car and then after six months, you're sort of bored of it. You're looking after the next one. What nobody really talks about is the same thing, but with goals and problems, right? That you wanted to have to do soundcheck. I just wish that I had a team of people who would maybe tune my fucking guitar before I go out there. And then... You've got to negotiate because one of the fucking guitar techs has had to leave. So we need to get a new guitar tech. Hang on. So you're telling me that the person I... pleaded, like begged, prayed to have, I now need to get a replacement for. And that feels like a burden to me. And we get accustomed to a different quality of life, a different level of ease or something. And yeah, I've always thought it would be really cool if you could take photos of your own mind and go back and visit them like you can with a photograph. What would it be like to go back to the... texture of your mind from four years ago. Even just plug it in. What problems? Yeah. What problems were you thinking about? What, what, what concerned you as you fell asleep? Money worries. Am I going to make, I'm fucking circuit of the America. I'm boiling hot on the fucking golf cart. Can we do verse call it a little, a little cold? Speaker 2 (15:02) Yeah, let's do it. Beautiful. Yeah. This was like the, cause you know, it's funny. I posted a video of call way early on and no one cared. Uh, it didn't do anything. But I was fine with that. I was like, I already stuck to it. I'm just going to keep posting. I didn't post Cole again until after To Be Free happened, the first song ever put out. Because I was like, I have a little traction now. I should try to, I was like, I really, really believe in the song. Like the writing on it's really good. And then it was like, yeah, over, like that video changed. Speaker 3 (15:28) Why did you do that in Cole? Why did you do that pre-chorus? Because you don't drop like the line until the second time it comes around. Why did you make that creative decision? Speaker 2 (15:37) Two things. At the time when TikTok. Speaker 2 (15:41) I hated what music promotion was. I hated that it was like, okay, we're gonna hear this 15 second clip of bad lyrics. Lyrics weren't even on the screen really at this time. Like people weren't like, I don't know. It was just like all about a 15 second clip that people can just repost and redo videos to dance or whatever it was. And what they would do is they would get all these pre-saves lined up, pre-save, pre-save. And they would just extend this thing for just months. And what I did with Cole. was like, I think the strength of this song is in the writing. It's not necessarily, I think the hook is like this huge payoff at the very end that the people who listen to it are going to get. At the time, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I should probably shave that off because a 20 second video is going to have a lot more views than a 45 second video, like you're saying. But I also just liked the writing of it. I don't know, like the, I've seen heaven without dying, but the devil without trying. Like I was super proud of that. And I was like, I think that's a good hook to bring. Who knows? If I started with the chorus, it might've never happened. If it was a dark sky instead of a sunny day when I was recording, it might've never happened. I think about that stuff all the time. I did like five different videos that day and I just chose that one. I was like, there's a chance that that video didn't go. I never posted Cole again and we're not having this conversation. You know what I mean? So it's, yeah, I don't know. I also like... I'm a big believer in that things happen for a reason. So that also gives me peace of mind. I don't know. But yeah, so. Speaker 1 (17:32) But I'm all out of luck now and my dreams aren't worth a buck. How it's tough trying to land on my feet. This game of life plays heavy on my heart. And love is tough, but loneliness is twice as hard. I'll carry that bat everywhere I go. They say pressure makes diamonds. How the hell am I still cold? Speaker 2 (18:08) Yeah, that was the clip. So good. Speaker 3 (18:11) So, I mean, do you think deliberately looking unpolished is now its own kind of marketing? Because as soon as somebody does it on the deck and it's successful, like everything becomes commercialized. Like authenticity is really difficult to survive. Once a team recognizes it's got commercial value and then that kind of kills what authenticity is because people are now performing authenticity. Speaker 2 (18:34) Yeah. I mean, so that was something, I mean, it's honestly, it's still something I obsess over of like, and I don't obsess over it in a way of like, how Speaker 1 (18:43) do we make this look and feel, you know, because Speaker 2 (18:45) people are smarter than they ever are. Like, dude, you're not going to fake it. And people do. And maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe people do believe a lot of. self is authentic when it's just absolutely not but um i don't know i just feel like i try to stay true to what my mind was thinking when i first got into this thing of like there's lines i won't cross uh like what like i would never sacrifice um Speaker 2 (19:18) For a while, I wouldn't even run ads. I wouldn't do anything. I would not. And I drove my team crazy. And I guarantee you, I probably took a hit on a lot of things for that. And maybe I was overthinking it, but I was just like, look, I just, I don't want to just all of a sudden, like you said, it's like, we know this thing works. I don't want to all of a sudden just dive in. Everyone's telling me, well, wait. That's the formula. Yeah, here's the formula. Don't put it out right now. Wait three months, get your pre-saves up. post it 30 more times. I posted a call in total, even like today, I think it's been like seven to 10 times ever. You're kidding. Ever. Now, when it came out, I think I posted it four times. And what people would tell you now is like, no, you got to post, you got to post this on 15 times, you know? And it's like. I don't know. It's just such this weird thing in the, in music right now where there's so many people doing it. So like, you've got to get out there somehow and you've got to, you've got to separate yourself somehow. Like it's, it's even 10 X of whenever I like Cole came out of like the amount of people kind of playing this type of music. Um, and I, I don't know. I really don't have the answer to like how to separate. Cause everyone's doing the authentic thing now and everything, everyone's doing the polished thing. Like there's just so many things. And I Speaker 3 (20:32) think. in your world and in my world um the ends of the barbell are where people are succeeding so yeah very very produced right like super super polished or very raw and stripped back and i think the middle is where people seem to go to die yeah at the moment um but looking at talking about the growth of the music industry billboard top 10 from 2020 to 2023 rap music 34 country music 7 25 to 26. Country music, 27%. Rap music, 17%. So rap music's gone in half and country music's 4x'd. Speaker 2 (21:09) That's incredible. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean... I think it's Speaker 3 (21:14) the Speaker 2 (21:14) natural way of things. Like, I think at some point country will be back down and rap will be back up. Like, and that's fine. They're the two ends of the... You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (21:22) But also, like, country is Speaker 2 (21:25) not what country was in 2020. Like... I mean, I hear songs right now that are charting or whatever that I'm like, that's a great song. I love it. I wouldn't call it country, but sure. It's got acoustic guitar in it. Let's do it. That's country. But yeah, it's cool. I think at some point it'll go back. There'll be like a whole new wave of hip hop or something that comes in, which is cool too. A quick aside, if you've wanted an 8 Speaker 3 (21:52) sleep but could never quite justify the price, things just got very interesting. They've somehow managed to make it significantly better and cheaper at the same time. Introducing the brand new Pod 6. It's now 50 % smaller, meaning it fits under most bed frames. And there are nine times more sensors built into it. Despite all of these upgrades, the Pod 6 now starts at just one. $8,999, the lowest starting price Eight Sleep has ever offered. 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Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 6 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom. a checkout that's e-i-g-h-t sleep.com slash modern Speaker 2 (22:45) wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout what's Speaker 3 (22:48) interesting is how virality can reward different behaviors because as soon as you find a way to make something become effective everybody's going to start to play that i guess how do you tell the difference between a song that's good and a song that's just algorithm friendly oh Speaker 2 (23:03) i mean Speaker 2 (23:08) I feel like I have a bad view on this because I'm in it. So I feel like I can pretty easily see when something has something pushing it. I kind of know what the markers are. When I hear a song that's trending and I'll go look at the audio or whatever and I'm like, okay, they got a team. They're running this thing. What are some of the indications? Like, okay, you'll see... you'll see a song come out and there's a thousand truck edits to it or something. And I'm like, what's Speaker 1 (23:44) a Speaker 2 (23:44) truck edit? Like, okay. For like, you'll see, you'll see a new song come out and it'll be like a video of an account. But all they do is just truck videos with like cool moody lighting lyrics on the top. And they put a song to it. I Speaker 3 (23:59) didn't realize this was an ecosystem on. Oh, it's not just truck. ecosystem, truck Instagram ecosystem. Yeah, Speaker 2 (24:05) that's a Speaker 3 (24:05) big thing. And Speaker 2 (24:06) again, it's a smart thing because a lot of people follow those accounts