Female Psychopath Explains How She Manipulates Men - Kanika Batra - #1142

Modern Wisdom

Kanika Batra, an Australian content creator and author diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, shares her insights into the mind of a psychopath. She

Key takeaways

• Psychopaths are not entirely emotionless; they can mimic emotions but lack genuine empathy or remorse.
• Factor one psychopathy (cold, calculated) differs from factor two (impulsive, violent), with Batra identifying as a factor one due to her ability to plan and control behavior over long periods.

Main topics

• Antisocial personality disorder
• Psychopathy (factor one vs. factor two)

Notable quotes

I can cry on command. So I can just go to the funeral and cry.

I don't have a lot to lose by lying. People know who I am.

Conclusion

Kanika Batra presents a deeply personal and introspective account of living with antisocial personality disorder,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) You're a diagnosed sociopath. You also say that you're the most manipulative person I'll ever meet and that you can lie better than anybody. Why should I believe anything that you're about to tell me? Speaker 4 (0:12) I don't have a lot to lose by lying. People know who I am. People know that I can manipulate in many different ways. It's just an idea of I understand that you're a certain type of person and I know how to work every type of person. But I can verify my diagnosis through independent sources like Business Insider. Speaker 2 (0:34) Why should I believe anything you're going to tell me over the next couple of hours? Why wouldn't you just manipulate your way through the entire conversation? Speaker 4 (0:40) Because I'm lifting the mask, okay? I'm lifting the mask. I did it before. I'm going to do it again. I'm going to give you raw and unfiltered. And then you can just cut out whatever you don't like. Speaker 2 (0:49) That sounds good to me. Should I be scared of you? Speaker 4 (0:52) Absolutely not. I'm five for one. What am I going to do? Speaker 2 (0:58) That's fair. That's fair. Okay. So what is a sociopath? What's your specific diagnosis? Speaker 4 (1:03) So I've been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder as well as narcissistic personality disorder. And I fit the profile, my psychiatrist says, of a factor one psychopath. Because psychopathy actually comes from narcissism. So the glibness, the superficial charm, the ability to essentially go from one job to another. being able to pathologically lie, all of those, and being very grandiose. They're all very narcissistic traits. So that's where psychopath, like psychopath diverges into factor one and factor two. Factor one is primary psychopathy. So that's basically your engine running. Factor two is... you're causing a lot of problems to society. It's like the more anti-societal norm behavior. So it's like, you know, being a truant, stealing, lying to people, committing crimes that would put you in prison, all of the reckless stuff that we tend to do. Speaker 6 (2:01) So Speaker 4 (2:01) I lean more onto the factor one because I've had a brain scan and my amygdala does not light up. It just doesn't. So I know what people are feeling. I just will never feel it. And I know how to mimic an accurate response, something that they would want to see. Like if someone's just died, right? My friend died last week. I just, I can cry on command. So I can just go to the funeral and cry. Speaker 2 (2:31) You seem distraught about it. Speaker 4 (2:32) Oh, I am. I only knew her for about four years. Speaker 2 (2:37) That's kind of long for a lot of people. Friendships longish. Okay. Talk to me about the DSM. Sociopath isn't a diagnosis. It's more a colloquial term for antisocial personality disorder. I Speaker 4 (2:52) wanted to explain that because everyone keeps getting at me like, sociopath isn't a real thing. Or I thought you were a sociopath and then you're saying psychopath. Okay, so antisocial personality disorder is one of the bases of psychopathy, factor one and factor two. So factor one completely lacks anxiety and has no fear response, which is me. Factor two is they do get a lot of anxiety. They get very violent. They're very aggressive. They do not have a conscience. They are unable to feel guilt for anything that they've done, but they are hot-tempered, whereas I'm cold. Essentially, I can plan over months and months if I'm trying to achieve something. For factor two, if you just say something that they find offensive, they will blow up. They will- Speaker 2 (3:37) More impulsive. Speaker 4 (3:38) Yeah, way more impulsive, way more chaotic, more likely to go to prison. Speaker 2 (3:43) Interesting. More dangerous or less dangerous? Speaker 4 (3:47) It depends because a factor one psychopath, let's say, I don't know, a good representation would be Hannibal Lecter. Like, I think he's a bit of a threat. Sort of Speaker 2 (3:59) more chilling than terrifying. Speaker 4 (4:01) Yeah, exactly. So factor one is chilling. Factor two is this guy's going to set me on fire right now. What Speaker 2 (4:07) about the antisocial personality disorder? What's that consistent? So Speaker 4 (4:10) antisocial, the basic traits that you need is like a lack of remorse, lack of guilt, lack of empathy. Speaker 4 (4:18) Having antisocial crimes, so antisocial norms, so this can include hurting animals, hurting children, hurting other people around you, those are sort of the hallmarks of antisocial personality. And then when you combine antisocial and narcissistic and put them together, you get either a malignant narcissist or the kind of psychopath that will absolutely ruin your life. Speaker 2 (4:44) What was childhood like for you? Speaker 4 (4:49) It was fine. I used to witness a lot of domestic violence. So my father was aggressive towards my mother and my brother. I was never treated badly by my dad. He bought me anything I wanted. He essentially never said no to me. Like we had just flown to Australia from New Zealand and I was five or so and I said I wanted a specific Barbie doll and he walked three kilometers to go get it. Even though it was jet lagged, you know, it was like, because we had to pack up all our stuff and move. And so that was something that I had. My mom would beat the shit out of me though, because- Speaker 2 (5:27) So dad beat mom and mom beat you. Speaker 4 (5:29) Yes. But I didn't mind because it's like, that's the kind of discipline that I think I needed because I was a menace. I was an absolute menace. I was a truant. I used to lie, I used to steal. I used to physically harm people. I used to harm other children as well. mostly my age. Like I pushed a girl down the stairs and she broke her leg in three different places. And then I got her suspended because I said that she made a racist claim, which she didn't, but she was the kind of person who you could believe would say something like that. So... How Speaker 2 (6:06) old were you? Speaker 4 (6:06) 14. Speaker 4 (6:09) Yeah, so pretty early on I had conduct disorder and I had callous unemotional traits. I guess that's why I got the antisocial personality disorder. It kind of is a precursor to that. But I would say in terms of the rest of my childhood, I also had thalassemia. So it's a blood disorder where my bone marrow can't produce its own red blood cells. So I have to get transfusions every three to four weeks. And so because of that, I got so much attention constantly. Like people were always around me, making sure that I was feeling good, you know, not sick. Speaker 2 (6:46) Kind of center of attention. Yeah. Not necessarily for a reason that you want, but you still did get a lot of attention. Speaker 4 (6:51) And then also because of that, also on top of that, I should say, is I did child modeling. So I got a lot of validation from there too. So I always got validation from everyone around me. Not for the things, but it was always for the things that I do, not me as a human. So I feel like that kind of shaped how I saw things and how I made everything very transactional. Speaker 2 (7:17) When did you realize that you were different? Speaker 4 (7:20) Probably four or five. What did that look Speaker 2 (7:23) like? Speaker 4 (7:24) It was just that I couldn't understand why people looked so happy and how they could be friends with each other and they didn't really do anything. I couldn't understand what was so attractive about a person and wanting to be their friend. I was sort of forced to deal with other people. I think it was my fourth birthday or my third birthday. I had a friend who was a really fat girl and I told my mom, like, do not let her ride my new Barbie bike. She's too fat and it will break. And she let her use the Barbie bike and it broke. So I'm just saying. But outside of that, I was like, how are people, like, how do people react, like, normally to things? Like, what's wrong with me? It just started to crystallize more around, like, I think 10, 11. It just felt like there's, like, this glass between. a wall of glass between me and other people that I can watch you. I can observe you. I can study what you do. I can see what's successful about you and I will emulate that, but I will never feel it. Like I will never understand what proper, I guess, guilt feels like. Speaker 6 (8:32) I Speaker 4 (8:32) won't feel what remorse feels like. I don't, I've never had anxiety a day in my life. Speaker 2 (8:39) What have you come to believe about whether sociopaths are born or made? Speaker 4 (8:44) So I believe that factor one psychopaths are actually born and factor two psychopaths. I know they tend to say factor one is psychopath, factor two is sociopath, but that's inaccurate terming. For factor two, I would say that's being made. You're being made. Speaker 2 (9:02) Why? Speaker 4 (9:02) Because that's after an abuse. It's usually during an abusive home life. So they experience all of the, like the volatility, they experience domestic violence. They see that this is the way to get power in life is to have physical strength and full control over another person. And it's so overwhelming for them and they turn to violent crimes because of that. And I think with both of us, like both factor one, both factor two. We have equal levels of loneliness. So we sort of channel it a little bit differently to them. Speaker 2 (9:39) Is there a history of mental illness or anything in your family? Speaker 4 (9:42) I would say my paternal side is extremely psychopathic. I know on my mom's side, there's one person who- Is Speaker 2 (9:49) there Speaker 4 (9:49) anyone Speaker 2 (9:49) worse than you? Speaker 4 (9:50) Yeah. Okay, so this is a pretty dark story. But okay, so my aunt, when she was 17- She had premarital sex with a guy who promised to marry her and then he refused to marry her and because she'd been tarnished, they weren't very happy with her and the family. So she was found burned on a stove. She had third-degree burns all over her body and she asked for a red sari to be buried, like not buried, but when she was in the hospital fighting for her life, she asked for a red sari because she believed, like, She was going to get to marry the guy that she slept with. What, Speaker 2 (10:31) a red sari, sorry? Speaker 4 (10:32) So you'd wear that at your wedding. You know a sari? Like the Indian, yeah. And so, yeah, she asked for that. And I asked my dad, like, because I didn't even know this happened because... Speaker 2 (10:41) Burned on a stove. Yeah, her head Speaker 4 (10:43) was put on the stove. And then they put kerosene on her as well for the rest. Speaker 2 (10:47) Who did? Speaker 4 (10:48) My grandfather. Speaker 2 (10:51) Because she'd had sex before marriage. And he Speaker 4 (10:53) refused to marry her, yeah. So she's tarnished. Speaker 2 (10:57) Did she survive? No, Speaker 4 (10:58) she's dead. I didn't know she existed. Like I saw a photo of four little kids and my dad's like, there's like this old box that he has. And I was like, okay, but you have two siblings. Who are these other ones? Like, which one's you? He's like, no, that's Raju and that's Baby. And Baby was the one who was killed and she was only 17. Raju died from, I think, some sort of kidney problem. Speaker 2 (11:22) Okay, yeah, that might be a little bit of a history. Speaker 4 (11:24) Yeah, and then on my mom's side, this one's crazy. So my uncle, he got married five times, different women, swindled all of them, took all of their money, took all of their happiness and sanity, and then he ended up selling my grandparents' home, which is worth a lot, a lot, to three different people. So he took the money from three different people. And he fled to America. So if he ever goes back onto Indian soil, he will be arrested. Speaker 2 (12:00) Five women swindled all of them, sold the house. Speaker 4 (12:03) Yeah, and now he's married to his childhood sweetheart. Speaker 2 (12:08) Look, you can't have a happy ending, apparently, after all of that. What do you think it was like for your parents growing up with you? Speaker 4 (12:18) My mum used to call me Shaitan, which is Satan in Hindi. Speaker 2 (12:23) Okay. Everyone's got to have a cute nickname, I suppose. Speaker 4 (12:30) I guess, yeah. Yeah, so she called me Shetan. They had problems with me early on because I was, like, attacking other children. And so they were like, oh, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, I don't know. If I knew, I wouldn't be in this position. Speaker 2 (12:48) What did that look like? Speaker 4 (12:48) It was just, I guess, because I've hurt other children. So it's not always, like, something you can discuss. I would say it's more like, apart from pushing the girl down the stairs, like I've burnt people, like I've done some things and my parents had to cover for me a lot. So that was a problem. But because I did so well academically, the teachers would always side with me. Everything was like kind of copacetic for me. And yeah, but my mom used to call me Satan. My dad calls me Guria, which means little doll. And so I got like unending affection from my dad because my first word was papa. And yeah. Speaker 2 (13:36) Do you think that there's something around the tension between dad seemingly being coddling and enabling and mum being the disciplinarian that created a bit more tension? Speaker 4 (13:47) Yeah, I'd say so because anytime I would cry or... cause like any stress in the family my dad would always always take my side and that would mean that he'd have a fight with my mom and so I guess I weaponized that a lot so it kind of created a triangulation that I didn't know was a thing back then because like I'm like I don't know seven eight nine when Speaker 2 (14:13) did this get most extreme or intense because I don't know You haven't walked in here, at least yet, you haven't attacked anybody or burnt anyone or, you know. It seems to me you're now married. You've got a husband who's come with you. That seems relatively domesticated compared with the person that we're hearing about from childhood. Speaker 4 (14:35) Yes. Speaker 2 (14:36) If you're sort of tracking over time when the most intensity of this. Speaker 2 (14:44) Rage. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk me through the timeline of sort of where that got to and where it fell off. Speaker 4 (14:50) Absolutely. So I would say the worst burst was in my teenage to early 20s. So I stole from people, including my parents. I was very violent in my high school. I would cause like not only physical damage, like I used to push this girl off her stool every morning and the stools were pretty high. They're up like here. in the science lab and so I would knock her down every single day and her legs were super bruised. I would also end up, I guess, sabotaging friends who I thought were getting more success than me or I'd get very, very angry if someone said that I wasn't as intelligent as I knew I was because of my scores. So that would result in fist fights and pulling people's hair out. Speaker 2 (15:35) But as you've said, you're 5'1". Speaker 4 (15:37) I know, but back then. I would have been Speaker 2 (15:38) smaller back then. Speaker 4 (15:39) No, I've been five foot one. I was like 12. Speaker 2 (15:41) Okay. All right, cool. Yeah. Speaker 4 (15:42) But luckily, other women are easily, like other female children, easy to neutralize and you know what to go for. If you go for the eyes, if you go for the throat, if you go to certain areas of the body, it's like no matter what your size is. You sound Speaker 2 (15:57) like the New Zealand Bass Rutan, if you know who that is. The guy from the fucking UFC. Speaker 4 (16:02) Oh. Go Speaker 2 (16:03) on. Speaker 4 (16:03) Yeah, that's brilliant. So that was bad. But then in my early 20s, it was like fraud. I would steal people's credit cards. I would go like have a competition with my friend who I believe also has antisocial personality to see what we could take from different stores. And there was actually a fair bit. I was pretty awful to people. Like I would break up with them on their birthdays, create... create drama in terms of smearing their character because I know how to do that very well. But because I was like sort of shifting a little bit because I was seeing a psychiatrist. So when I got diagnosed, like, do you want to know about that? Yes. Okay. So I got diagnosed at 21 and this was after I tried to kill myself because I tried to kill myself because I was getting migraines every day. And I was thinking, I don't want to live with this kind of pain daily. And the doctors weren't taking me seriously. My GP told me to stop calling. My neurologist said it wasn't a big deal. And I'm like, yeah, it's not a big deal for you, bro. You're not dealing with it. And so I was like, okay, fuck it. I'm going. So I took the pills, woke up in hospital, realized I'd failed. Disappointed about that. What Speaker 2 (17:17) did you do? What did you try and do? Speaker 4 (17:19) I took 15 in-depth pills, so 15 amitriptylenes, which really is actually lethal. So I don't know what happened. And so I woke up and they said, do you want to be in an inpatient facility or do you want to go outpatient? And I was like, yeah, outpatient. I'm not going to live in that house. I'm sorry. And so when I went, I was evaluated for over 16 months by a forensic psychiatrist. I've actually been on TV with him. Um, and he told me that I had antisocial personality disorder. He told me I had narcissistic personality disorder. He would talk about ways because, oh yes, I forgot to say, he also worked in prisons. So he would try to discourage me from criminal activity because he would tell me specific stories about the women that, and what they get treated like in there, in that prison. So he's like, you will, he didn't try to do it from a moralistic. place he did it from you're gonna suffer you're gonna have a Speaker 2 (18:15) utilitarian yes Speaker 4 (18:16) utilitarian that's exactly the word that's exactly how he talked to me and like talking to him probably made me a bit more glib a bit better at like creating charm why Speaker 1 (18:26) because Speaker 4 (18:28) he would teach me ways of talking to people that were kind of new to me so i would weaponize that sort of language and mimic sort of, I'm very good at mimicking people. So I'm good at mirroring, I'm good at giving the right responses. And he kind of taught me some of the right responses that I didn't already know. Speaker 2 (18:44) So what he's trying to do is explain to you the situation, explain your diagnosis to this person who's 21 years old and has been dealing with this for as long as she can remember. But what he's actually doing is laying out a blueprint of how other people operate, Speaker 4 (18:58) which Speaker 2 (18:58) you then take and use. Speaker 4 (19:00) Exactly. Speaker 2 (19:00) And Speaker 4 (19:01) use specific language to do it. So that was really helpful. What Speaker 2 (19:05) specific language? Speaker 4 (19:07) So, you know, if someone's going through something, like you're going through some severe pain in your life, just being able to say, I understand what you're doing. Like, I feel it really badly. I can't believe this is happening to you. You mean so much to me. Speaker 2 (19:22) And Speaker 4 (19:23) then just the tears. And yeah, that would be generally what I do. You know the idea Speaker 2 (19:29) of a pea zombie? Have you heard of this? No, I haven't. Speaker 4 (19:31) A Speaker 2 (19:31) philosophical zombie. So it's a thought experiment. I think people kind of accuse AI of being this too. It's able to do all of the things. Imagine you had a human that looks like a human, walks and talks like a human, and makes all of the actions and responds that way, but there's nothing, there's no motivation going inside. No. That's not quite the same. Because there are motivations, it's just the reason for the motivations are more contrived Speaker 4 (19:54) with Speaker 2 (19:55) you. But it is kind of P zombie adjacent. Yeah, a little bit. That actually Speaker 4 (20:00) makes sense. Speaker 2 (20:01) Okay, what emotions do you feel? Speaker 4 (20:03) I feel all emotions except for like, I don't think empathy counts as an emotion. So I would say the fleeting emotions are like joy, happiness, being proud of myself. Anything positive is very long, a lot. Anything positive is very short-lived. Speaker 3 (20:21) Everything Speaker 4 (20:22) negative like rage, like contempt, anything along the lines of anger, that stays for a while, Speaker 2 (20:32) which Speaker 4 (20:33) is really frustrating because it's like, why couldn't you give me more of the good stuff? Like, why am I feeling the bad stuff? Why is Speaker 2 (20:39) there not psychopathy for positive emotions? Yeah, Speaker 4 (20:41) well, it's the thing. It's people Speaker 2 (20:42) walking around in bliss all the time, remembering all the nice things that happened to them. Speaker 4 (20:45) Yeah, and the problem is it's like, two different areas of the brain. So one is like, yeah, you should feel shit all the time. And one's like, I'll give you five seconds of like a good time today. And it's like, why are you doing this to me? Speaker 2 (20:58) Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. 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That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. So you feel all emotions, but you skew toward negative. Speaker 4 (22:01) Unfortunately. Speaker 2 (22:02) And not just, it sounds not so much. Is it depressive negative or like active negative? No. Speaker 4 (22:09) So I do like experience depression, if you will. But for me, it's no profound sadness. It's a completely flat feeling of having nothing. And you just consume so much time, like volumes of time, and you don't even know what you've done with it. And so it's like you kind of just flounder. And that lasts for a while, unfortunately. Speaker 2 (22:29) So Speaker 4 (22:30) I really don't like that. I can't handle boredom at all. Speaker 2 (22:34) You said you don't think that empathy is an emotion. No. Speaker 4 (22:36) But Speaker 2 (22:36) something like guilt, I think, would almost certainly... I think almost certainly guilt has to be... Guilt is... The reason that guilt exists is to identify... It's a self-identifier from your system to tell you that there is an imbalance in the... a ledger between you and something else or somebody else that I have taken too much from this situation. You can imagine why in a tribe this would be needed, that you need to ensure that everybody else sees you in a positive manner. And if you're the person that's always taking from the food and never giving it, you should feel guilt because it's an early warning sign that, hey, other people are not going to like you at some point in future, which is where the transactional stuff comes from. But for you, That's so Speaker 4 (23:20) interesting. I actually didn't know that. So the way I see guilt, it's a social conditioning emotion that is generally useless because what can I do about things I've done 20 years ago? Am I going to go say sorry and it's going to fix it? No, it's not. I guess that's why I burnt a lot of bridges. But it's just something that I don't feel. It's like I live in the present. If it's not in the present, it doesn't matter. Speaker 2 (23:48) Well, you say that you live in the present, but a lot of time is being spent maybe planning and concocting ways to get back at people. That's living in the future to a degree. That is, Speaker 4 (23:59) yeah. Okay. So I've been asked that before. So basically what I do is like in my everyday life, I have, you know, interactions with people on a daily basis. Like I coach a lot of people. They want to be ruthless. somehow come to me and so they come to me and they're like make me less emotional so at that time I'm telling them exactly how I feel and what I do but in terms of if someone has wronged me that stays lodged in my head until it is taken care of so there was a group of 1200 women on reddit who were posting images of my they said I should get raped again they gave my address to the They would comment on every single thing that was wrong with me about my appearance, which was wild stuff. So when I found out certain people were in that group, I realized that justice needs to be served. So I intend to ruin one of their birthdays every single year. So far, I've ruined three years. Speaker 2 (25:01) What have you done? Speaker 4 (25:02) I sent a pig's head to her door. I sent... the police for a welfare check, I sent a mariachi band to come at 6am, I sent the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I will next time be sending the Mormons. Speaker 2 (25:15) Wow, that's the worst one of all, by far. Speaker 4 (25:20) She was shocked by the pig on it. I'm not going to lie. Speaker 2 (25:22) You've said that you- Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Speaker 4 (25:25) And I don't know if you watched The Help, but Minnie makes a very specific pie for her old boss. And let's just say there's fecal matter in there. Luckily, it was outsourced because I couldn't do something like that. But that was delivered to her house and I hope she ate it. Speaker 2 (25:45) And this is one person? Speaker 4 (25:46) Yes. Speaker 2 (25:47) And this was the leader of this- Yes. Reddit group that you say was an attack on you of some kind. Speaker 4 (25:53) Exactly. What Speaker 2 (25:54) was their issue with you? Speaker 4 (25:55) I think it was just, I don't know, there was leaked video or something, not video, audio, and it wasn't legitimate. It was like just a string of my words put together from different clips. And they're like, oh, she's such a bigot. Oh, she's such a piece of shit, all of that stuff. What were they accusing Speaker 2 (26:12) you of having said? Racism. Right, okay. Speaker 4 (26:14) Yeah. Speaker 2 (26:14) Okay. Speaker 4 (26:15) And what's your heritage? Indian? Indian. Speaker 2 (26:18) Right. Speaker 4 (26:18) Yeah. I was like, I didn't say that. Like, I've never said that. Speaker 2 (26:22) Interesting. Speaker 4 (26:22) Yeah. And then also because Sam had made some posts on Twitter. Speaker 2 (26:26) This is your husband. Speaker 4 (26:27) Yeah. Yep. He made posts on Twitter about Virginia Dufresne and he was just making, showing. Jeffrey Epstein person. Yep. So he was showing some inconsistencies in the stories all. And then they blame me for that. So I was meant to be like the fall guy or something. I don't know. Like they decided. I was the proxy, I would be attacked constantly. Are they still around? I mean, we've got the Reddit thing taken down, which is great, but... Speaker 2 (26:54) What else, from an emotion standpoint, is interesting? I'm aware that a lot of this to you must be... Speaker 2 (27:03) like me talking about what it's like to be Harry Potter the wizard, that it's Speaker 1 (27:06) very hypothetical, Speaker 2 (27:07) right? But I imagine that you've spent a good bit of time thinking about not just so that you can manipulate other people, but so that you can function in the world at least remotely well. What the difference is between your experience and other people's? How else, what are the other big differences you think between sort of how you go through a day in terms of... Feeling things. Yeah. Emotions operating. So Speaker 4 (27:29) most things I don't feel very heavily. So if something happens and it's a great thing, like, I don't know, doing a podcast with you, I'll be like afterwards, damn, that was fun. Or like, damn, that's going to be cool when it comes out. That'll last for about 20 minutes. And then I'll see someone like say something annoying on Instagram and I'll be like. should this person get attacked later or not? And then I'll sort of go through that. But recently I've found Christianity through Charlie Kirk and that has radically changed a lot of what I