Best Peptides, Stem Cells, Testosterone & Exercise Hacks - Biohacking Roundtable - #1148

Modern Wisdom

In this Biohacking Roundtable episode of Modern Wisdom, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, Ben Greenfield, and Brigham Buhler dive into cutting-edge longevity strategies,

Key takeaways

• Peptides such as CJC-1295, tesamorelin, BPC-157, TB-500, and IGF-LR3 are used for growth hormone optimization, injury recovery, and improved metabolic health with potentially better safety profiles than traditional HGH.
• Microdosing GLP-1 is being explored not just for weight loss but also for reducing inflammation and possibly lowering cancer risk, especially in the context of aging and obesity.

Main topics

• Best peptides for longevity and muscle health
• Microdosing GLP-1 for inflammation and metabolic benefits

Notable quotes

"Peptides are like a condiment in your refrigerator—use them for specific reasons, not every day."

"We're at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia. We're going from people who are too big to people who are too frail."

Conclusion

The episode underscores that while advanced biohacks and peptides offer promising benefits,

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) People of the UK and Ireland, if you are coming to see me on tour, I want to hear from you. I want to know what problems you're dealing with, your worst first date, and any questions that you've got for me. And I will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it. So if you're coming to see me on tour this October, go to chriswilliamson.live slash stories, submit them, and I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon. chriswilliamson.live slash stories. Everyone, tell me what peptides you're on. That's all I care Speaker 4 (0:25) about. Speaker 2 (0:25) Woo-hoo! Let's go. Speaker 4 (0:27) Which day of the week? Which time of the day? I view peptides as a little bit more of like a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow an exact protocol every day. For example, when I travel, I use thymus and alpha-1, which I'm on right now, as you can tell, for the immune system. Yeah. I keep around BPC 157 and TB 500 for injuries. I run a couple of times a year a tesamorelin-ipamorelin with CJC 1295 cycle for growth hormone. Speaker 4 (1:10) Those are the biggies. Oh, C-Max and C-Link. Intranasal. C-Max is a little bit more of like a cognition, brain-derived neurotrophic factor booster. And then C-Link is more of like an anxiolytic. So kind of an upper downer. It's like my version of Valium caffeine. What Speaker 3 (1:29) he said. And pretty much that protocol I agree with. And I tell everyone the answer is not at the bottom of a peptide bottle, like diet, lifestyle, nutrition. living by the principles first. These are like additives that can help optimize your health, especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients. The only compounds that I think I take that you didn't discuss is IGF-LR3. I don't know if you've ever messed with that. Insulin growth factor, LR3. So a lot of people take growth hormone historically, but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits. that growth hormone gives you when it converts to IGF. And so if you were to use the peptide IGF, you get all the benefits of growth hormone, but with a much better safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels. And so that's why I'm a huge fan of IGF. Does it have like Speaker 4 (2:20) a similar... like pure HGH, you get a little bit of almost like a glucocorticoid response where there's a surge in cortisol, your resting glucose tends to be higher. A lot of people don't sleep as well at night because it goes on a downstream pathway. Do you skip out on a lot of that? Speaker 3 (2:37) Yeah, you do skip out a lot, but bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels. So, you know, you're still in your four, I'm in my forties, 46. So I want to be cognizant of that. But anytime I come off, like, so I'll go on for four to six weeks. And then I, when I come off, I'll cycle on to CJC and some of the other things you discussed just to boost my natural growth hormone levels. So Speaker 1 (2:57) I have the simplest protocol here. Sounds like, um, I will microdose GLP-1. once in a while for inflammation. I think there's going to be new emerging research. I was actually at the Protein Working Group Summit 3.0. And that is like the Oscars for nerds and protein scientists. I just, invitation only, a hundred of the finest scientists that are doing protein research. And there were topics of discussion, like what are the challenges that we face? But more importantly, I sat with Arnie Astrup. who discovered GLP-1's impact on appetite. So he was essentially responsible for what we now have is this obesity, now not called obesity, sarcopenic epidemic, GLP-1 use, which again, I am totally for GLP-1s, but that is my Speaker 4 (3:49) - Speaker 1 (3:49) Cool. You said Speaker 4 (3:50) you're microdosing it for inflammation? Speaker 1 (3:52) Yes. And there is going to be new emerging research that it is going to have an impact on cancer, they believe. that low-dose GLP-1. We don't totally know. He believes it's through inflammation. And this was the guy who discovered GLP-1's effect on appetite. Speaker 2 (4:09) How do you know that it's not just a reduction in the turnover of food? We Speaker 1 (4:12) don't. Speaker 2 (4:12) Right. Eating less cancer Speaker 4 (4:15) -causing food. Speaker 2 (4:15) It could be. Speaker 1 (4:16) It could be. But that remains to be seen. Well, the Speaker 3 (4:18) second leading cause of cancer, well, age is the leading cause. Second to that is obesity. And then, so if you were able to address... Aging and obesity, then you're naturally going to reduce the risk of cancer. So I think there's definitely going to be a correlation to the weight loss. Obesity is one of Speaker 2 (4:37) the biggest risk factors for cancer. Speaker 3 (4:39) Inflammation. Smoking. Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:40) inflammation independent of obesity as well. Just eating. How many bros do you know that are relatively lean, but they're turning over tons of sugar, they're just training it out of them, or they're still young, their metabolism's still kicking? Right. That's Speaker 4 (4:52) one of the possible benefits of intermittent fasting is autophagy and giving that reactive oxygen species production a break. Yes. I have microdosed with GLPs before on... flight days. Like there's something about it, just like quiet food noise. You don't really have access to great food anyways. I don't want to be distracted by food or think about it. I'm sedentary anyways for most of the days. So even if I could eat, it's probably not the best scenario for me to be eating. And so. When I say microdose, like, I don't know how much you mean, but I'm talking like 0.25. And to contextualize that, like a normal dose would be 8, 10, 12 milligrams of something like red and true Speaker 1 (5:30) type. It's crazy that you Speaker 4 (5:31) say that because Speaker 3 (5:32) what you're saying is what we've seen anecdotally. Like, because we're at over 70,000 patients now in the patient population as a whole at WasteWell. And a lot of the patients are now doing microdose GLP-1s and they say that they see a big difference in their inflammation. Speaker 1 (5:47) And I think that that is what we're going to find more. And I think the bigger point that we have to make is that they're here to stay. Whereas other medications, there's never been anything nearly as revolutionary. And, you know, in the 90s when they had the food guide pyramid and then all of a sudden obesity hit. Speaker 4 (6:02) Yeah. We Speaker 1 (6:03) are at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia. Right now. Speaker 4 (6:09) We're Speaker 3 (6:09) going Speaker 4 (6:09) from people who are too big to people who are too frail. Decrease in Speaker 1 (6:13) muscle mass and strength. And we've seen it, right? Your parents all of a sudden get frail. Your grandparents get frail. And if we're not careful. we're going to miss the early warning signs, which I think that we're seeing with people out in Hollywood. We're just seeing a transformation. I Speaker 3 (6:28) read your book and you talked about where it's not necessarily that we're under-muscled. We're also under-muscled. It's not just that we're obese. We are under-muscled. That's right. And if we can maintain lean muscle mass and bone mineral density as we age, it is one of the leading indicators on healthspan and longevity. Speaker 2 (6:47) What are some... biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in but you don't have any data to support What are some of the things that you're like, I fucking love this and I know that it works for me? The doctor in the Speaker 4 (7:01) corner is shaking her head. Speaker 2 (7:02) We'll give it to the fucking bro scientist. Speaker 4 (7:04) Let's go bro science. Biocharger. Have you ever seen this? Oh my Speaker 1 (7:07) God, I have one. Borrowed one from Tony Robbins. Oh, I have one. The doctor backs me up. No, I don't. I don't. Don't rope me into your bullshit. Facebook marketplace it. Okay, so I saved a patient's life and she said, pick. any piece of equipment that you want. And she keeps talking about this biocharger. She's like, my sex drive is up. It's like the best thing ever. I'm like, okay, well, I already have a sauna. I already have a cold plunge. What about the biocharger? Yeah, but so I have a biocharger. Speaker 2 (7:40) How did you find it? Speaker 4 (7:41) Great. Speaker 1 (7:41) My husband, he's like, I feel this. I mean, who knows? But it Speaker 4 (7:45) does. It does. But does it work? I don't Speaker 1 (7:48) know Speaker 4 (7:48) if this works. Radio frequency is based on a Tesla coil surrounded by 12 noble gases in tubes. And there's Speaker 1 (7:52) zero clinical data. But you can hold a Speaker 4 (7:55) cool fucking Speaker 1 (7:56) lightsaber. What did you think of it when you used it? I think a Speaker 4 (7:59) parasite recipe, like an insomnia recipe. Speaker 1 (8:02) You Speaker 4 (8:02) think it works? Okay. The raisin bran recipe works. For what? It's constipation. If you're constipated, been traveling, whatever, you sit in front of a Raising the Brand recipe for the last 12 minutes and you literally have like a turtle head. I Speaker 2 (8:15) want to hear Speaker 4 (8:15) what your experience Speaker 1 (8:17) was, Chris. I got zero. I was like, what is Speaker 4 (8:21) it? Speaker 1 (8:21) I Speaker 2 (8:21) went to Tony Robbins' house. He said he's got one in every room in his house. Apparently, I don't know why. And I got lent one for a month or so. I noticed no difference. Did you use it? Speaker 1 (8:33) Wait, did you use it? Consistently, semi-consistently. He didn't use it. But you can't Speaker 2 (8:37) like. you put your phone near it and your phone starts fucking glitching out. How often Speaker 1 (8:42) did you use it? I don't know. Speaker 2 (8:44) Okay. Speaker 1 (8:45) I have two other hats. I have two things. Okay. And then Speaker 4 (8:49) I've got one more. You might know more about this. So Speaker 3 (8:52) there's Speaker 1 (8:55) something and you probably know way more about this than I do, but I got lent a wind back machine. Have you ever seen that? It's like some tech card therapy. Do you know what that is? I don't know. Okay. Speaker 2 (9:05) Exciting. I Speaker 1 (9:06) don't know. And it's, so you don't know what it is. I don't know what it is either. Well, what is Speaker 2 (9:09) it? Speaker 1 (9:09) Well, it seems like it has some, it's like not quite EMS, but it has some high radio frequency. It is, but it's not exactly. And it's called tech car therapy. Speaker 3 (9:21) And Speaker 1 (9:21) what Speaker 2 (9:22) do you do? It's patches? Speaker 1 (9:23) So there's patches, but I've been using it for my hamstring. Does it have like a Speaker 4 (9:27) controller that's producing electricity? It does. It has Speaker 1 (9:29) this, yes. And I was hoping that you would tell me exactly how it works, but it seems to do tissue healing. I haven't seen good US data on it. I think that I'm feeling better. Has to work somehow and it's not a stim device. Yeah. Speaker 4 (9:44) I do not know if someone could Google it and see exactly what frequency. I'll Speaker 2 (9:51) send, Speaker 4 (9:51) I'll Speaker 1 (9:51) send. No, it's called a wind back. Speaker 4 (9:55) Wind back? Wind, yeah. Pull it up and see what they're actually saying that it does. I might have seen something like it before. And it localizes to where the Speaker 1 (10:05) pain is, which is really weird. Speaker 4 (10:07) Yeah. The Roxyvalent. Have you seen this one? No. Okay, so it's a sound lounge that vibrates like a vibroacoustic bed that you lay on. That Speaker 1 (10:13) sounds cool. And Speaker 4 (10:14) then it's a lamp. And the lamp has headphones. So it's like an AV cable. One side is going to the vibroacoustic bed. The other side is going to the headphones. And then there's like 100 different sessions ranging from five minutes to 60 minutes that are like blast off to the moon psychedelic. Like full on mushroom LSD like trip depending on what you choose with zero. biological payback as far as you actually needing to swallow a substance or put anything under your tongue. You lay there, you put on the headphones, you flip it on, you close your eyes, and it whisks you off to another planet. Speaker 1 (10:48) And it works. What is it called? Wait, what is Speaker 4 (10:49) it Speaker 1 (10:49) called? Speaker 4 (10:50) So it's like, if we were to talk about the proposed neural benefit, it would be based on what's called light sound entrainment, meaning shifting you into different brainwaves based on the light and the sound. It's called a rock SIVA. There is a session Speaker 3 (11:04) on Speaker 4 (11:05) there. It is like a shift wave, but imagine if the shift wave didn't just have sound because the shift wave is super cool for people listening or watching. It vibrates. It doesn't just vibrate. It fucking shakes the Speaker 2 (11:17) room. Speaker 4 (11:17) It's lined with nodes. I've got one at Speaker 2 (11:19) the house. Speaker 4 (11:19) And the cool part is it will guide you through breathwork sessions and specifically like the breath holds. you can go like 25 % longer just based on the distraction of the vibrating chair. And you're wearing a fingertip monitor for HRV and your HRV climbs through the roof while you're doing this thing. Imagine that plus flickering light. That's also designed to just like whisk you off into a completely different state. There's a session called Rebirth and they actually recorded like whooshing sounds in mom's womb and the fetal heartbeat. And you put on the headphones, you close your eyes, you lay under this thing and it feels like you're just like primally being whisked back into this like fetal state. And you lay there for 45 minutes and sometimes you'll fall asleep, you're in and out of consciousness. And then the last five minutes you get... burst and the music crescendos and all of a sudden like everything starts beating and the lights get brighter and your heart rate speeds up and you get this dump of adrenaline and then you're just like out and then everything goes dark and you sit up from it and you just feel like you could go conquer the world. 2 p.m. in the afternoon. Speaker 1 (12:32) Wow, I was so into that story. It's pretty cool. That's fucking cool. Does it work? I've Speaker 2 (12:37) used the shift wave. The shift wave's not as comprehensive as that. There was an interesting thing around the sounds from Mother's Womb. I had Stephen Porges on, the polyvagal theory guy. Oh, very interesting. He came up with the safe and sound protocol, SSP. Are you familiar with that? So this is a mode of... nervous system re-entrainment. And it's a combination of kind of meditation with, you actually have a facilitator who is halfway between mantra, meditation, psychotherapy, and like soundwave work, I guess, and breath work. And one of the things that he taught me, which is fucking fascinating, the soft gentle, reassuring sounds that mothers give to their kids is the frequency in which the safe and sound protocol works as well. One of the weird things is that's the same, like sound frequency, like the tone. Yes. So interesting. It's the same for dogs and it's the same for horses. And that's the reason that equine therapy and that humans and horses are able to connect as well. And the humans and dogs are able to connect as well. That's fascinating. Because the sound frequency that mothers and kids have in. all of those species are within the same band. Speaker 1 (13:53) Isn't that fucking cool? What if Speaker 2 (13:55) your Speaker 4 (13:55) mom has a really low voice? Speaker 2 (13:58) She's probably jacked, so it's fine. It doesn't matter at all. What else have I been using that's been interesting? Hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I mean, I know that this is not super experimental and it's probably pretty well. Not sexy at all. That hard shell at what, like 2.2 atta is so good. I don't know what is happening to make me feel the way that I do after I come out of a hyperbaric. But it is 20 minutes on, five minutes off, 100 % oxygen on the mask, normal oxygen outside of that, 90-minute session down at depth, 2.2, is... better than any coffee, better than any cold plunge, better than anything. There's a little Speaker 4 (14:35) bit of parasympathetic activation too, just from the whole sensory depth nature of it. I did one at Brigham's yesterday and like my tongue lagging out of the corner of my mouth. But it's just a standard Speaker 1 (14:44) hyperbaric chamber that they've been using in operators forever. Speaker 3 (14:48) Michael Jackson was using one in like the 90s. Have you guys used the hydrogen bath? I have to use that, yeah. I have a hydrogen bath in my garage. I don't, and I think there is, I haven't looked it up. I just fucking have one. Speaker 2 (15:00) It's just transdermal Speaker 4 (15:02) absorption of hydrogen. Speaker 3 (15:03) But I don't, you add, although there's studies behind it, I just use it and I like Speaker 4 (15:07) it. Speaker 3 (15:07) You're Speaker 4 (15:07) just Speaker 3 (15:07) getting hundreds of times more hydrogen than a pill. It's so relaxing to me because it's a hot tub. You're seeing a hot tub that has hydrogen in it. And you can probably talk. You need a placebo Speaker 4 (15:15) -controlled trial where you're actually in the hot tub and nobody tells you whether or not they put hydrogen in it. But the idea is that there is some transdermal absorption of hydrogen in a hydrogen-rich environment, either in the air or in the water, that's greater than what you would get from like a pill dropped in water. And hydrogen being a selective antioxidant means that for inflammation, for soreness, et cetera. you do feel pretty good afterwards. Yeah, but it's hard because a hot tub you feel good Speaker 2 (15:42) too. Speaker 4 (15:42) I Speaker 2 (15:42) read Speaker 4 (15:42) books for my podcast. And literally like my bookshelf and my books to read is in the garage. That's where my wife, Hemini, put the bathtub in a hydrogen bath with a red light. And how long do you stay in? The red light is great. Speaker 3 (15:54) I Speaker 4 (15:54) lay out there and read books. How long do you stay in? About 40 minutes. Speaker 3 (15:57) Every day? Speaker 4 (15:59) Almost Speaker 3 (15:59) every day now. The Speaker 2 (16:00) hydrogen bath I was using really intermittently. That was when I was in... Speaker 2 (16:07) Lumati. That's the only place I've ever used that. That's where I got Speaker 4 (16:10) my hydrogen concentrator was from them in San Diego. Have you Speaker 2 (16:12) seen Alex Tarnava's thing? He's the inhalation. Yeah. Yeah. Brigham has one. That Speaker 4 (16:17) is, it's, it's the only hydrogen inhalation machine that can go up to that high of a percentage. that doesn't use a nasal cannula. So you get a pretty high concentration. That also doesn't risk Speaker 2 (16:29) fucking blowing up. Speaker 4 (16:31) Yeah, without risk of explosion. You Speaker 2 (16:32) do Speaker 3 (16:32) not Speaker 2 (16:32) want to be fucking about with hydrogen, dude. But I mean, you put me in touch with Alex and his machine is fucking out of this world. I don't even know if they're publicly, if they're like widely available. I Speaker 3 (16:42) don't Speaker 2 (16:42) know Speaker 4 (16:42) if they're for sale or not, but it's called Speaker 2 (16:44) an H2L. You've been Speaker 4 (16:44) working on Speaker 2 (16:45) it Speaker 4 (16:45) for a decade. What pushed me over the edge is there's a very... very trustworthy guy in the hydrogen research sector named Tyler LeBaron, who I think he founded the Hydrogen Research Foundation. I think that's what it's called. And he put his name behind this because he was so impressed with it compared to all these different machines, a lot of them coming out of Asia that have low concentration or you can't adjust the percentage or they use a nasal cannula instead of a mask. And so when I asked him about it, he was like, thumbs up. This is the best one in the market. What Speaker 2 (17:17) do Speaker 4 (17:17) you make of, Speaker 2 (17:18) because we've got hydrogen tablets, hydrogen flasks, water infusion flasks, inhalation, and now baths as well. What do you make of hydrogen, the research around it generally, and then what do you make of those Speaker 4 (17:32) different? I've used a test kit to test the bottle and the tablet. And the bottle produces a higher concentration of hydrogen. It's like 8 to 10 ppm. but the bottles poop out after like 300 uses. So you're going to buy a bottle frequently. The pill is slightly lower. The transdermal absorption, there's not a lot of research on that. The inhalation is the highest concentration that you can infuse into your body as far as what they've actually looked at for hydrogen concentration. Speaker 2 (18:01) What's the proposed mechanism, benefits of breathing hydrogen, of putting more of it in your body? It's an antioxidant. Speaker 4 (18:09) So basically, it would quell inflammation. It would essentially, because it's a selective antioxidant, it can accept or donate electrons. So unlike, say, like a high-dose synthetic vitamin C or vitamin E or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, it can actually accept or donate an electron. And so it would be something that would not say quell the hormetic response to exercise. Like after you do a hard exercise session, you're actually not supposed to take high dose antioxidants. You're not supposed to spend Speaker 2 (18:47) - Speaker 4 (18:47) Same Speaker 2 (18:47) reason you Speaker 4 (18:47) shouldn't do a cold Speaker 2 (18:47) plunge. Speaker 4 (18:48) Well, the cold plunge, you have to drop the muscle temperature by about one degree Celsius, which takes at least 10 minutes at a pretty cold temperature. Like jumping in a quick cold plunge or taking a cold shower after a workout. That's not a big Speaker 2 (19:00) problem. Speaker 4 (19:00) That fee has been overblown? Speaker 2 (19:01) It's been overblown because I Speaker 4 (19:03) don't know a lot of people who even have the time after a workout to get in a cold plunge for 10 to 20 minutes, which is where the desire. And that's where the research that you blunt the anabolic response actually happens. So if you're going to do a long cold plunge, wait for a few hours until after the workout. Who Speaker 2 (19:20) the fuck's doing a 10-minute cold plunge? Me? No one researched you. I do Speaker 4 (19:27) three Speaker 3 (19:27) minutes. So Speaker 4 (19:28) basically, hydrogen and methylene blue are two examples of selective antioxidants that can accept or donate an electron that would be acceptable for post-exercise inflammation without blunting the anabolic response. Speaker 2 (19:40) Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. 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That's functionhealth.com slash Speaker 1 (20:37) modern wisdom. Speaker 2 (20:38) What about talking about the temperature of your muscles being a mediating factor? I saw that Brian had swallowed a... thermometer, a pill thermometer, and he was looking at the temperature that you need to get to, yeah, for the sauna in order to get to heat shock protein. And he'd been doing maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes at 200, but he actually needed to get to 30 minutes at 200 in order to get to that. What was your read on that data? Speaker 4 (21:05) He did. He's also very lean, right? So that's going to be a factor in that he's probably going to need higher temperatures. Right. To, to, yeah, exactly. Efficient with heat, less insulation. Um, I think it also depends on your activity level in the sauna. Like I move a lot in the sauna, like I'm, I'm doing pushups and squats and, you know, hot yoga and perineum tanning and, you know, all of the things that one does in a sauna. So I think if you're moving around a lot, you can get pretty hot, but. He does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat shock protein benefit of a sauna, which is the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures, so not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect that you need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using. With the caveat being, it's kind of a paradox that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's, but... When your cranium gets hot and you're getting above about 200 degrees and you don't have your sexy elven sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. So he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both, but you need to invest in a wool cap to do so. Speaker 2 (22:25) That's the protection. Interesting. How important is it? And ice balls. I was going to ask. Got to ice Speaker 3 (22:30) the Speaker 2 (22:30) balls. I Speaker 4 (22:31) bought my sons the, I forget the brand. Nutsicles. Did Speaker 2 (22:35) you Speaker 4 (22:35) get nutsicles? I have 18-year-old sons and I want grandkids. That is the Speaker 1 (22:38) thing they say that if you're trying to reproduce, that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility. Well, the crazy Speaker 2 (22:45) thing is I was. When I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, oh, okay, what do I need to avoid? One of the things that the guy came back to me and said is, there's so many guys that go away in a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi, you know, like just chilling with their boys for ages. He's like, that will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of saunas because you've got direct contact from the heat of the water. Just like... absolutely infusing your testosterone and your testicles with- And chlorine Speaker 4 (23:14) and parabens and phthalates and everything else getting absorbed through spinal tissue. Speaker 2 (23:18) How important are the heat shock proteins? Like, do we really need those or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that? You Speaker 4 (23:24) can get, and as a matter of fact, this was a couple of months ago, they looked at sauna versus weight training and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session. I don't remember the time or the temperature being used, but weights would be one just exercising in the heat in general. Paradoxically, cold plunging can increase heat shock proteins because it's a thermoregulatory mechanism. So there are other ways that you can stress the body, kind of like fasting and autophagy to get a similar pathway activated. So it doesn't just have to be sauna. That's Speaker 2 (24:02) interesting. I've been loving resonance breathing lamps. There's this lamp called OM, OM.health, and it's got FDA-registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp. and on the top there's a stone and that's got a 100 hertz sensor. You just hold the stone and the lamp is connected to your Wi-Fi, has the algorithm and it detects your HRV. You breathe, the stone vibrates, so you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance, it gets you into resonance, it's maximizing that arrhythmia between it. Makes little sounds. Speaker 3 (24:33) Makes like an ocean sound. Literally like two weeks ago, I got targeted on Instagram. Rules. Absolutely rules. Speaker 4 (24:39) Funny story. So Jay Wiles, the HRV expert who developed that lamp, I used to have this thing where I didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick, without a podcast host. Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years. No way. Yeah. He was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart. Like whenever anybody would ask a question about HRV, like... Jay would jump in and then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool. It's Speaker 2 (25:04) absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV. So let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever. If you've got a lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45 minute resonance breathwork sessions without even thinking about it. Because you Speaker 4 (25:22) don't need the light cue, just the vibratory. Just Speaker 2 (25:23) vibrating. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a nighttime, you can roll over and grab it. It doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with. So what is Speaker 1 (25:31) that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the breath? Speaker 4 (25:35) The idea behind resonance breathing, and it's actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around five and a half seconds in, five and a half seconds out. achieves peak hrv so that's about where you see really good vagal tone is at that breath rate and this lamp is essentially in a training tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues if you're using the stone to cause you to breathe at that rate there's a book called coherence And in the latter pages of that book, it was one of Speaker 2 (26:11) the Speaker 4 (26:11) first books I ever read on resonance breathing. There's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable MP3 file called the Clock and Bell. And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing because it's literally like tick, Speaker 2 (26:22) tock, tick, tock, ding, tick. Speaker 4 (26:26) And you play it while you're working or while you're checking emails, while you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're doing resonance breathing, but it trains you how to like subconsciously resonance breathe. Obviously a way, a way. more stripped down solution than what Jay developed, but the home lab is super cool. Speaker 2 (26:45) It's because it's art. It's trait rather than state. And I think that's what everybody's trying to get themselves over to. It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't need to just end at the end of my session. One of the interesting things that I talked to Jay about was if you get below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trait changes too. I think what you need to do maybe... you know, three or four sessions a week. So an hour a week, something like that. And it's so easy. So that's on my list. It doesn't Speaker 4 (27:12) do fetal heartbeat and womb whooshing sounds though. Which is a shame. Which is a shame. They got to build that up. Speaker 2 (27:16) Any other cool shit, like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing? The other Speaker 3 (27:21) big one that I've seen, and I know Ben's experienced it too, is the Muse stem cells. So a scientist, Mari Dezawa out of Japan, discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called Muse. And it's fascinating because everything they've been doing outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorgenic, right? So one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could in theory hypothetically become a cancer cell or what if Speaker 2 (28:07) it came into Speaker 3 (28:08) contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype and then exasperated that and now we put trillions of these cells in your body yeah and so it's turbocharged right Speaker 4 (28:16) uh Speaker 3 (28:17) 2014 this is another woman one of the leading scientists in stem cell research 2014 she discovered this cell um it is a muse stands for multi-lineage stress enduring um which basically means Traditional stem cells, you have to cryo-freeze negative 80 degrees or more. And the second you thaw them out, they begin to die. And so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These mu cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Less than 2 % of stem cells are Muse, but they're the super soldiers. So in all this research is now coming together. Like this scientist, Dominic Deutscher out of Germany was a professor at Stanford and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset. And what it was, was a Muse. And so here's why that's important. A mu cell, in layman's terms, can become anything. So like when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney. Ben Greenfield, all of us. Ben Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow aspirate or they're taking cells from fat tissue. And the problem with that is... that cell's already developed a phenotype. And the fraction is very large. Yes. And if they're diabetic or elderly, they don't have MUSE. There are no MUSE. It's literally just traditional MSCs. And so what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype. They can pierce the blood-brain barrier. Other traditional cells get caught in the lungs. Traditional MSCs mostly get caught up in the lungs. They don't pierce the blood-brain barrier. Traditional MSCs have a 3 % engraftment rate. Muse cells have a 30 % engraftment rate. Traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft. Muse cells are engrafted within 48 hours. And high Speaker 4 (30:14) histocompatibility too. There's almost no immune system response. So they're immunomodulatory. Is Speaker 2 (30:20) this the shit that Matt Cook had me breathe? Did he have me atomize Muse cells? Yes, you can Speaker 4 (30:24) nebulize them. Yeah, nebulize. He probably had you do that with Muse-derived exosomes. Speaker 3 (30:30) Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And so you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate internasally, and it will pierce the blood-brain barrier. And they have this because they did it on stroke victims in Japan. And their brain is lit up like a Christmas tree with these tagged cells. And what's crazy is through phagocytosis, they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell. So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in babies born with encephalitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial, which Speaker 1 (31:12) people love. Those Speaker 3 (31:13) children, 90 % of them had totally normal brain function out to two years from one intravenous treatment. From one intravenous treatment. And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday. Crazy. Patient on a heart transplant list. We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they re-ran this patient's information or all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list. And there is crazy data on heart, brain. You guys are Speaker 4 (31:43) using Dazaawa. Correct. Muse, right? Correct. Because the actual fraction percentage of Muse cells widely varies. And that's who Matt's using. Mari Dezawa Speaker 3 (31:54) is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells. And so this is the most game changer thing that I have seen. And I've like, I don't own into the company. It's not mine. I wish I did, but it's like the most game changer thing. And we've been using it because again, Texas has the right to try. And so this is what Brett. has seen the most impact with, with his, his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to, if with Parkinson's, it's like, can we slow, can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance? And there are so many different benefits to this, whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic related injuries. The data is really compelling. When you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has accrued over the last decade, and now it's Speaker 2 (32:38) a Speaker 3 (32:38) culmination of even the scientist in Germany, Dominic Deutscher, who is trying to understand what are these little subset phenotypes. And now it's all come together where he's like, holy shit, I've wasted 20 years of research. They're actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East. So it's super cool. You have difficulty. Yeah. You're kidding. Speaker 2 (32:55) He's kidding. He is kidding. It's a Speaker 3 (32:56) callback. This is healthy birth, healthy mother, pre-plan C-section. They take the discarded afterbirth and from that they can extrapolate out these super cells, these super soldier cells, Speaker 2 (33:07) basically. That's Speaker 3 (33:08) so fucking cool. Yeah. Afterbirth Speaker 4 (33:10) super soldiers. Yeah. That's what Speaker 2 (33:11) I need. So Speaker 3 (33:12) those are things that I think will be game changer as they become more readily accepted. Florida's passed a law that allows accessibility. Speaker 3 (33:19) Tennessee just passed a law that I lobbied for. And then also I lobbied in Arizona. We got it through the House and the Senate, but the governor of Arizona shot it down. I think Texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this. And then Utah. So you can get it in certain states and then certain states are regulated. And then obviously it's not an FDA approved. uh modality for anything so any any use of these cells would be off off label there is no label you Speaker 2 (33:46) know what you were talking about um putting stuff here i was thinking about clear spray x l e a r that shit just available over the counter for marcons yeah fucking crazy yeah yeah i can't believe that that thing is just like oh yeah just buy it and for the people that don't know i'm talking can you explain what it is it's Speaker 4 (34:03) a Speaker 2 (34:03) nasal spray about the Speaker 4 (34:04) xylitol Speaker 2 (34:05) yes nasal spray Speaker 4 (34:06) yeah yeah um I've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water. I discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you'd get out of a river or lake or any fresh body and just typically about 3 or 4 a.m. that night after you'd lay down and stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histaminergic response, you start sneezing and you start sniffling and you spray this stuff and you get vasodilation and it seems to just knock down the histamine reaction, but it's just an OTC. Speaker 2 (34:34) Yeah. Yeah, over-the-counter clear spray. But if you do a course, typically for about two or three months, that's enough to knock out mark-ons. Which Speaker 4 (34:44) normally you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get vasoactive intestinal polypeptide nasal spray for, the VIP peptide. The VIP peptide, yeah. Speaker 2 (34:54) But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray and you can get rid of something that's literally living in your fucking nasal cavity. You've got shit that's living inside of your nose. They're Speaker 4 (35:03) like Speaker 2 (35:03) microbe organisms. Yes. And yeah, there's clear spray, which is just Speaker 4 (35:08) X-L-E-A-R. Somebody knows how to pronounce it. Yeah, whatever. I mean, apparently Speaker 2 (35:14) it's clear Speaker 4 (35:15) spray. Speaker 2 (35:16) Clear spray. Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement. On the planet, this isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40 % in just 16 weeks, along with improvements in their overall energy. I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline. And eat your heart out, Martin Shkreli, because they've just dropped the price and it now starts. at $99. Best of all, there is a 30-day money-back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US, plus they ship internationally. And right now you can get that $99 price with an additional 20 % off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com slash modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom. at checkout. So why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia? And are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis? Speaker 1 (36:31) I'm worried about both. And that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight this fast outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been. We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes of weight that we've never had before, which means if in fact these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications. It's like 20 % of Americans. Speaker 4 (37:11) Plus all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody. Hopefully. Speaker 1 (37:17) Things are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, GLP-1s are now available. Obesity will become less of a problem. But the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed. Speaker 4 (37:39) And Speaker 1 (37:39) by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Speaker 1 (37:47) Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Can you explain for the idiot in the room, please? Yeah, yeah. Idiots in the room. Meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle. plays a role in the outcome. Speaker 4 (38:02) So she was saying it's like predictive of your osteoporotic status late in life. Speaker 1 (38:08) So women, athletes, Speaker 4 (38:10) athletes Speaker 1 (38:11) that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density and then are at risk for osteoporosis. Speaker 2 (38:21) It's kind of strange to hear three people in a room who are quite forward-thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence, being skeptical about GLPs. I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention which appears to fix the obesity thing. And now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't understand. In fact, they're not even side effects. They're more like second order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right? Rather than side effects. What else? How do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLPs over the next decade or so? I Speaker 3 (38:53) think one of the big challenges, and this is what you just touched on, is in traditional medicine. it's an insurance model and this is my forte and the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication and that indication is both based off a specific dosage and so These trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? This was originally going to be a diabetes medication. And so all of the initial data- Which Speaker 4 (39:19) is Speaker 3 (39:19) where the lion's Speaker 4 (39:20) share of human clinical data comes from, is disease population. And Speaker 3 (39:22) so then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population and every Speaker 1 (39:27) - Speaker 3 (39:27) The one with the 33 BMI. Yeah, and now every housewife in Malibu is using it to lose 10 pounds for like vacation. Guess Speaker 1 (39:34) what else it does? And this is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman. Speaker 4 (39:40) Is that like the anhedonia thing where it reduces pleasure? But it's more pronounced in one sex? Speaker 1 (39:46) Yes. Which one? So in women. Speaker 4 (39:48) Oh, really? Speaker 1 (39:49) And the data is still emerging because we haven't been using Speaker 4 (39:53) it. Speaker 1 (39:53) Are you Speaker 4 (39:53) ready? Speaker 1 (39:54) God damn it. You're so lean, but I can't have sex with you. So for men, it can increase testosterone. It can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're starting to see for women is that it can, again, decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive. Speaker 4 (40:18) So just give them some PT-141 nasal spray and we're back off to the races, right? Or we study women more. Yeah. Speaker 1 (40:24) Or we study women more. And perhaps we get, to your point, specialized dosing. Because Speaker 3 (40:29) the problem is in that model, I literally right before we walked in here got a text from somebody who said, my wife's trisepatide is no longer covered by insurance. And they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Speaker 1 (40:41) Okay. You're Speaker 3 (40:42) going to move her up. to a higher dosage to get insurance to cover. It's Speaker 1 (40:46) a higher Speaker 3 (40:46) dose that's covered. Yes, Speaker 1 (40:47) even though she was Speaker 3 (40:48) getting Speaker 1 (40:48) the efficacy out of the lower dose. Right, which is a problem. And that's because insurance companies, Speaker 3 (40:52) I broke this down on your podcast too before, it's a big challenge because 30 % of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs. So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, yeah, we're not covering. that one anymore. You've got to bump up. Yeah, which is super Speaker 4 (41:15) interesting because it's an Speaker 3 (41:16) efficacious dose. I mean, we Speaker 4 (41:17) were just talking about 0.25, which is a microdose that suppresses food noise that for a lot of people is enough, nowhere near enough to get covered by insurance. But then... these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights. And the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal. But you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre workout or whatever, and you get nauseous trying it. So then you're flat in the gym. And so this is like the whole gray man hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart, getting getting big, like, AI. Speaker 4 (41:54) potentially like, you know, hardware infused brains while our body wastes away into little stick figures and the gray men are us from the future on GLP-1s and AI. Speaker 1 (42:02) Thank goodness we have testosterone. Speaker 2 (42:04) Is the dosage, is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't? Because when I think, oh, this is the dosage, I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe and you go, well, I'll just draw more or less. So the Speaker 3 (42:16) companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to