4 Men Share How They Hit Rock Bottom (and got out) - Dr K, Joe Hudson & Connor Beaton - #1159

Modern Wisdom

Host Chris Williamson joins coaches Joe Hudson, Dr. K, and Connor Beaton to explore how men navigate rock bottom, ambition, and lasting personal transformation. The group

Key takeaways

• Dr. K defines rock bottom not as a destination but as a conscious choice to stop running from consequences and face one's karmic reckoning.
• Connor Beaton shares his experience of living in his car after relationship sabotage, illustrating how shame-based motivation yields hollow success without inner reconciliation.

Main topics

• Rock bottom and personal transformation
• Shame-based motivation versus intrinsic drive

Notable quotes

"Rock bottom is a choice, not a place."

Conclusion

The episode equips listeners with practical frameworks to replace sham

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live. Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left, and you can get yours now at chriswilliamson.live. This is a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent over a year working on it. So, if you're a fan of everything Modern Wisdom, come and see me on stage this October around the UK and Ireland, chriswilliamson.live. Speaker 3 (0:21) This is kind Speaker 1 (0:22) of like my Super Bowl. I hope the people that are watching realize just how much heat is in the room, because... Between you guys, you've been the basically top coaches or the SOS call to some of the best athletes, biggest musicians, CEOs in the world, plus probably a few tens of millions of normal people as well. It's a real Avengers assemble of personal growth. So thank you for being here. This is awesome. I've been looking forward to this. So there's an idea from Naval Ravikant where he says, the reason to win the game is to be free of it. So I wanted to talk about how people, especially men, can win the game. Let's say that I'm someone who wants to maximize everything, achieve as much as possible, pull all of the ambition out of myself that I can. I want to wrangle every bit of motivation, discipline, raw masculine, crush the world energy that I can. How do you guys come to even think about that? How should I achieve that? Speaker 2 (1:17) Okay, let's go. Y'all are looking at me. Yeah, so yesterday you brought up this kind of idea that, okay, you climb to the top of the mountain, Speaker 3 (1:27) and Speaker 2 (1:27) then you kind of have to go back down, right? And so I'm sure that Joe and Connor probably have experienced all the same things. So there's one set of challenges when you're nothing in life, and then as you go through the process of becoming something, you arrive at a different set of challenges. So, you know, I work with so many people who have difficulty finding a partner because they're a nobody. And then once they become a somebody, then they have difficulty finding a partner who wants them as opposed to what they've become. So I think it's a really good framing. And my kind of overall take is actually like, so it's sort of a... So there are things that we do that are adaptive and then they become maladaptive. So that's the process of growing up. One of my mentors once told me growing up is abandoning what works over and over and over again because it worked back then. And unless you get rid of it, you're going to run into trouble. And I think the interesting thing about this framing of like climbing to the top of the mountain and then kind of having this different set of challenges is I think there's actually just one trajectory. The problem is that when we focus on certain things, right, so when we focus on willpower and discipline and all this kind of stuff, it actually creates problems in the future. So I think that there is a way when you kind of say like tunneling through the bottom, you know, like you can kind of bypass it all. So what I've kind of found is that there is a set of things that you can do to become materially very successful. But usually doing those things. Yeah. Trying to win the game. Speaker 1 (3:07) Like the guy at Speaker 2 (3:08) the Speaker 1 (3:08) bottom doing nothing. Guy at the top. won something, guy at the bottom, transcended the game, and then fuck the game through the middle. Speaker 2 (3:16) Yeah, so I'd actually say that fuck the game is upward. Because I think that this is somewhat true. So I'm sure these guys do too. I Speaker 3 (3:28) mean, Speaker 2 (3:28) I know they do. But if you work with some very successful people, they have different challenges. They're not necessarily peaceful. They're not necessarily contented. And then we think about this thing like, okay, if I don't have ambition, then how am I going to achieve? But then if you use ambition to achieve, then you're stuck with this programming, which is ambition oriented. Yes. And then you move the goalposts and then you want more and then you want more and it's never enough. And so I think like my take on this, and I'd love to hear what y'all think, is like, yeah, this sort of works, but as we know, there's a problem that you end up with at the top that you then have to solve. Speaker 3 (4:08) And Speaker 2 (4:09) I actually think, Fuck the game is the way to go like that, that that that's there's one basic way. And a simple example of this is people think that contentment is something that you get from the outside. Like I'm hungry, I eat something and then I'm content. But there's piles of spirituality which have now been supported by piles of neuroscience that contentment itself is a cultivatable skill. Speaker 1 (4:33) And Speaker 2 (4:34) that as you cultivate contentment, there are ways to motivate yourself that are not hunger. That are not ambition. And so I think a lot of times what we use is like toxic fuel to get to the top. And then we achieve what we want. And then we're kind of stuck in this like polluted environment. We've made all these kinds of sacrifices and we've programmed ourselves in a way that leaves us very unhappy. And I bet these, I mean, I already know. But like, I'm sure if you listen to our personal stories, you will see some version of that. Speaker 1 (5:08) Everybody is at some point on this mountain. Absolutely. 100%. Desperately trying to shout at people who are at base camp walking toward the mountain, like, no, Speaker 3 (5:18) no, go back. Fuck off. Speaker 1 (5:20) There's Speaker 3 (5:21) bodies Speaker 4 (5:21) on Speaker 3 (5:21) Everest. Yeah. Speaker 4 (5:22) There's bodies up there. Just littered, man. I mean, I do think that there's a bit of a quagmire that people experience when they're dealing with this, I want to win the game, right? Like, if you really want to win the game, replicate what so many other people have done to make the money, right? To get the Bugattis. But the problem that a lot of people have that I've seen is that they try and get to the top of the mountain by using what I call dark motivation or the toxic fuel, right? Shame-based motivation. And so they're in pain, they're suffering, they hate themselves, they don't like their lives. And that becomes the fuel for them to then say. I want out of here. And the problem is that it really works and it can really work well, but it doesn't often lead to the type of satisfaction and fulfillment that people are ultimately seeking. The reconciliation within of, well, not only do I want to have money, but I also actually want to like myself and I want to like my life and I want to like my partner and my kids. And so part of the challenge that people have to bump up against. is what are you going to do with the accumulation of the pain that exists inside of you that is trying to drive you towards that perceived success that will alleviate you from the pain that you're carrying and experiencing. Not Speaker 1 (6:43) to just rely on Naval Ravikant for the entire direction of this fucking podcast, but he also has a line which is, it is far easier to achieve our material desires than to renounce them. Like if you feel unrequited, the world hasn't recognized me. I've always been a piece of shit or I've been the person that people have stepped on or ignored or whatever. And I have all of this pain and I have all of this trauma and I want to become something. Is it not quicker to go up and over the mountain than to go straight through it? Speaker 4 (7:11) Not in my experience. I think you can do some pretty amazing things. Speaker 4 (7:20) But it usually requires some pretty severe hardships. Like the guys that, and I was one of those guys. I'm like, let's go to the top. And then the guys that I worked with, it's let's go to the top. And usually when men come to work with me, they're up at the top. And then they're like. oh shit, this wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I still hate myself. I still feel like a piece of shit. I can't enjoy the money that I've made. Oh, I won the award and it feels hollow and empty. And I went home that night and got super stoned and drank myself to sleep because I still feel hollow inside. And so I don't know if it's about quickness. It's about how are you going to transmute the suffering that you're life is care that you are carrying inside of yourself into to alchemize it into something more meaningful for you and hopefully for the world like that's the function of what initiation was always supposed to be but i'm curious to hear your what do you think about all that Speaker 3 (8:20) So I have a slightly different trajectory. And so my top of the mountain was spiritual awakening. So I dedicated to that early. And just from 20 years old, that was the top of my mountain, which was its own hell. There's the hell of trying to make a shit ton of money and being a winner that way. This was its own particular hell. So just to say that my perspective is a little bit different on it. Speaker 3 (8:46) I think that the couple of things that I see in there is that you ask the questions like, how do you work with it? The number one thing is if you're looking at the mountain, asking yourself what it is actually that's going to work at that point. What is it that I actually really want? And ask not just like, whatever your answer is, let's say it's money and say, okay, cool. If I have money, is it done? We're finished? Speaker 3 (9:10) And then if that's not it, no, I also want something else. Okay, is that done? Are you finished then? And keep on asking that question to find actually what the core of the thing that you want is. I think a lot of people start charging up that mountain because they were told to want it, because they thought to want it, not because they actually really like deeply looked at, is this the thing that I want at my core? The second thing I think is really useful is usually people go for the thing that they see as possible and they often think the thing that they really want is impossible. So I don't know how many billionaires I've worked with that are like, yeah, we could make, you know, AGI or we can make a $10 billion market cap company. But like actually having a happy company, no, that's not possible. Or have a happy marriage, maybe that's not possible. Or having happy kids, that's Speaker 1 (10:00) not possible. Speaker 3 (10:00) Something Speaker 1 (10:00) that actually feels much more within reach, much less extraordinary. Speaker 3 (10:03) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So really look at the things in your mind that you're telling yourself aren't possible. And really take a... deep dive into the, like, what makes that so? Like really take a look at it. So I think that that is like the best thing to do if you're like looking up the mountain is not to decide whether you're going up or whether you're going through, it's to ask yourself, what is it that I actually most deeply want here? And really spend time with that question. My experience is that question in itself will drive you through the mountain instead of up and over the mountain. I think, I Speaker 4 (10:37) think it's also missing a. like the image is missing something because for me, there was no ascension of the mountain. It was just bouncing off the bottom, you know? And I think that that's for a lot of young men, especially in today's culture and climate, they don't even feel like they're climbing the mountain. They feel like, oh, I can't even get to base camp. You know, I'm just constantly life, relationships, whatever it is, I'm just bouncing off the bottom. And for me, that was my case. I was just lost. I wasn't particularly good at anything. And ended up bottoming out in my late twenties and having a kind of rock bottom moment that then put me at that place at the base of the mountain that asked me that question. And so I think, I think it kind of depends on the man and the individual and where they are, you know, it's like, do they even need to, they need to get to the base of the mountain? Do they need to get to that place where they can even ask themselves that question? Speaker 1 (11:32) So, I mean, how many, how many guys use that? rock bottom moment to either be crushed by it or propelled by it. I have to assume that a lot of you guys have been on the receiving end or maybe been the men yourselves that get the call, the SOS call of like, okay, this is it. This is me peering over the abyss moment. What the fuck do I do? I don't even know how to get started. So yeah, I think both of those things. That's the most exciting moment. Speaker 2 (11:58) Yeah, Speaker 1 (11:58) so it's Speaker 2 (11:59) so interesting because I hear my thoughts. coming out in two different ways. So, you know, one of the things that's really scary is, I mean, I work with some people who are pretty successful, but... And 60 % of people that I've worked with have not been able to afford a dime. And so I work with a lot of like regular, like basically losers. And I own that term. It used to be what I was, arguably still am. And one of the scary things I hear about these stories, right? So I think all three of us, there's the spiritual hell, there's the hitting rock bottom, failing out of college, take your pick. One of the scary things is... Speaker 1 (12:40) Were you on Love Island? You win. Really? You didn't know this? I didn't know this. Oh, God. I've derailed everything. Season one. They're reversing right out the gates. Islander won season one, first person through the door. Speaker 3 (12:52) I think we should, at some point in this conversation, really just actually try to have the competition for the lowest low between the four of us. Speaker 2 (12:59) I was just thinking. I would. Speaker 2 (13:03) I would love to hear everybody's stories. Like, I mean, I know them. Speaker 1 (13:07) Let's do that. If everyone's comfortable, I'm happy to fucking play that. Yeah, Speaker 2 (13:10) can I talk about Rock Bottom for a second? So... Here's the scary thing. So when I work with people, we hear things like this, right? Like you hit rock bottom. And then one of the things, really scary things that I see is a romantization of rock bottom. People that I work with, they long for that final crash that will break them. Like we're talking abhorrent suicidality or everything that they are on the outside that is weak will be sloughed away. And a phoenix will rise from the ashes. And they long for this thing. And this is the really scary thing about rock bottom. Rock bottom doesn't exist. Rock bottom is just the lowest point that you happen to go before you turn around. Speaker 1 (13:55) Oh, yeah. Rock bottom can have a basement. And in the basement, there can be Speaker 2 (13:58) a Speaker 1 (13:58) trap. Speaker 2 (13:58) You can go Speaker 1 (13:58) lower and Speaker 2 (13:59) you can go lower and you can go lower. Right. So for people who are like hear these stories, I think we all see the value of rock bottom. And I think we're going to hear about that. But rock bottom is the moment that you decide to turn around. It is not this like artificial thing that one day, oh, if I fuck up my life more and if I fuck it up more, one day I will hit that rock bottom and then I'm going to roll the dice and I will be a god or I will be broken. And so they wait for that day. There's this longing for it, this hunger that like, oh, like I want to be tested. Right. And if I if I fall apart, I fall apart. That's fine. And in doing so, they actually fuck themselves because that day will never come. And what rock bottom is, and I know this is why I wanted to get this out before we hear the stories we're going to my my prediction is we're going to hear this. From Love Island too, right? There's one day that you decide. Rock bottom is a choice, not a place. Speaker 4 (14:56) But I do think it speaks to the cultural absence of any type of initiatory process for people to test themselves emotionally, spiritually, psychologically. And in the absence of that, the psyche and ultimately the identity and our sense of self still longs for that. So I agree 100%. I do think that it is. It is a choice point of, and that's what I say to guys a lot. It's like, you don't have to keep going down and keep sabotaging down. At some point, you just have to take a choice. You have to make a choice to say, I'm going to start, like, this is it. This is ultimately it. And I think sometimes people are waiting for that choice to be made for them. And that's part of the challenge. It's part of the challenge. It's like, well, maybe some external force. will make this decision. Maybe if it gets bad enough, then I'll just magically stop. And it's like, no, no, you'll stop when you choose to. You'll shift when you choose to. It's like the story of the dog on the porch, right? Where it's like there's an old man sitting on the porch with his dog and the mailman comes to deliver the mail every single day. And every day the mailman shows up and the dog is whimpering and whimpering and whimpering. And finally the mailman says, why is the dog? So like, it seems like the dog is in pain and the old man on the porch says, yeah, the dog's been laying on a nail. And the mailman's like, well, why doesn't he move? And he's like, I guess he'll move when it gets painful enough. And he decides. And I think that for most people, they're sitting on the nail. And that was me to a T, you know, it's like, I just didn't want to address the things that were causing me to sabotage and spiral and pull me down. Speaker 4 (16:39) There's a Speaker 3 (16:39) nuance. I think there's wisdom absolutely in what both of you are saying. There's this weird nuance and it's the word choice. I was going to. Yeah. On Speaker 4 (16:49) some Speaker 3 (16:50) level, there's like a choice and it feels like a choice. The other thing that I think people, when you do hit rock bottom and you have that experience, your identity gets cracked. Yeah. Who you think you are changes. Speaker 3 (17:04) there's a choicelessness in that as well. So there's a bit of grace that occurs. And so as there is a way in which you can, this is really geeking out, right? But as there is a way that you can say there is no rock bottom, there's also a way of saying like, there is a choicelessness of hitting that rock bottom. And I think the thing that gets missed in all of it is the... I'm responsible. I'm responsible. I'm responsible. I'm responsible is often slows down the process. As Speaker 1 (17:36) opposed to what? Who is responsible if you're not responsible? Speaker 3 (17:39) Yeah, that's a good one. So if Speaker 2 (17:43) I, I'm excited. Speaker 3 (17:44) I'm looking at the cross-legged, I'm looking at the cross-legged side of the table. Speaker 2 (17:47) Okay. So, so, so many thoughts and I can't, here's what. My first experience of stepping into this room was an intimidation. My next experience was sort of feeling camaraderie. And now what I'm feeling is that there is something that I know that I don't know how to share. There is like an, the answer is on this table. I feel, I feel this very strongly, this not to crack, like the answer is here, but I actually don't think that any of us can give it by ourselves. And what I heard from you, Connor, is like, you know, you have to make the choice. And I kind of said this, right? You have to turn, think like the rock bottom is the moment that you decide to come up. And then you were saying, yeah, you have to make a choice. And then my first question, how the fuck do you make that choice? Speaker 2 (18:41) And I hear what Joe is saying because the really scary thing about this, what I mean, this thing I think is like sort of even rock bottom, I think is on the way up. Speaker 3 (18:51) Yeah, that's why earlier I said I'm excited when somebody has that call because you've already done some of the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Speaker 2 (18:59) there's this weird, like, I think that the diagram makes sense, but my sense is like, this is something that we don't talk about and I don't know how to explain. Like, my answer is karma. Like, my answer is like, this is meant to happen. And that doesn't mean we can get into like destiny and stuff. I don't mean destiny, but. I'll maybe share a little bit about. So I have a question that I'll toss out and then you guys decide if we want to get to biographies or not. But, you know, how does that choice get made? Right. What is that catalyzing factor? Because when I think about my job, my job is like people come into my office and I'm sure y'all's is basically the same. Right. And it's like, how do we get this choice to happen? And there's a part of me that even recoils against the word quicker. Because I think quicker is feeding into the problem that is going to cause you dissatisfaction at the top. Speaker 3 (19:53) Right. Just like Speaker 2 (19:54) you have to choose it also Speaker 3 (19:57) can Speaker 2 (19:57) cause you problems at Speaker 3 (19:58) the top. Speaker 2 (19:58) Exactly. Because what's going to happen is if you say, okay, you have to make the choice, right? So a thousand people are going to wake up tomorrow and they're going to say, rock bottom is when I make the choice. And they're not able to make the choice. I guess Speaker 1 (20:09) I haven't hit rock bottom yet. Well, Speaker 2 (20:12) or or we're telling them. Right. So they listen and they say how and then they're not able to make that choice. And then they feel even worse about themselves because rock bottom is the moment that you make a choice. And look at me, me fucker. I can't do it. Other people are doing it, but I can't do it. What's wrong with me? And so I get the choice thing. I mean, and so there's something here that we're all circling around the drain and I'm hoping that we can get, Speaker 1 (20:39) is there a better framing than making a choice at rock bottom? Is there some other way? If I give a Speaker 3 (20:44) stab at the answer to the question, like what is it besides, what is it besides choice? To me, it's self-awareness. If you understand yourself enough, just like if I am looking at a, watch that's broken and I'm like, oh, how, let me understand the watch. Let me understand the watch. At some point, I'm going to understand it enough where fixing it is going to be obvious. The thing that's going to happen is going to be obvious. I can only say that that worked for me and other people, but I suspect there's other ways too. But my experience is when people start really recognizing how their mind works, what self-abuse pattern looks like, that looking for the bottom is just another way of having self-abuse. Telling myself I have to have choice is just another form of self-abuse. When they start recognizing the self-abuse and the results of that self-abuse, my experience is then grace, surrender. Something happens where it's beyond them because the same way it's just like that click that happens in your mind and you're like, oh, this is how you fix the watch. That's my experience of it. 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Elements' most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash. a lot of wisdom. Speaker 4 (22:50) I think in a way, I'll speak for myself, my personal experience of it in some ways was a surrendering to the truth of my existence and a surrendering, a choosing to surrender to like, wow, this is really true. I am doing these things, or I do feel this way, or I have been acting in this way. And I think also an allowing of Speaker 4 (23:19) life, source, God, universe, whatever frame you want to put on it, to have more of an influence in my life. That, you know, like there's this saying, like, life is making me happen. You know, instead of I'm making my life happen and all the choices are on me, I think that oftentimes trauma, abuse, being lost, those types of things move us into a mistrust of life and into a, I'm going to try and control life. And so I think part of the, place that we reach is I'm going to surrender to life is having an influence on me. And I'm going to surrender to the truth of my existence of how I feel and what's happening. And instead of staying in the narration and the story of, well, here's what I think about it. And here's how I feel about it. Here's what I should be doing. And I can't do that. And I should do this. And what the fuck's wrong with me for not doing it this way? Instead of just sinking into this is true. this is true without story, without judgment, without, it's just like, this is true. This Speaker 1 (24:18) is your frame around no problem. Yeah. Right. And this is your frame around and that's okay. Yeah. Um, which is fucking beautiful. The same duality that you guys have got in your own practice when I've done stuff with you guys, it's like this. Speaker 1 (24:34) letting go. Speaker 3 (24:34) And when I hear him say, see what is, accept what is, it's just another way of saying self-awareness to different ways. And it's very cool to hear how what I just said could be interpreted X amount of ways, but the Venn diagram of what you said and I said reduces that. Speaker 4 (24:56) Oh, that's cool. And then the way he says it Speaker 1 (24:57) reduces. The territory becomes smaller because they're. Iron sharpening iron. Which is really cool. Does anyone want to throw a rock bottom story into the mix and whether anyone's there? Love Speaker 2 (25:08) Island, bro. Let's go. Or Peking. Was that Peking? Speaker 1 (25:13) No, absolutely not Peking. I can certainly give you the Peden, I guess, like the Love Island rock bottom story, at least that one, which was. Speaker 1 (25:23) It's kind of the Champions League World Cup final, right, of being a professional party boy, especially in the UK, which is very small. And the ways that you can extricate yourself from this highly dense, very competitive, very classist system are limited. You know, the US is 4 % of the world's population, but produces 50 % of its millionaires last year, right? The UK is not even on the league. So I go and do this. thing. I have this opportunity to go and be the guy, finally. And even the way that I got on was done in the way that the rest of my life was constructed, which was I'd already done one thing previously, made myself very useful to the casting producers that were a part of ITV generally, the company at Channel 3 in the UK that was producing the show. And I'd helped them. I'd found them new people for other shows that they were going on. I'd advise them all of the different nightclubs to go to. They wanted Geordies. They wanted Newcastle kids because it was a big show. Our equivalent of Jersey Shore was ripping at that time. So I'm like finding them all like cool people because I know everybody that parties around town. So I know the most degenerate or the most outgoing or the cleverest or the whatever. So I've done all of this stuff. And then it's my, they're like, hey, we're going to give you, do you want to come and screen test for this thing? Just come and see me. Come and hang out. We haven't talked for ages. Why don't you just come and do the thing? And before I knew it, I'm like on a plane on my way to fucking Palma, Mallorca with with a chaperone and I do this thing, I have this experience surrounded by people that were the person I thought I was. I thought I was this very extroverted, lad around town, party boy, biggest name on campus, B-knock, biggest name on campus guy. And the thing when you go and do a show like that is because it's filmed 24 hours a day. what is captured up until 2 a.m., gets produced and published and broadcast at 7 p.m. the next night. And it's just this permanent treadmill of constant ambient surveillance. But there's no distraction. There's no phone. There's no TV. There's no YouTube. There's no books. There's no friends. There's no nothing. So it is what I later sort of came to reflect on as a fatal dose of contrast. It was me coming up against the projection of me embodied in with 11 other people that were living in the house with me. And there's half the number of beds as there are people. So you sleep with a different girl every night or you sleep with the same girl all of the time. And then I left. And it was a surprise eviction that they were doing to like spice things up or whatever. So you didn't have the... time to sort of say your goodbyes that maybe some of the other guys did. So it's kind of a little bit of a chaotic situation. And I don't know whether you guys know, but the south coast of Mallorca, which is where Parma is, is one of the best night sky viewing spots in the world. It's got one of the clearest skies that you can. And we finish up and we get taken off to this couple's hotel, like a sandals resort type. thing, which is where they must have just been able to find some lodging to ship the people out. You still can't be seen by the press. You can't be seen by anyone. So you're completely contained in this whole thing. And it's been this whirlwind trip. And I had this media lockdown week for a week before I went in. And then I've been on TV. And I read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. So I was in a fucking psychedelic fugue state for the entirety of the time that I was on there. It's Speaker 2 (28:31) a Speaker 1 (28:31) bad idea. It'd be a piece of advice to anyone going on reality TV. Do not read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho before you go on. I Speaker 2 (28:36) think that's the best advice, most applicable advice that anyone's going to Speaker 1 (28:39) get. Speaker 2 (28:41) Because I'm in fucking Speaker 1 (28:42) like south coast of Spain and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like Santiago. I'm just like, I mean, I'm in Spain and I'm taking my shepherd on this trip and I'm seeing the sunrise. And I've got no distraction. I'm like just like swimming in the first book I've read fully for something that wasn't university in like a decade. And like that was all of it was very chaotic. Anyway, so I get shipped away. and taken off with more of a chaperone. We get deposited at this couple's hotel and we're given a, we had a drink limit because they realized that people would get way too leery and it would be kind of messy and that they wanted more of a fluffy family friendly kind of show. So they didn't want people to be pissed and like fighting and stuff like that. And I'm given, we had stubby beers, like 330 mil, smaller than a new tonic, 330 mil beers for the entirety of the time that we were there. And I got out and I was given a 500 mil beer. And like you spend the whole day in the sun. There is a bit of you that's, especially if you're around. like chicks in bikinis. You're like, fucking give me a beer, dude. You know, I don't even smoke, but I was like, I'll rip a cig. Like it just isn't, I don't know. There's some primal part of you that's like, oh, he's going to do stuff. So I get a tall beer. And finally, for the first time in over a month now, including the media lockdown, I'm on my own. And I have this moment of no surveillance, no microphone around my neck, which you needed to put on, even if you were going to the bathroom in case you said something interesting or whatever, no surveillance and no one with me. And I like sort of dumped all my stuff into this room and walked out and looked up at the sky and I've never seen it before. And I hope that I get to see it again. Speaker 1 (30:11) the full Milky Way galaxy just strewn. Like someone had taken luminescent glitter and thrown it across the sky from end to fucking end. Because this sort of couple's hotel is middle of nowhere with lights all turned off at night and sort of huts and all that you can hear are crickets. Like that classic sort of Spanish sound, very quiet, except for just the chirping of crickets. And I looked up and I saw this thing and it was almost like the universe was laughing at Speaker 3 (30:38) me. Speaker 1 (30:38) It was almost like after this chaotic thing and reading the book and I'm Santiago and going through all this stuff. And what the fuck? Speaker 3 (30:44) I Speaker 1 (30:44) thought that I was the person that was supposed to be the person that's supposed to be here. Fuck, I'm not. All of these people are the person I thought I was. And that means who the fuck am I? And like, oh my God, am I having an exit? This is where it happened. This is classic me. I'm having an existential crisis in the middle of fucking Love Island. Like that is just the most Chris Williamson thing that could ever. Oh, and there's the fucking Milky Way. That's the first time I've ever seen it as a person that loves astronomy and like is obsessed with the stars. And fucking Interstellar had come out like only a couple of months before. So I was still obsessed with that. And I'm Matthew McConaughey now, fuck Santiago. And all of this stuff had happened. And that it wasn't, especially with my health journey, I've become very skeptical of acute solutions to chronic problems. But in retrospect, you look back and you go, oh, there was something about that. I haven't, what's that line about? Life has to be lived forward, but only makes sense in rebose. Speaker 1 (31:37) I am yet to find a clouds parted. And at that moment I knew it's much closer to the clouds parted. And in retrospect, I knew that at that moment, I knew something closer to that, if that makes sense. Anyway, I looked up and saw the Milky Way and it was just, I can still see it now. It was so fucking sick. And it ran completely, uh, sort of whatever that is perpendicular to the way I was looking. So just as if someone had painted it on the fucking ceiling and it was the sickest thing. And I went home and I was like, okay. Between the book and the existential crisis and the Milky Way, it feels like I need to do some more self-investigation. And that was me at 27, 27. And shortly after that, I do six months sober for the first time. Not that I ever had a particularly big problem with alcohol, but I was a party boy. So I drank every two weeks, but very heavily. And then start meditating and start doing breath work and really take things seriously. And it's the same. coalescent time that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris and Alain de Botton from the School of Life are coming online and I'm listening to more Rogan and I get introduced to Naval Ravikant. All of this stuff starts happening at the same time that sort of pushes me in this direction toward paying more attention to myself and being more self-investigatory. So yeah, is Love Island a strange way to talk about Rock Bottom? Yeah, I suppose. But from an existential standpoint, it really fucking felt like it. It was like, oh, you have constructed your entire identity around being someone that you're not. And this is about as like about as magnificent and certainly about as public of a way to experience an existential crisis. So that's my pull the pin on the grenade and throw that one into the beautiful. Cool. Speaker 2 (33:19) Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, man. Yeah. Speaker 3 (33:22) Yeah. Thank you. It strikes me the identity being such a critical part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4 (33:29) And the collapse with the projections. And the collapse. Right? Just having the mirror so... Inescapable. Harshly... Literally Speaker 1 (33:36) inescapable. And with different accents and different sizes and different shapes all running up to me and going like, what's going on? Do you want to talk about this? Do you know that I mugged that bird