Can You Actually Trust the SPF on Your Sunscreen? with Ava Matthews

Mirror Mirror with Amy Chang

Host Amy Chang sits down with Ava Matthews, co-founder of Ultra Violette, to discuss the complexities of sunscreen technology and regulation.

Key takeaways

The FDA has not added new ingredients to the US SPF monograph in 27 years, limiting innovation compared to Europe and Asia.
Ultra Violette voluntarily recalled their 'Lean Screen' product after testing showed inconsistent protection levels following a CHOICE report controversy.

Main topics

SPF testing variability
Mineral vs. chemical filters

Notable quotes

The consumer absolutely deserves and should be/be able to trust what is labeled is actually what they're getting.

Conclusion

Listeners gain a clearer understanding of how to interpret sunscreen l

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) The consumer absolutely deserves and should be able to trust what is labeled is actually what they're getting. I Speaker 1 (0:06) think most consumers see the label where it says SPF 50 and it's almost like a promise of, okay, I can just blindly trust that this is going to be SPF 50 Speaker 2 (0:16) and Speaker 1 (0:16) protect me. Speaker 2 (0:17) And I think what we learned through this and what it tells us about SPF testing, SPF testing is extremely variable. Here Speaker 1 (0:23) in the US, the FDA approved a brand new chemicals. Well, I guess not brand new to the rest of the world. been around for 20-something years, but now brand new to the US. There's been no innovation. There's been no additions Speaker 2 (0:34) to the SPF monograph in 27 years. Speaker 1 (0:37) My guest today has spent over a decade working inside of the beauty industry at some of the biggest names, Mecca, L'Oreal, Procter & Gamble, before she went off to co-found her sunscreen brand, Ultraviolet, in 2019. This Australian sunscreen brand created the term skin screen to aptly describe the light texture, the skincare-like. feel, and performance of her sunscreen products. Today, we're going to unpack why sunscreen has evolved so differently around the world. We're going to dive deep into the latest sunscreen filter that just got FDA approved for use here in the United States, why it matters, how it works, where you can find it, and when. And of course, we're going to touch on the sunscreen controversy that shook the world and made consumers question, can they trust the label on? the sunscreen bottle. By the end of this episode, you will understand the basic mechanisms of how sunscreens work, how to choose the right one for you, and where the future of sunscreen is headed. And now, welcome my guest today, Ava Matthews, co-founder of Ultraviolet. Hi, Speaker 2 (1:49) Ava. Welcome. So happy to have you. Hey, Amy. Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. Speaker 1 (1:53) So for someone who's never heard of Ultraviolet, tell us a little bit about the brand and why you felt it needed... to be brought forth. Speaker 2 (2:01) We're global and we really blur the lines between SPF and skincare. And I've been in beauty my entire career. I've grown up in product development, brand building. And when I was working for a large Australian retailer running their kind of private label brands, I really noticed that even in Australia, SPF was considered an afterthought. It was very seasonal. It was very mass. You'd have these big pump packs. And I could see that the consumer was buying premium skincare and spending a lot of money on their skincare and either not investing in SPF at all or having to kind of live with formulations that they didn't really love. You know, you might have a La Mer skincare routine and then you... you know, you have to buy SPF from the chemist or if a brand had it, there was one SKU, one SPF product and there was nothing really beautiful. And I felt, and I've got a co-founder, so I met my co-founder Beck at that retailer. We worked together and we really felt that SPF should be brought into the skincare category. It was kind of sitting outside. It was a seasonal product. Often retailers would lump it in with. you know, limited edition or holiday or body, it was very much not a part of a skincare conversation at all. And we really felt like there was an opportunity for formulations to feel beautiful, to look beautiful, and to really kind of just be treated like another skincare product, which was our aim is to kind of get everyone wearing SPF every day. And to do that, it kind of needs to be inserted naturally into a skincare or a beauty routine. And no one was really doing that. Even in Australia with... it being a hot a lot of the year, the UV index being, you know, quite high for a lot of the year, it still was very seasonal. All media or marketing campaigns were shot on a beach. It was very, you know, people would only talk about it in the middle of summer. And that was kind of part of our aim was to de-seasonalize it and make it a part of the skincare conversation, which was at this point, it was the late, it was, you know, 2016, 17. Speaker 1 (4:12) when we were Speaker 2 (4:12) developing the brand. And so skincare was really growing and there were really exciting brands coming in like Drunk Elephant and it was just a big skincare time. But sun care was still left out of the conversation. Speaker 1 (4:24) Yeah, it's been interesting to see just the history and trajectory of sunscreen. It was the early 1900s that the zinc oxide, titanium oxide, those physical blockers were first created. And at that point, it was like applying white toothpaste to your face and diaper cream. Exactly. And it wasn't until the 1970s that then we got chemical filters, the physical formulations of sunscreen became much more elegant and now leading us into today. But what would you say has shifted that has caused sunscreen that started out as something very simple to now become a very complicated space? I think for many consumers, they're still having a tough time understanding all the nuance. within sunscreen. It Speaker 2 (5:10) can be complicated. And I guess part of our job is to help simplify it. It shouldn't be as complicated as it is. And I think there's a lot of misinformation out there, which you would know, especially on social media. But the reality is, you know, you need to find a sunscreen that you like to wear. You need to wear it daily. You need to reapply if the situation calls for it. And most of all, despite whether it's mineral or chemical. you know, they work pretty similarly but slightly different. And mineral filters are often, well, chemical filters are often stigmatized and that there's a bit of a narrative that they're not good for you, which is completely false. And mineral sunscreens are often touted as being the safer option. And they both do different. They work the same, but I guess from the consumer point of view, they feel different. And depending on your skin type. You might choose one or the other or depending on your preference. And some people do have a preference for zinc oxide formulations, but they have limitations. So yeah, we really try and make it easy for people. We've got a broad range of SPFs. We don't just do one or two SKUs. We've got a range of different kind of finishes, types, both mineral and chemical because mineral sunscreens will leave a white cast and that kind of limits who can wear them. So we really try and give options. to the customer and simplify it as much as possible. But it is unnecessarily complicated, I think. And also because it kind of sits on the precipice of all kind of health and beauty. And so I think that's probably where some of the, you know, the tension can lie. Yeah. Speaker 1 (6:50) It started out as this product that you would apply when you went to the beach. Speaker 2 (6:53) Yes. Speaker 1 (6:54) And that was it. And then it moved into now it's a beauty product. Now it is to safeguard the investment that one makes in their very expensive serums, creams, or in-office treatments that sensitize the skin. And so, you know, people began to become more focused on this. And we have physical blockers. We have chemical filters. Could you explain for the listeners the difference between those two options that are? available when formulating a sunscreen? Sure. Speaker 2 (7:25) So there are, there are two physical filters and there are lots of chemical filters and there are some chemical filters that operate like mineral or physical filters. So they, they do really work effectively the same. There was a big misconception. And in fact, It was taught in dermatology school. So you'd probably hear dermatologists talking about this, but they've since updated that you, that mineral sunscreens reflect the rays and that's why people call them blockers, but they're actually not. They, they're absorbed and maybe a little bit is reflected, but chemical UV filters work. It's maybe a hundred percent is absorbed into, and then turned into heat, negligible heat. But, and that's how they, they kind of protect you, but effectively they work the same. You know, if you. quite sensitive or you're kind of prone to skin that has some sort of inflammatory condition, rosacea, eczema, you might prefer a zinc oxide based formula. Zinc is naturally an anti-inflammatory, so it's good for inflamed kind of skin conditions. But as I said, it's a white powder, so it's not wearable for everyone. It starts as a white powder, both of them, titanium dioxide and zinc. Speaker 1 (8:31) Yeah, that might be a reason why you would choose a mineral because Speaker 2 (8:34) you've got a skin condition, whereas chemical UV filters, you've got a lot more variety with how you formulate. There's no white cast. The downside is for some of the traditional UV filters and certainly the ones available in the US, there may be some skin irritation if you're quite sensitive. But other than that, they work the same. There's no, sunscreens don't cause cancer regardless of whether they're mineral or chemical and they work very similarly. Speaker 1 (8:59) Historically, the understanding has been around physical blockers, zinc oxide, titanium oxide, that they... they are a physical shield and that the UVA and UVB rays from the sun just bounce off. But you're saying that, you know, research has found that they actually absorb the UVA and UVB rays. And does it get turned into heat in the same way as it would with a chemical filter? Correct. Speaker 2 (9:24) Negligible heat. Yeah. Very small amount. And other fluorescents and other things as well. It's not just heat. So yes, that is. That is correct. That's how they work. Speaker 1 (9:34) The argument that I've always heard from dermatologists or other skincare experts online is that the physical blockers are the best because they block both UVA and UVB rays. UVA are the ones that cause the intrinsic, the deep aging because they're affecting collagen production and they're affecting the DNA of cells. Whereas UVB, think of like A for aging, B for burn. is what causes you to get a sunburn. And so some of the chemical filters, and this is the argument that I've heard for why a physical blocker is better than a chemical filter, is because while a physical blocker blocks both UVA and UVB, not all chemical filters block both. What are your thoughts on this? Speaker 2 (10:19) Yes, so zinc oxide is a broad spectrum UV filter. So they're correct, you know, that is correct in terms of if you've got a purely zinc oxide formulation, it will... give you broad spectrum protection. But in the US it does not have to be broad spectrum. So you can find sunscreens. I'm sure there's not many, but there are sunscreens on the market that only protect from UVB and that's probably because they don't incorporate any UVA filters. So zinc oxide is a broad spectrum UV filter, but it is, it often needs other filters to kind of strengthen that protection or, you know, they use, there are boosters now. And that's why you would use for chemical filters. There are broad spectrum chemical filters. Bermatrizol is one, which is the latest, the latest that one that has been approved by the FDA. But you do often need to use a combination of chemical filters to get protection, but yeah, so it's not zinc oxide. You can use by itself. Titanium is a UVB filter that protects from UVB. Zinc oxide does both. And that's probably why they're, they're kind of being, maybe dermatologists are saying it does both, but there are other ways to get there using chemical filters. in combination with one another. Speaker 1 (11:26) One of the other things that has really complicated the regular consumer's understanding of sunscreen over the years is how sunscreen technology has evolved in different places around the world. Could you speak a bit about this? Speaker 2 (11:41) Yeah, and look... How has this happened? So there's a couple of reasons. So in some markets, the US, Australia and Canada, SPF is treated like a drug. In Asia and Europe, it is a cosmetic product. So obviously you can imagine, you know, how drugs are kind of treated through the FDA or the TGA or Health Canada, the bodies that regulate and govern drugs, how that those restrictions kind of could inhibit technology and innovation. Whereas you're dealing in Asia and Europe, it's a cosmetic. So there's not as many, I guess. hurdles to jump over, hoops to jump through. So that is, I guess, effectively why there are less filters in a market like the US because of how the FDA regulate. And in Asia and Europe, there's a wider palette of filters to use. And the same in Australia, there is also a wider palette of filters to use. And I think, you know, if you're the FDA and you're regulating drugs and food and sunscreen is probably not super high on the priority list in terms of allowing innovation, whereas Australia with the rates of skin cancer, it's higher on the priority list. So, well, you know, I can't talk for government bodies, but you would assume that. So more innovation kind of has come through. So Australia is broadly in line with Europe and Asia in terms of what filters they allow. There's a few that you can't get that are being used in Asia, I mean, Korea at the moment, but I guess there's a faster pathway for them to become approved in Australia. And it's different. Canada's kind of sits somewhere in the middle of the US and the rest of the world. And I guess Canada often is possibly treated like an afterthought. So if you're an American brand, you're probably making a formulation that can work in both America and Canada. At Ultraviolet, we've done things the most complicated way. And we often have three different versions of a formulation for each different region. So we'll have one for Australia, Europe, and rest of world because more or less, they've got the same. filters available. We'll have one for Canada because they've got somewhere in the middle. And then the US has a much more limited palette of filters. And I think there's, you know, definitely a misconception or there's a conversation that American sunscreens are not as good as the rest of the world.